285 lines
13 KiB
Plaintext
285 lines
13 KiB
Plaintext
America Online
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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November 21, 1989 10:00 pm eastern time
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Topic: Apple IIGS System Software 5.0.2
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Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
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AFL Dyfet Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight's topic is
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System Software 5.0.2
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AFL Dyfet We'll be using PROTOCOL this evening, so if you have a question,
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type a "?"
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AFL Dyfet on a line by itself, or if you have a comment on the current
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topic, type a "!"
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AFL Dyfet on a line by itself.
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Mac Hater, you have the floor now :)
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Mac Hater Is 5.03 coming out soon? There are still a few bugs in 5.02
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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Matt DTS Apple has announced no plans for any system software beyond 5.0.2.
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(Of course, they've said...
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Matt DTS ...there will *be* some, but no specifics.) GA.
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Mac Hater Apple does recognize the bugs though, right? done
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AFL Dyfet I am sure that DTS continues to catalog any new bug reports as
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before, and so I
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AFL Dyfet am sure that they are at least fully aware of what problems may
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exist.
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Mac Hater sounds good. ga
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AFL Dyfet I would add that if anyone does have any bugs to report with
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System Software
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AFL Dyfet 5.02, they should be contacting Apple. Never assume all bugs are
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already
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AFL Dyfet known by them :).
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe that the next question is from Dwight. You have
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the floor now.
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DwightW1 we still are unable to hook to a scanner with the new GS/OS
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software? ga.
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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Matt DTS Actually, it's only with 5.0 and later that you *can* hook a
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scanner up; previous versions of the
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Matt DTS SCSI drivers would not recognize things other than hard disks or
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CD-ROMs. However, Apple has not
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Matt DTS supplied a scanner driver at this point. (But it is now possible
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to write one.)
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Matt DTS 5.0.2 has no new features over 5.0. It is merely a maintenance
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release. See GS/OS Technical Note #1
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Matt DTS for all the details. GA.
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DwightW1 i see... now for the driver..........
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DwightW1 ga
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from GS Matt..GA Matt...
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GS Matt Are there any plans to make the GS tools re-entrant in upcoming
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versions...
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GS Matt ...to allow programs like MultiFinder GS to be written? ga
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AFL Dyfet Strange this would be brought up...GA Matt...I also have a few
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comments to add.
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Matt DTS Not that anything I say *would* discourage speculation <sigh>, but
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Apple people really can't...
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Matt DTS ...comment on this one way or another, because either way would
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imply that we are or aren't going
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Matt DTS to do something. GA.
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
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Dave Lyons I can't comment about future plans either, but I should note
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that
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Dave Lyons a MultiFinder sort of thing does not require reentrancy of the
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usual
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Dave Lyons sort (the kind you have to worry about w/ toolbox calls during
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interrupts). ga
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AFL Dyfet To further elaborate on Dave's comments, re-entrancy itself is NOT
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a real
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AFL Dyfet limitation to multi-tasking, in general. It only represents a
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slight
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AFL Dyfet 'challenge' to overcome. I was, and may still, be putting up a
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short series of
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AFL Dyfet articles related to multi-tasking within the GS environment as it
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exists
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AFL Dyfet today.
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GS Matt Okay guys...(dreams of MultiFinder GS and Outline Fonts in System
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6.0.)...ga!
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AFL Dyfet Okay, does anyone else have any questions or comments at this
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point? That
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AFL Dyfet Queue is looking awfully empty...
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Windrider, GA, you have the floor now.
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Windrider5 for the novice .. could you define re-entrancy and multi-tasking
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AFL Dyfet Multi-tasking means, in the simplest sense, that your machine
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would be doing
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AFL Dyfet two or more things at the same time. In some operating systems,
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for example,
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AFL Dyfet the user can run multiple applications simulataneously, with
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system resources
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AFL Dyfet and CPU time devided up for each running application. Maybe Coach
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would do
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AFL Dyfet better at explaining this :)..GA Coach...
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Coach101 Chicken :) ...
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AFL Dyfet :)
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Coach101 Well from a large system (hold the boos) point of view there is a
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very
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Coach101 fine line between multi-tasking and timesharing. But both (in a
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single
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Coach101 cpu) system involve, as Dyfet said, having the system working on
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more than
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Coach101 one task "sort-of" simultaneously. With a single CPU the machine
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is, at
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Coach101 any finite instant in time, working on only one task. But if the
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machine
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Coach101 switches tasks fast enough and if one of the tasks has a lot of
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idle
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Coach101 time (like the time it takes a user to type, or think of what to
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type
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Coach101 or click) then the illusion of the machine doing two things at
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once is
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Coach101 given to the user. .... Re-entrancy...
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Coach101 When you write a subroutine/function/procedure you will store
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various
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Coach101 quantities in various locations. Now, if your code were to be
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re-entered,
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Coach101 which means while you are executing your code the system switches
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tasks
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Coach101 and enters your code again at the beginning, then you code "could"
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get
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Coach101 confused as to the value of a variable; like, which incarnation of
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the
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Coach101 variable MyIndex is to be used. This is a particular problem
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with
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Coach101 "static" variables and almost never a problem with auto variables.
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Here
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Coach101 again there is a fine line between the definitions of "re-entrant"
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and
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Coach101 "recursive". Recursive means that a function/procedure is allowed
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to call
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Coach101 itself (think of a "factorial" function for a good example).
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Re-entrancy
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Coach101 means that the function can be re-entered at any time and from
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anywhere...
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Coach101 I hope I was not too wordy and helped with my explanation....
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ga
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AFL Dyfet That is a very good explanation, Coach :)...Okay, I see the Queue
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is once
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AFL Dyfet again empty, and just waiting for more comments or questions :)
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Coach101 Yeah, my fingers are all warmed up now too :)
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Coach, you have the floor now...
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Coach101 Lets see if I can phrase this such that Matt will not have to hit
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his
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Coach101 macro about unannounced products, ideas, etc....
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Coach101 Apple has given us 5.0 (and its derivatives) which was a major
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departure
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Coach101 and improvement over P16 and GS/OS 4.0. If I draw a parallel to
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the
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Coach101 ProDos-8 environment (where *nothing* other than fixes is done),
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would it be
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Coach101 safe to assume that GS/OS has not yet reached that plateau. Put
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another
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Coach101 way, should one expect that some more major software things are a
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distinct
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Coach101 possibility in the future? ga
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AFL Dyfet There have been a number of things hinted at in recent Apple II
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Technotes
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AFL Dyfet already, such as a desire to produce communication drivers...I see
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Matt would
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AFL Dyfet like to add some comments, GA Matt :)
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Matt DTS 1) GS/OS is logically much more extensible (through FSTs and
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drivers) than P8 ever was.
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Matt DTS 2) P8 is also a special case. It is occupying nearly all the
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memory it has reserved in the 64K
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Matt DTS space, and adding new features would be difficult. GS/OS does not
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have this problem yet, as long as
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Matt DTS Apple is willing to make future versions require a larger base
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system if necessary.
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Matt DTS I don't think the IIgs System Software is at a point where no more
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changes *can* be made without
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Matt DTS serious problems, which is where ProDOS 8 currently sits. GA.
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Coach101 Thank you...
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AFA Gary J there's a safe answer :)
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Coach101 But always read between the lines.... He could have said.....
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AFL Dyfet One can get a strong indication as to some areas that Apple has
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had some
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AFL Dyfet interest in future enhancements from things they have said and
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published in
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AFL Dyfet tech notes and other sources.
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AFA Gary J Yes. Reading between the lines.. the future of the Apple II
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looks bright.
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AFL Dyfet GA Coach...you have the floor again...
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Coach101 Apple is currently pushing both CD-Rom and Object Oriented
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Programming
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Coach101 pretty heavy in the Mac area. The CD-Rom player will also work on
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the
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Matt DTS !
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Coach101 II-GS. Two questions... 1) Is Apple going to pursue the OOP
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approach
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Coach101 on the II-GS (like provide tools) and 2) has Apple seen any signs
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of
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Coach101 commercial CD-Rom offerings for the II line yet... ga
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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Matt DTS Apple is very interested in hearing from developers about what
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kind of object-oriented tools they'd
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Matt DTS like to see. We obviously believe OOP to be the wave of the
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future for most programming, but how
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Matt DTS that applies to the Apple II depends on the needs of our
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developers and their capabilities to use
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Matt DTS the OOP tools to produce creative and inventive products. Please
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send your comments to Developer
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Matt DTS Tools at the address listed in the back of the APW or MPW IIgs
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manuals.
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Matt DTS 2) I personally have not seen Apple II-specific CD-ROM products;
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I imagine this is largely due to
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Matt DTS the 8-bit limitation of four partitions of 32 MB each (ProDOS).
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Using a different file system makes
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Matt DTS it *IIgs* specific, which is a smaller market. However, Apple
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does have information on a starter
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Matt DTS kit for all developers (Apple II included) which can get your
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product burned into 100 CD-ROMs
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Matt DTS including mastering, for $1500. Contact AIIDTS through normal
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channels for more information. GA.
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AFL Dyfet Okay, thank you Matt..GA Coach...
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Coach101 I sae that price Matt and was very IMPRESSED! One question
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though, was
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Coach101 how much of a deal it was. That is, not saying that Apple was not
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giving
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Coach101 the developer a good deal, but what kind of volume would one have
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to
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Coach101 have in order to get prices like that on their own... If you
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know? ga
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Matt DTS I really can't answer that; I have no idea. The evangelists for
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multimedia also do a lot of Apple II
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Matt DTS work and they put together the package for our developers; they
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really need to answer that. I
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Matt DTS think the prices for volumes of 1,000 are less are *fairly*
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reasonable, but I can't quote numbers. GA
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Coach101 Thanks...
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AFL Dyfet Okay, are there any further comments on Coach's question?
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DwightW1 (i'm not sure i understood it... can it be rephrased?
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Coach101 The question or the answer :)
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DwightW1 the question please :)...
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Matt DTS (We only have a few minutes left - let someone else rephrase it!
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:)
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AFA Gary J heheh
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Matt DTS <just kidding, coach...>
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Coach101 Matt is always good at being terse and correct. GA Matt :)
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AFL Dyfet :)
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Coach101 I do it via FlashNote
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Chaos 89 Can you give a short explanation of OOP?
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Matt DTS I don't think there is a short explanation of OOP. :)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Chaos, I see you also have a question not very easy to
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explain in a quick
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AFL Dyfet summary :)...Well, OOP, or Object Oriented Programming, is more a
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different way
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AFL Dyfet of approaching programming problems than anything else. It
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involves the idea
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AFL Dyfet ...the idea that maybe I will be saved by another fine explanation
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from Coach:)
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AFA Gary J :)
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Coach101 But we are out of time....
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DwightW1 (thanks coach101)
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AFA Gary J nah.. :)
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AFL Dyfet Now, Coach, that would be the easy way out :)....Seriously,
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perhaps someone
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Coach101 Matt and Dave will probably have to correct me here since I am not
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all
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Coach101 that up on OOP, but....
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AFL Dyfet knows of a good book to introduce one to OOP...
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Coach101 Nope.... Thats a lot like trying to explain HyperCard in a
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paragraph ...
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Rowdy2 How about Borland's Turbo Pascal Object Oriented Programming
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Guide? :)
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AFA Gary J There's a book on OOP for the Macintosh.. (in APDA)
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AFL Dyfet I would suggest, Chaos, that you try posting that question in of
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the message
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AFL Dyfet forums, and let people respond there, where they will have more
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time and space
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AFA Gary J APDA = APDAlog
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AFL Dyfet for a helpful explanation.
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Chaos 89 Thanks
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Coach101 Maybe we should have an OOP night to gather opinions and
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comments....
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AFL Dyfet That is an interesting idea, also, Coach...
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AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any more questions or comments for tonight?
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Coach101 Its kind of boring when you cant ask questions that will cause
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Matt
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Coach101 to answer "summer", or "winter", or :)
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AFA Gary J ..to use his macro?
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AFL Dyfet :)
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Dave Lyons I can!
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Dave Lyons Matt...what season comes after spring but before fall?
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AFA Gary J heheh
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Matt DTS Baseball season.
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AFL Dyfet :)
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AFA Gary J :)
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