819 lines
38 KiB
Plaintext
819 lines
38 KiB
Plaintext
AppleLink
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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August 22, 1989 10:00 p.m. eastern time
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Topic: GS/OS and System Software 5.0
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Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
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AFL Dyfet Hello Parik!
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AFA Parik does anyone know what the maximum size of a segment can be?
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JimMensch yes, code segment max is 64K
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AFA Parik MM gives a error if a segment is 65536 bytes...$201
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AFL Dyfet If you like 3 byte zero page pointers, your data can be as large
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as you want :)
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JimMensch all other segments can be as large as you want
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AFL Dyfet Well, I see some people are starting to filter in...
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Coach101 Montagne, ever come up with any leads on 65536 unclaimed
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interrupts?
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AFL Dyfet We will be officially starting in a minute or two, Scotty :)
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Montagne No proof, if that's want you mean.
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AFL Dyfet I've had mixed experiances with 6551 uarts myself...
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Coach101 My, and Dyfet's (I think), suspicion is that extraneous
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interrupts
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Coach101 are not being handled correctly by ALPE or AWGS.... 4.0 did
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not
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Coach101 seem to care but 5.0 is picky...
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JimMensch the interupt manager now cares more about unclaimed interupts...
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JimMensch it thinks they are a bad idea...
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AFL Dyfet I'm sure there are reasons for this new pickyness...perhaps
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related to getting
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AFL Dyfet us to dyna-slot arbitration and interrupt support from switched
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slots??? :)
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Montagne Actually, it has nothing to do with dynamic slot arbitration.
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Bernard How do you rename a volume with 5.0?
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Dreid 65536 uncalimed interuppts quit Alink quickly
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II GS1 what are the differences in ver 5.0?
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JimMensch you click in the desktop, then click once on the icon ya wanna
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rename. type the name and hit rtn
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AFL Dyfet I think we had better get started here....Okay, Welcome to the
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Apple II Dev.
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AFL Dyfet Forum. Tonight's topic is GS/OS and System Software 5.0. WE WILL
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BE USING
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AFL Dyfet PROTOCOL, starting NOW! This means if you wish to ask a question,
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please enter
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AFL Dyfet a '?' on a line by itself, and if you wish to comment on the
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current question,
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AFL Dyfet please enter a '!' on a line by itself. Before we actually get
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started with
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EdwardF4 =\
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AFL Dyfet tonights discussion, I would like to introduce our special guests
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tonight;
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EdwardF4 (sorry. Kitten on keyboard.)
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II GS1 lol
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AFL Dyfet Jim Merrit and Ray Montage, who have been directly involved in
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bringing GS/OS
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AFL Dyfet about at Apple computer :). Jim, if you would like to step
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forwared and
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JimMensch (Jim Merrit is not here...)
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AFA Gary J :)
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JimMensch he's on vacation...
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AFL Dyfet introduce yourself, feel free to do so :)...(Oops, sorry Jim...I
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got my Jim's
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AFL Dyfet confused :)...
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JimMensch But, he is in charge of the AUG group which is in charge of the
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Finder
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JimMensch the control panel and the Advanced disk utilities. He is also a
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big proponent of pascal
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II GS1 how do you get involved with AUg?
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JimMensch Now, I on the other hand, write tools
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JimMensch I worked priumarily on Quickdraw, windowMgr, Control Mgr, event
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mgr, and memory mgr for the 5.0
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JimMensch system disk.
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JimMensch GA
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AFL Dyfet (What a birthday :)....Okay, Ray, would you like to introduce
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yourself?
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Montagne Howdy, all. I've been working on GS/OS since it's conception --
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AFA Gary J (we have a nice sized party here for your birthday, Dave :)
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Montagne working mostly on generated drivers, loaded drivers, the device
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dispatcher
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Montagne and the device manager.
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Montagne GA
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AFL Dyfet Okay, thank you gentlemen. Now, I believe we are ready for our
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first question,
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AFL Dyfet from AFC Joyce...You have the floor now, Joyce...
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AFC JoyceM I am having great difficulty in getting 5.0 to re-name a
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folder...how do I
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AFC JoyceM overcome this problem? Thank you. GA
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AFL Dyfet GA Jim...:)
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JimMensch Its quite simple, click once in the blue background and then click
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on the folder
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JimMensch Then, start typing the new name for the folder, when you are done
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press return and its renamed. GA
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AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Joyce, I take it you have something to add...
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JimMensch (Was I Wrong joyce??? :)
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AFC JoyceM So it works differently than 4.0?
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JimMensch yes, it works different from 4.0
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JimMensch ga
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AFC JoyceM Thank you. GA
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from Coach. You have the
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floor now...
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Coach101 I was dumping a GrafPort while chasing a ScrolllRect problem and
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noticed
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Coach101 that the font handle now has some high order bits set (i.e.,
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80e077d4)
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Coach101 Waht is the significance of the high order bits in a handle and is
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it
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Coach101 now legal to play games with the high order bits in pointers?
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JimMensch yes coach, thats cause you have the system font installed as the
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current font
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JimMensch that is the fastfont handle...
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JimMensch Coach, its legal for me to play games, with the high order bit,
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but not for you
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JimMensch sorry GA
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Coach101 Thanks..... GA
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BRCCMAIL Is it possible to have other FastFonts besides Shaston?
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I see that our next question is from II GS1, who left, so I
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believe that
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AFL Dyfet BRCCMAIL has the floor next, although he stole it early :)
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AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
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JimMensch Well, yes it is possible to have other fast fonts, in fact I have
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a few others, but since I have not
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JimMensch published the specs for how they work, you can't create your own.
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We may release more fast fonts
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JimMensch but, as you can see they take up a lot of disk space and memory
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room...
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JimMensch ga
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JimMensch and the specs will be released as soon as I get around to it...
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JimMensch ga
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AFL Dyfet Hmm...Okay, I believe the next question is from Dreid...GA
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Dreid...
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Dreid What about the defect in SCSI.driver mentioned by Bredon,and do
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you know OKS's
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Dreid driver which replaces SCSI.dr and mgr
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AFL Dyfet GA Montagne...you seem to have gotten in first :)
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Montagne I yield to Matt (since I was gonna ask for more info on the
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question)
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Montagne ga
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Matt DTS Bredon's mucking about with the SCSI.DRIVER was only for 4.0, and
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won't even do anything if you
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Matt DTS try to run it under 5.0, since SCSI.DRIVER doesn't exist under
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5.0. The problems he addressed are not
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Matt DTS present in the SCSI Manager, which is a completely new set of
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code. *I* am not familiar with the Ohio
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Matt DTS Kache loaded drivers. GA.
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AFL Dyfet GA Ray...
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Montagne Just a general note... No driver should replace an existing driver
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unless
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Montagne the new driver identifies it's own hardware. OKS' driver should
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not replace
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Montagne the driver supplied by Apple Computer, Inc. when using Apple's
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hardware. GA
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Goalie5 What is the high order bit that was mentioned earlier and how will
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my older
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Goalie5 (Sorry)
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AFL Dyfet I saw you sneaking in Goalie :)...The next question will be from
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II GS1, who
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AFL Dyfet lost his place earlier. You have the floor now...
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II GS1 Thanx :-) I just d/l the 5.0 version and I was wondering what
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II GS1 Some of the major differences were.
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II GS1 ga
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AFL Dyfet Perhaps Ray would most love to tell us about this one, having been
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so close to
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AFL Dyfet it's development :). GA Ray :)
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Montagne Since no one else took it-File loading is up to 5 times faster
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when the
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Montagne file is changed to express format. The AppleDisk3.5 driver
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performs I/O at
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Montagne twice the speed of 4.0 when doing large transfers (more than 4
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blocks), the
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Montagne SCSI driver(s) and manager increase I/O performance on SCSI
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devices by a factor
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Montagne of about 5. And last, but certainly not least, Jim has improved
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the
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JimMensch We have added several new tools and enhanced others, see the
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discusion area for details. GA
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AFL Dyfet I bet Jim would love to tell us about the the tools :). GA
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Jim...
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Montagne performance of Queeksdlaw by up to eight times. GA
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JimMensch They are much faster. (AndyBoy1 grabbed Mensches kbd)
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AFL FrankD :)
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JimMensch sorry, but we changed so much that it would be a bad idea to go
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into it right now. We made some change
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AFL Dyfet I'm glad you were able to make it after all, Andy...albiet a
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little
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JimMensch ga
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AFL Dyfet indirectly :). GA A2GS...
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A2GS You forgot to mention support for CDEV's :)
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A2GS Without getting into things to deeply.
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A2GS GA
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AFL Dyfet This is true, it would take very long to cover even in brief the
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changes made,
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AFL Dyfet so we will be going to the next question, from Sky Singer. GA
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Sky...
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SkySinger 2 questions. Are there any color printer drivers in GS/OS? Any
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animation tools
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SkySinger now or planned? GA.
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AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
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JimMensch Yes, the imagewriter printer supports color (as does the driver)
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and no, no animation tools now,
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JimMensch as for later, you know better than that...... :)
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AFL Dyfet GA A2GS...
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A2GS Wouldn't mind seeing some 3-D tools :)
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AFL Dyfet I recall a number of cute 3-d drawing tools from the 'old' II days
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myself :)...
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AFL Dyfet in any case, I believe our next question is from AFL Tracy. GA
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Tracy...
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AFL TracyP I continually get questions in the Hardware Forum asking
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about...
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AFL TracyP drivers for printers other than IWII and Epson. Has or will
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Apple
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AFL TracyP release info so that interested third prties can write drivers?
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AFL TracyP ga
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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Matt DTS What?!
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Matt DTS Information on how to write third-party drivers has been out for
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more than a year!
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Montagne Geez Matt, Melow out!
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Matt DTS IIgs Technical Notes # 35 and 36. I thought you were going to
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ask...
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AFL TracyP Fine, how can someone obtain the aforementioned??
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Matt DTS ...if we were working on sample code, and that answer is yes.
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Maybe not for source code sampler
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Matt DTS volume #2, but hopefully soon. The TNs are available in the ADV
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library, right Dyfet? <GA>
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JimMensch download em from here tracy
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AFL TracyP Thanks, Matt, I'll pass it along. :))
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AFL TracyP ga]
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AFL Dyfet I think we covered that question, and now I have one left over
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from the chaos
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AFL Dyfet at the very start of tonights conf. Ray (or Jim/Matt), why is
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GS/OS now more
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AFL Dyfet sensative about unclaimed interrupts?
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AFL Dyfet GA Ray...
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Montagne I'm not sure why the change was made but it used to be like
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this... When an
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Montagne unclaimed interrupt occurred a counter was incremented. If the
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interrupt
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Montagne was ever claimed, the counter was reset. If the counter ever
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overflowed
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Montagne to 65536, the unclaimed interrupt message was displayed. The
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counter
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Montagne represented the number of consecutive unclaimed interrupts. It is
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now
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Montagne cummulative. Were looking into it but the dialog is indicating
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a
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Montagne condition that should not exist whether the counter is reset or
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not.GA
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AFL Dyfet GA Coach...
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Coach101 The information I have says that the counter is checked at each
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Coach101 interrupt but the behaviour is different. I can only get the
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message
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Coach101 at two different types of times... When leaving ALPE or when a
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disk I/O
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Coach101 is attempted.... Is it really susposed to be checked at each
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interrupt?
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AFL Dyfet GA Ray...
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Montagne It is only checked at interrupt time (the 65536th interrupt)GA
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AFL Dyfet I think I understand now. Perhaps the 6551 is continually
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slamming the
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AFL Dyfet interrupt line until it's been told that the status register was
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read...if it
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AFL Dyfet is, it will certainly bump that count up VERY quickly during disk
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I/O, when the
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AFL Dyfet software is unable to service the poor chip.
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Coach101 Thats a promising avenue....
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AFL Dyfet Either that, or the counter is jumping at more than a single
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increment...
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AFL Dyfet GA Ray...
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Montagne Not to likely. The counter is incremented by the interrupt
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manager
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Montagne only when no handler has claimed it. GA
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Coach101 As a workaround how about a
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AFL Dyfet Okay, we can discuss this further in the boards, this looks like
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it will take
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Coach101 CDA that uses a ProDos-16 type interrupt handler and just disposes
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of
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AFL Dyfet some time to figure out. I believe the next question is from
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Goalie. You have
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Coach101 any interrupts that it gets.... Is that a feasible
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workaround?
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Goalie5 What is the high order bit that was mentioned eariler and how do
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you make a
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Goalie5 file express load format??
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Goalie5 GA
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AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
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JimMensch the High order bit we were talking about was in the high byte of
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the font handle in your grafports...
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JimMensch every handle has an extra byte at the top, which I used for
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internal flags. It is completly compatible
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JimMensch for older stuff.
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JimMensch and to express a file, you run express on it from APW, however I
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do not know if that is available yet.
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JimMensch maybe the dts guys know...
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JimMensch ga
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Goalie5 Also, I have many programs written for system 4.0.
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Goalie5 How will thsy run on 5.0??
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Goalie5 ga
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JimMensch they will run just fine, but a little faster
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JimMensch ga
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Montagne Nevermind!
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AFL Dyfet GA A2GS...
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Goalie5 Will any programming routines need to be changed on programs that
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I write??
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Scotty AMS ...cancel my wuestion... thanks
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A2GS I've found in many programs that use the tools but don't follow
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all the
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A2GS guidelines, they don't purge memory and therefore may freeze or
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crash the
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A2GS system under 5.0!
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AFL Dyfet GA Jim....it seems these two are related :)
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Goalie5 Also, what was APW,Jim?? Finder???
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JimMensch Not if you follow the rules in the toolbox ref manual goalie ga.
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JimMensch Goalie, its something you can buy from APDA.
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JimMensch ga
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Goalie5 OK. Thanks.
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Goalie5 Done.
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AFL Dyfet GA Ray...
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Montagne Thanks, nevermind!
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AFL Dyfet Ah...Okay, I believe our next question is from BRRCMAIL. GA
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Brrc...
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BRCCMAIL I just read some info by Dave Leffler on adding new file types to
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Ftype.Main
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BRCCMAIL Is is okay for the end user to add a new Ftype file?
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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Matt DTS <grimacing AND whining all at the same time...>
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Matt DTS Please don't mess with Ftype.Main and FType.Aux.
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Matt DTS You are perfectly welcome to add your own FType file to the
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*/Icons directory.
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Matt DTS You can have up to 30 of them, and the auxtype has to be greater
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than $0100.
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Matt DTS File type note for File Type $42 details the format (released in
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July; text format any day now, says
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Matt DTS Mark Johnson). GA.
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AFL Dyfet (q -A2GS)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, our next question will be from the Gibber, who got misplaced
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in the que.
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AFL Dyfet GA Gibber.
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A GibberFC I am currently working on drivers for the HP Deskwriter to work
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with the //gs
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A GibberFC But the biggest work that I have ahead of me is the translation of
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the Semi-
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A GibberFC OUtline fonts that the HP uses on the Mac.... I am wondering if
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there is a way
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A GibberFC to make a new file that Quickdraw // will recognize as a "outline
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font" and
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A GibberFC allow the graphics capibility with the //gs... i.e. the scaling
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from 4 to 250
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A GibberFC point with no Jaggies
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A GibberFC ga
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AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
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JimMensch Quickdraw does not recognize "outline fonts.." they must be
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standard bitmap fonts
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JimMensch so, you would have to create the font in the size you want and put
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it on the disk. GA
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A GibberFC hmmm like a 250 point font that will can be shrunk down by the
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//gs?
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A2GS LOL
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A GibberFC That will take up much hard drive space ;)
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JimMensch sure, but no matter how its scaled it will look bad. ga
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from SkySinger. GA Sky...
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SkySinger Could someone give a brief description of "resources" and how they
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operate?
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JimMensch you have to have a file for each font if you want it to not look
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scaled...
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JimMensch resources are a seperate part of a standard file that contain data
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items that are identified by
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JimMensch type and id. They are a way to manage standard system type data
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for programmers. The resource manager
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JimMensch acts as a type of data manager reading and writing them. GA
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JimMensch (andy) !
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AFL Dyfet GA Andy :)
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JimMensch The nice thing is that many of the tools know about resources.
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For example, you could put the
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JimMensch data for a menu into a resource, and you could call NewMenu2 with
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just the ID of the resource,
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JimMensch and the menu manager will call the resource manager, load the
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data, build the menu, and
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JimMensch release the resource all in one step.. Pretty cool eh? GA
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SkySinger Sounds good. Thanks. GA
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AFL Dyfet Okay, more information about resources may be found in the
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discussion area. I
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AFL Dyfet believe the next question is from Dreid. GA Dreid...
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Dreid I have found that when I view files in a window by date (vs icon)
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the bottom
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Dreid proportional scroll bar is not active even though I can't see
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everything
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Dreid normal?
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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Matt DTS Normal. Here's why:
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Matt DTS The Finder displays the headings ("Name", "kind", "Size", etc.) in
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the window's "information bar"
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Matt DTS which is a standard window part handled by the Window Manager.
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The Information Bar doesn't scroll
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Matt DTS when the window does. Therefore, scrolling the window makes the
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headings line up with the wrong
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Matt DTS columns, which we found to be confusing a significant, non-zero
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number of people.
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Dreid not nice if you want to check all changed files
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Matt DTS So now you grow the window to see more information. (It's always
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been this way in the Mac Finder.)
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Matt DTS There's always trade-offs. We opted this time to confuse fewer
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people. GA.
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe AFL Tracy is next. GA Tracy...
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AFL TracyP Why does Sys 5.0 seem so persnickety about certain modified
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AFL TracyP Finder.Icons files? A number of poeple have complained
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AFL TracyP about their 5.0 disk crashing in mid-boot. It seems
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AFL TracyP to be traceable to a changed Finder.Icons file.
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AFL TracyP ga
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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AFL TracyP (it hasn't happened to me yet...:)
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Matt DTS (making up for earlier slacking) From Jim Merritt, the official
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Top Several list ...
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Matt DTS ...of Things You Can't Do to Finder.Icons:
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Matt DTS 1. Add new icons to it.
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Matt DTS 2. Change anything but the image of icons already in it.
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Matt DTS 3. Delete icons from it.
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Matt DTS Basically, Jim says the Finder makes assumptions about
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Finder.Icons, and doesn't like it if someone
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Matt DTS changed things around to make the assumptions fail. The chief
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culprits are duplicate trash can or
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Matt DTS "generic" icons (those which match any file). Duplicates there
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make the Finder quite unhappy.
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Matt DTS Fortunately, you can add icons in separate files (not
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Finder.Icons) and the Finder will be happy.
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Matt DTS GA Ray.
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Montagne Besides, proper use of the installer prevents these problems. GA
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AFL Dyfet GA Coach...
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AFL TracyP Hmmmm...those "rules" are certainly violable, though.
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Coach101 Yes, but the Finder will crash with Icon files that were fine
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under 4.0
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AFL TracyP I have a highly modified Finder.Icons file. Why I haven't
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AFL TracyP crashed like som others, I don't know....
|
|
Coach101 and are stored as new Icon files in the Icons folder. Again, to
|
|
the user
|
|
Coach101 this appears as a crash in mid-boot... ga
|
|
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
|
|
JimMensch (andyboy) a file which worked under 4.0 is not necessarily a
|
|
"correct" file
|
|
JimMensch That's just one of the rules of compatibility .. GA
|
|
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
|
|
AFL TracyP (foloup ?, pls....)
|
|
Coach101 Ok... But a bad Icon message is far preferable to a crash....
|
|
done...
|
|
Matt DTS Sometimes you can break the rules and not die. We've all seen (or
|
|
written) programs like that.
|
|
Matt DTS That doesn't mean it won't happen soon, like as soon as your
|
|
program with the bad icon file ships.
|
|
Matt DTS :(
|
|
Matt DTS Basically, since the Finder offers you a way to add as many icon
|
|
files as you like, it's just plain
|
|
Matt DTS easier to leave the Finder's files alone (except to change
|
|
images). And don't put non-file icons into
|
|
Matt DTS separate files. It's just a set of Finder restrictions we
|
|
currently have. GA Ray.
|
|
Montagne It is also unreasonable that the system software will parse
|
|
everything when
|
|
Montagne performance is at risk. We have to trust developers to follow the
|
|
rules and
|
|
Montagne sometimes when they don't - you have a bad day! GA
|
|
AFL Dyfet GA Tracy (With f/u Q)
|
|
Coach101 Good point....
|
|
AFL TracyP I missed the answer to the ? about expressloada files.
|
|
AFL TracyP Are users capable of converting current files to ExpressLoad
|
|
AFL TracyP format, orwill those have to come from the publishers?
|
|
AFL TracyP ga
|
|
AFL Dyfet Express is an APW utility (or will be)...GA Ray...
|
|
Montagne They have to come from the publishers! Write'em and tell'em what
|
|
you want.GA
|
|
AFA Parik (retract Q)
|
|
AFL TracyP OK, thanks. Sorry Parik...:)
|
|
AFL Dyfet I gather there was some concern about users indiscriminently
|
|
expressing on
|
|
AFL Dyfet their own?
|
|
AFA Parik (not my question, just forgot what I wanted to ask ;)
|
|
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
|
|
JimMensch Express on your own, but at your own risk. Some apps can not be
|
|
expressed without rewrite and
|
|
JimMensch the best people to decide if an application works as designed is
|
|
the publisher. Some apps may fail if
|
|
JimMensch expressed, and they may fail in wierd ways...
|
|
JimMensch GA
|
|
JimMensch (Andy went home...)
|
|
AFL Dyfet I know that term, 'wierd ways' :)...um, I see that our next
|
|
question is from
|
|
AFL Dyfet Coach...GA...
|
|
Coach101 I am trying to scroll a window with my own vertical scroll
|
|
bar....
|
|
Coach101 The action routine pointed to by my TrackControl call issues a
|
|
ScrollRect
|
|
Coach101 call of the appropriate amount. When my ContentDraw routine is
|
|
entered
|
|
Coach101 I have and update region that is the entire content area of the
|
|
window
|
|
Coach101 and a visible region that is nil (0,0,0,0). Consequently, my draw
|
|
routine
|
|
Coach101 does nothing.... What should I be doing?
|
|
Coach101 ga
|
|
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
|
|
Dave Lyons When your ContentDraw routine is entered, the update region
|
|
doesn't mean anything in particular--
|
|
Dave Lyons but the VisRegion shouldn't be empty like that. I dunno what's
|
|
going on--Jim?
|
|
AFL Dyfet Jim? GA :)
|
|
JimMensch Well, its like this
|
|
JimMensch your content drawproc is called AFTER a call to begin update, so
|
|
the update region is swapped with the
|
|
JimMensch the vis region. If your update region was nil, then you have no
|
|
vis region. Are you inval'ing the
|
|
JimMensch region scroll rect returns? scrollrect is part of quickdraw, and
|
|
quickdraw don't know from update rgns
|
|
AFA Parik t
|
|
JimMensch I suspect that your update region is being set screwy. Are you
|
|
changing the content origin?
|
|
JimMensch ga
|
|
Coach101 Nope on the inval, and that explains alll....... Will
|
|
change
|
|
Coach101 code this evening and retire for bed with a working routine....
|
|
AT LAST!
|
|
Coach101 THANKS THANKS THANKS
|
|
JimMensch groovy, GA
|
|
Dave Lyons If you're not inval-ing anything, why is your content-draw
|
|
AFA Parik (no, face mashing on keyboard)
|
|
Dave Lyons routine getting called at all, Coach?
|
|
Coach101 Ask Jim
|
|
Montagne Next question!
|
|
Coach101 Or..... The control changed its visible condition due to user
|
|
interaction!
|
|
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from A2GS...
|
|
A2GS Can someone briefly explain the process, what happens when an app
|
|
is
|
|
A2GS 'Expressed' and what allows it to run faster under 5.0 as opposed
|
|
to 'regular'
|
|
A2GS 'UnExpressed' files?
|
|
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
|
|
Matt DTS Basically, Expressed files are "pre-processed" and pre-expanded in
|
|
some ways...
|
|
Matt DTS ...the System Loader reads through the file looking for some
|
|
things, and Expressed files already have
|
|
Matt DTS them recorded in the special "express" segment. This avoids
|
|
walking OMF records and speeds loading.
|
|
Matt DTS More detail than we probably want to take on-line time for will be
|
|
in a September Technical Note,
|
|
A2GS thanx...Curious :)
|
|
Matt DTS appropriately entitled "ExpressLoad Philosophy" (or "Speedy the
|
|
Loader Helper", I can't remember.)
|
|
Matt DTS GA.
|
|
A2GS GA
|
|
Montagne Just a note. An expressed file will still work with 4.0.
|
|
Montagne ga
|
|
AFL Dyfet Any further comments or questions?
|
|
AFL FrankD Good NOTE! Thanks, Ray. :)
|
|
AFL FrankD What's a CDEV?
|
|
JSchober Control Panel DEVice. :)
|
|
AFL Dyfet GA A2GS...
|
|
A2GS To my knowledge it's a file which handles a certain option among
|
|
those
|
|
A2GS available in the control panel (OA-ctrl-ESC), but is displayed and
|
|
allows
|
|
A2GS access through the desktop too the control panel.
|
|
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...:)
|
|
A2GS GA
|
|
Matt DTS CDevs only affect the Control Panel NDA (through the pull-down
|
|
Apple menu). The text-based CDA
|
|
Matt DTS Control Panel is not affected. Specs will be published in
|
|
September; File Type Note for type $C7.
|
|
Matt DTS <GA>
|
|
AFA Parik will expressed files work under system disk v3.2 and below?
|
|
(sorry, a bit slow)
|
|
AFL FrankD Thanks! Wondered about those little jewels. :)
|
|
Matt DTS (parik: Yes. ProDOS 16 v1.2 or later is needed.)
|
|
AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any other takers for tonight?
|
|
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
|
|
JimMensch I have a question... What would people like to see added to the
|
|
toolbox. New tools, new features ...
|
|
JimMensch ga
|
|
AFL Dyfet He asked....:)
|
|
Montagne and the OS....
|
|
ShrinkIt (I already sent in my list... :-)
|
|
AFL Dyfet GA Scott...
|
|
AFA Gary J FST's
|
|
AFL Dyfet High speed Apple supplied com drivers :)
|
|
JimMensch not to me... :) (and I get to help chose)
|
|
AFL Scott Palette Manager, More FST's(for the os)...Done.
|
|
Matt DTS Jim: DTS got Andy's list today. We're working through it. Be
|
|
patient. :)
|
|
JimMensch FST's?? (A little vague...)
|
|
Doctor Why Concatonating prefixs or paths.
|
|
AFA Parik Imagewriter LQ driver (full featured)
|
|
JSchober HFS FST would be a good start... :) <sorry, I'm kinda losing
|
|
protocolishness.>
|
|
JimMensch Pallette manager? to do what?
|
|
A2GS More special FX tools like...3-D tools, fades etc... liven thins
|
|
up! :)
|
|
AFL Dyfet Let's take this slowly...one person at a time...
|
|
AFL Dyfet GA Joe...you have the floor...
|
|
JimMensch (I am recording...)
|
|
AFL Scott Do what the mac thing does... only allowing dynamic allocation of
|
|
palettes...
|
|
JSchober OK... then, an HFS FST =would= be a good start, for the OS. For
|
|
tools... umm,
|
|
AFL Scott such as when a user selects a different palette to work with, the
|
|
SCBS are
|
|
JSchober well, if you made 'em re-entrant, that'd help things tons. :)
|
|
GA
|
|
AFL Scott automatically updated for each line crossed. DONE
|
|
AFL Dyfet I see both Scott and Joe got in there :)...GA Ray, I gather you
|
|
wish to comment
|
|
AFL Dyfet on some of this?
|
|
Montagne Re-entrancy is not really an FST problem, it's a driver
|
|
problem...
|
|
JSchober Re-entrant tools, I meant.
|
|
Montagne Most drivers are based heavily on firmware implementations such
|
|
as
|
|
Montagne BASIC, Pascal1.1, ProDOS, SmartPort or Extended SmartPort. These
|
|
firmware
|
|
Montagne implementations are not re-entrant. We could make the OS
|
|
re-entrant but
|
|
Montagne compatability would be almost non existant. Not a good trade off!
|
|
GA
|
|
JimMensch got it, re-entrant tools, more fts's (vague) pallette manager
|
|
(please send an explanation)
|
|
JimMensch anyone else?
|
|
A2GS Special FX tools of some kind, liven things up a bit, 3-D,
|
|
Fades,
|
|
A2GS color cycling, faster algorithms for filling, line drawing,
|
|
etc...
|
|
Matt DTS (horizontal scrolling in TextEdit. Multiple rulers. 20x
|
|
faster.)
|
|
JimMensch Special effects, 3-d (as in rotations and such?) animation/screen
|
|
manipulation.. anything else?
|
|
Doctor Why Concatonating prefixes or paths
|
|
A2GS yep.
|
|
JimMensch how 'bout 10x faster matt :)
|
|
Matt DTS Fine. Gotta start somewhere.
|
|
JimMensch Concatinating prefixes? whats that?
|
|
ShrinkIt (and not make it take a ton of memory, Jim... :-)
|
|
JimMensch oh like 1/2/3 and stuff
|
|
AFA Gary J :)
|
|
A2GS Nevermind my comment/question :)
|
|
AFL Dyfet I think he means fancier calls for manipulating pathnames...
|
|
JimMensch oh, ok...
|
|
Doctor Why It means that you can look for a file in a series of prefixes.
|
|
JimMensch got it
|
|
JSchober How 'bout the graphical equivalent of the TextEdit toolset??
|
|
AFA Parik textedit = graphic i thought?
|
|
JimMensch Like the textedit toolset on 5.0???
|
|
AFL Dyfet Oh, I see Doctor Why....list searching...
|
|
JimMensch or do you mean trhe text toolkit...
|
|
JSchober No, I mean, one to ease the implementation of the basic graphic
|
|
tools.
|
|
AFL Dyfet GA RAY...
|
|
JimMensch ok. Well thats a bunch for now!
|
|
Montagne Good god! Don't use the Text Tool Set for anything!!!!
|
|
Montagne Other alternatives should be considered (lest we may not be able
|
|
to
|
|
A2GS That's what the desktop is for!
|
|
JimMensch I will come back and ask again some times...
|
|
Montagne provide dynamic slot switching, allowing all 14 slots to be
|
|
used)GA
|
|
Matt DTS Ray: Mellow out! :)
|
|
AFL Dyfet I believe we have already had this long debate already in a folder
|
|
(text tools)
|
|
Matt DTS The Right Way will triumph in the end.
|
|
AFL Dyfet and for now, I'd prefer to keep it there, before we get onto that
|
|
impassioned
|
|
AFL Dyfet subject for the rest of the night :)...
|
|
AFA Gary J :)
|
|
Montagne Matt was waiting for that!
|
|
AFL Dyfet I would like support of 'C' strings (char followed by /0) by GS/OS
|
|
calls
|
|
AFL Dyfet myself :)...Would make libraries for C easier to impliment :)
|
|
JimMensch broader os string support. got it..
|
|
JoeM54 Is the forum to ask questions about the 5.0 system
|
|
AFL Dyfet Yes it is, Joe, although our conference began at 10:00PM EST...
|
|
ShrinkIt (we're suggesting improvements right now, joe... :-)
|
|
AFA Gary J I like the idea of a key-file/index toolset for indexing data in
|
|
files. ;)
|
|
AFL Dyfet You mean like Coach is sorta working on? Actually, a GS/OS record
|
|
manager
|
|
JimMensch database/data indexing tool
|
|
Coach101 Have I got a deal for you Gary!
|
|
AFL Dyfet would not be a bad idea :)
|
|
AFL FrankD Gotta run... sunrise comes earlier here than in California. :)
|
|
AFA Gary J Yes, Coach :)
|
|
JSchober Night Frank. :)
|
|
AFL FrankD Nice conference! Thanks guys! :)
|
|
JoeM54 I have been experiencing some difficulties running applelink under
|
|
5.0
|
|
AFA Gary J Goodnight, Frank.
|
|
AFL Dyfet Here's one on my wishlist: Being able to hold open multiple
|
|
handles to the same
|
|
AFL Dyfet file....
|
|
Coach101 What do you mean?
|
|
Matt DTS You can do that now, Dave. They just all have to be read-only.
|
|
JimMensch Dyfet, please mail lengthy descriptions to me...
|
|
AFL Dyfet You can Matt!!!???? But ALL have to be read-only???
|
|
Matt DTS (so different people, like an application and a DA, don't conflict
|
|
over the same file.)
|
|
Matt DTS (if the app wrote to a section of file the DA already read, how
|
|
would the DA know?)
|
|
AFL Dyfet I was thinking of several background inits for interesting things
|
|
if shared
|
|
AFL Dyfet file access were truelly possible...
|
|
Doctor Why I've got to run, thanks guys!
|
|
Matt DTS If you can't open a file read-only, then someone else has it open
|
|
with read-write permission.
|
|
A2GS Would like sub-menus in pull down menus.
|
|
JimMensch hierarchical menus got it (ugh)
|
|
Matt DTS Use the Exerciser application and play around with it, Dave.
|
|
ShrinkIt hierarchical menus? Please, I vote no..
|
|
A2GS Why?
|
|
JimMensch thats 2 votes against... :)
|
|
ShrinkIt Matt, tell 'em...
|
|
AFL Dyfet I will Matt...
|
|
Matt DTS They're a good excuse for poor human interface.
|
|
JoeM54 yes i am using an internal modem
|
|
JimMensch Not enough screen realestate a2gs... I wish we could take them
|
|
back on the mac side...
|
|
Matt DTS They make simple choices hard to access and make finding menu
|
|
choices sometimes impossible.
|
|
AFL Scott Tear off menus.
|
|
Matt DTS Imagine trying to change fonts in a program with no ChooseFont
|
|
dialog and a hierarchical font menu.
|
|
Matt DTS (and a lot of fonts. You'd be imagining PowerPoint on the Mac.
|
|
Ick.)
|
|
A2GS Good point...could only be used for really simple/obvious menus.
|
|
JimMensch Tear off menus, right
|
|
Matt DTS (I could go on and on.)
|
|
Matt DTS (And often do.)
|
|
JimMensch please don't, he gets the point
|
|
ShrinkIt Tear-Offs would be nice... :-)
|
|
AFL Dyfet I believe Jim noted that :)
|
|
AFL Scott If it was suggested before... I missed it due to
|
|
E-Mail/FN's..Sorry.
|
|
AFA Parik when a program quits and is *NOT* restartable, what is done with
|
|
the actual
|
|
AFA Parik program ram? That is, where in memory the program resided. for
|
|
some reason
|
|
AFA Parik it won't disappear from RAM and my RAm keeps shrinking...ugh
|
|
AFA Parik (and its NOT restartable)
|
|
JimMensch It is empty waiting with open arms for new data parik
|
|
Matt DTS It's released to the system, Parik. Any memory it allocated with
|
|
a different userID won't, however,
|
|
Dave Lyons When a program quits and isn't restartable, GQUIT calls
|
|
UserShutdown, and all the memory with
|
|
Matt DTS be automatically disposed of. The application has to do that.
|
|
Dave Lyons the program's memory ID gets disposed of. If you're losing
|
|
memory, it sounds like the
|
|
JimMensch Parik, you may be using the wrong ID when allocating memory, check
|
|
with memory peeker or mangler
|
|
Dave Lyons program is allocating some memory with a different memory ID (by
|
|
accident? for some reason?).
|
|
AFA Parik its nice having bunch of Apple folks. :) thanks, will check.
|
|
JimMensch hmmmm .... these all sound alike...
|
|
Matt DTS (the preceding three answers were a graphic illustration of the
|
|
Evils of Poor Interleave.)
|
|
Dave Lyons (Did anybody compute the interleave factor for those last answers?
|
|
:)
|
|
AFL FrankD Looks fine to me, just have to get used to reading it. :)
|
|
AFL FrankD 1:3 Dave. :)
|
|
Dave Lyons (Parik...gee, I wish I could think of a good utility you could use
|
|
to examine memory and
|
|
Dave Lyons see what's going on....)
|
|
JimMensch if no other comments I think I will head out...
|
|
Montagne I think I'll reassign some blocks!
|
|
A2GS Why does 5.0 load certain portions of itself into scattered banks
|
|
in memory,...
|
|
Dave Lyons "Scattered banks"??
|
|
AFL Dyfet GA Ray...
|
|
A2GS why not just purge all of memory so the next app which is run
|
|
doesn't have to
|
|
A2GS worry?
|
|
Matt DTS DAs might not like that.
|
|
Montagne Historically, the operating system only resided in language card
|
|
areas
|
|
JimMensch inits might not either
|
|
Dave Lyons Purge all of *what* memory when, A2GS? The Memory Manager
|
|
supports some pretty neat
|
|
Montagne and certain portions of bank $00. As additional features have
|
|
been added
|
|
Dave Lyons ideas to keep from wasting your time--things can stay in RAM and
|
|
be re-used if they're
|
|
Matt DTS Or INITs. Or resources loaded and released.
|
|
A2GS thanx. That answers my ?
|
|
Dave Lyons needed later & you didn't need the memory anyway in the
|
|
meantime.
|
|
Montagne such as high performance drivers and FST's, these have had to be
|
|
loaded into
|
|
AFA Parik bye Jim. THANK YOU a lot for being so supportive of II.
|
|
Montagne managed memory since their just was not sufficient real estate in
|
|
the
|
|
Coach101 Good night Jim.... Thanks for the help....
|
|
Montagne language card areas (plus bank $E0 and $E1 are slow). GA
|
|
AFL Dyfet Have a good evening, Jim!! (that is, if you do manage to escape
|
|
here :)
|
|
AFA Gary J Goodnight, Jim. Thanks for coming tonight.
|
|
AFA Gary J :)
|
|
A2GS Wasn't thinking of using the language card!?
|
|
Montagne Meaning?
|
|
A2GS Banks 05 and up.
|
|
Montagne Didn't I mention use of managed memory in my answer? GA
|
|
A2GS Yup, but seemed to also keep referring to the LC which really has
|
|
no use now
|
|
A2GS except to retain compatibility.
|
|
Dave Lyons No use? It's used by the system.
|
|
Montagne My reference was only to show that there was not sufficient real
|
|
estate
|
|
Dave Lyons (And compatibility is important!)
|
|
A2GS But, wouldn't be necessary had the GS's predecessors not used
|
|
it.
|
|
Montagne to cram the system software into the language cards (who would
|
|
want to with
|
|
Montagne the slower performance) so many components are in managed memory
|
|
where
|
|
A2GS uderstood :)
|
|
Montagne there is space for them and they run faster. GA
|
|
A2GS Never questioned that :)
|
|
Montagne Any more???
|
|
Montagne Gonna check out. See y'all later.
|
|
AFL Dyfet Okay Ray, you have a good evening :)
|