407 lines
17 KiB
Plaintext
407 lines
17 KiB
Plaintext
AppleLink
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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July 18, 1989 10:00 p.m. eastern time
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Topic: Getting Started for Novice Progammers
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and Announcment of Release of System
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Software 5.0 for the Apple IIGS
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Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
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AFL Dyfet We will be getting started here momentarilily, but we should give
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a chance for
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AFL Dyfet others to arrive first...
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AFL Dyfet I see we have incomming people still, so we will give this 1 more
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minute for
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AFL Dyfet late arrivals...
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I think we should be getting started...Good evening and
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welcome to the
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AFL Dyfet Apple II Development forum's tuesday night chat. Tonight's topic
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is 'getting
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AFL Dyfet started', a special conf. for novice programmers. We will be
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using PROTOCOL
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AFL Dyfet tonight starting now. This means if you have a question to ask,
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you must enter
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AFL Dyfet a '?' on a blank line, and if you wish to comment on the current
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question at
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AFL Dyfet hand, you must enter a '!' on a line by itself. I will call each
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of you in
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AFL Dyfet turn. But, before we get started tonight (so hold off on those
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'?' keys :), we
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AFL Dyfet have several special annoucements to make. For the first of
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these, I will be
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AFL Dyfet turning over the floor to Dave Lyons, who has some news many of
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you have been
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AFL Dyfet waiting to hear. GA Dave :)
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Dave Lyons "Summer" is here! System Software 5.0 is *shipping* now, so your
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dealers may
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Dave Lyons already have it. If they don't they should soon. Retail price is
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$49.
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Dave Lyons (Dealers are *allowed* but not required to give you free updates,
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without
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Dave Lyons the manual.)
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AFA Gary J (Yeah!)
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Coach101 Applause Applause Applause
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Furkle ?
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AFL Dyfet I know all of you are happy to hear this. In addition, we will be
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providing
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AFL Dyfet this update online as soon as it arrives. Also, we will have a
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new batch of
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AFL Dyfet technotes available in the near future...
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AFL Dyfet I think the GS/OS team deserves a lot of credit for what they have
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done in
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AFL Dyfet this short of time, but I do not see any members here offhand, so
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I guess Dave
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AFL Dyfet Lyons will have to convey our appreciation :)
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Dave Lyons (Post it! They read Let's Discuss.)
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AFL Dyfet Yes they do, and I'm sure they would appreciate the thanks...:)
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Dave Lyons Not just the GS/OS team, but the Finder/utilities team, the
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toolbox team, and
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Dave Lyons the printing team, too!
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AFL Dyfet Very true!
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AFL Marty (Is there an uploading team? :)
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AFL Dyfet :)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, is there anyone here who would like to add any comments on
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GS/OS's
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Windrider5 ?
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AFL Dyfet release at this point?
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our first question is from Furkle, please go ahead
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with your
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AFL Dyfet question now...
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Furkle question has been answered, thanks
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AFL Dyfet Well, we aim to please :). I believe our next question is from
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Windrider. GA.
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Windrider5 Is it true that we will need more than technotes to understand all
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the changes
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Windrider5 in 5.0
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Dave Lyons !
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave!
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Dave Lyons Yes.
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Coach101 ?
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Dave Lyons The documentation you need will be available later this year from
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APDA;
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Dave Lyons hopefully this summer.
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AE PhilM ?
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Dave Lyons You can still use the old features without new documentation, of
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cours.e
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Coach101 -?
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Dave Lyons Some documentation will be sent to Apple Partners earlier than
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that, too.
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Dave Lyons (ga)
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AFL Dyfet Thank you Dave. Okay, I see Gary has a question to sneak in
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:)..GA Gary...
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AFA Gary J Will this be in the form of a toolbox reference update, or is
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there more?
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Dave Lyons !
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
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Dave Lyons There will be more than one documentation product from APDA for
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5.0; no
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Dave Lyons specific details are available now. ga
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AFA Gary J Thanks (and keep up the good work!)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from AE Phil. You may have
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the floor now.
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AE PhilM In 5.0 the docs say that the SF Manager now need 4 pages of ZP.
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One for itself
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Dave Lyons !
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AE PhilM and three for the list manager. I never initialize the list
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manager in the
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AE PhilM eariler stuff I did...but it is working. How is that??
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
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Dave Lyons Nope--some of the documentation was misleading; it is actually
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supposed to say
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Dave Lyons (and does, in some of the documentation) that SF needs 4 pages of
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*stack
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Dave Lyons space*, not direct page. You just have to make sure you have a
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lot of stack
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Dave Lyons space available when you make an SF call. SF takes care of
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starting up the
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AE PhilM OK...thanks Dave! It does use the list manager tho...right??
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Dave Lyons List Manager for its own use. If you aren't using it directly,
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you don't need
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Dave Lyons to worry about starting it up; if you *are* using the List Manager
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yourself,
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AE PhilM Ok..thanks.
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AE PhilM done
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Dave Lyons you shoul still load and start it. (SF might not *always* start
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the list
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Dave Lyons manager up automatically!) ga
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AE PhilM I will then. done
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AFL Dyfet Okay, thanks Dave. For our late arrivals who missed the
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announcement, System
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AFL Dyfet Disk 5.0 is NOW SHIPPING :)
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HyperRam ?
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AFL Dyfet GA HyperRam...
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HyperRam How long do you expect it will take before we have it for
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download? :)
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AFA Gary J Sometime this Summer :)
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HyperRam Sometime. :)
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HyperRam GA
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Phoenix36 ?
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AFL Dyfet :)...basically as soon as we get our hot little hands on it over
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here :)
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AFL Dyfet I believe our next question is from Phoenix, GA Phoenix...
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Phoenix36 What makes 5.0 so much better than 4.0?
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AE PhilM !
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AFL Dyfet Phil, was that a comment for Pheonix? GA Phil...
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Coach101 ?
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AE PhilM No..just wanted to say that AE will start shipping 5.0 on Vulcan
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and Sonic
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AE PhilM Blaster before the end of the week. That's all!
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Coach101 !
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AFL Dyfet Thank you, Phil...As to Phoenix's question, that can take a long
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explanation...
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AFL Dyfet to put it simply, SPEED!!! Faster desktop with new improved and
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very optimized
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AFL Dyfet tools, faster disk I/O, etc etc :)...GA Coach...
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HyperRam ?
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Phoenix36 !
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Coach101 Pick almost anything under 4.0 and it is faster under 5.0....
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MUCH FASTER
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Coach101 GA
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AFL Dyfet GA Phoenix...you have the floor, after all :)
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Phoenix36 Speed is really worth the $49, because AWGS needs faster window
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management.
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Coach101 !
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AFL Dyfet There is also a new and improved Finder to look forward to, which
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benifits well
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AFL Dyfet from the improved speed of the tools :). GA Coach...
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Coach101 One word of caution for Phoenix,
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Coach101 Do not go out to buy coffee and donuts when starting Appleworks-GS
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under 5.0!
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HyperRam LOL!
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Coach101 :)
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AFL Dyfet :)...Anyone else wish to add any further comments on System
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Software 5.0 at
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AFL Dyfet this time?
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JSchober "Wowwwwww..."
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HyperRam ?
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Phoenix36 !
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AFL Dyfet Go Ahead Phoenix...
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AFL Vince just that it will be at your dealers by week's end.
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Phoenix36 With 5.0 on a hard disk all those 1 meg applications, should load
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like the Mac
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HyperRam ???
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Phoenix36 i mean fast with TranswarpGS
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AFL Dyfet Your question is on record, HyperRam :)...And yes, the benifit in
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some
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AFL Dyfet situations is very much like or even faster than that found under
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4.0 with a
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AFL Dyfet Transwarp GS, although there is nothing stopping you from gaining
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even more
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AFL Dyfet by having one with 5.0 :)
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AE PhilM ditto :)
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AFL Dyfet Well, I believe our next question is from Coach. You now have the
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floor...
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Coach101 Under 5.0, some applications (for example FINDER) remember the
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lower
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Coach101 case letters in my file names. How is this handled from a
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compatibility
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Coach101 issue with programs that may convert all lowercase letters to
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uppercase
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Coach101 letters before passing them on to GS/OS? GA
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Dave Lyons !
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AFL Dyfet The case is not stored in the ProDOS filename itself, but in the
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old ProDOS
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AFL Dyfet version ID bytes found in each directory entry. ProDOS 8, for
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example, will
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AFL Dyfet still see filenames the way it always had, irregardless of how the
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case was set
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AFL Dyfet from GS/OS. GA Dave.
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Dave Lyons No handling is necessary, possible, or present...apps that convert
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pathnames to
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AFL Vince sounds like an old Appleworks trick to me.. :)
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Dave Lyons all uppercase before making GS/OS calls will always create
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filenames that are
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AFA Gary J Yep :)
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Dave Lyons all uppercase. All current FSTs ignore case, so it isn't a
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problem--it just
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Dave Lyons may look ugly.
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Dave Lyons (ga)
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Coach101 So, AFILE and afile are the same file on disk?
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AFL Dyfet I'm sure SOMEONE will come out with a utility to capitolize all
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your filenames
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AFL Dyfet properly :)
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Dave Lyons Yes, AFILE and afile are the same file on disk. I should have
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said
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AFA Parik ?
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AFA Gary J ugh :) (Verry punny :)
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AFA Gary J err...very
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Dave Lyons above that all current FSTs ignore case when matching filenames;
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Dave Lyons they *record* the case so that it comes back right later when you
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read the
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Dave Lyons directory. ga
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Coach101 Tanks... Im done...
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from HyperRam. GA Hyper, you
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have the
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AFL Dyfet floor now...
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HyperRam I know this is a dumb question but does 5.0 spped up the 'screen'
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like in
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HyperRam games?
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HyperRam :)
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AFL Dyfet That depends...if they use toolset calls, yes...
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HyperRam BBL
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AFL Vince Ok, let's cut the FNs.. :)
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Dave Lyons !
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
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Dave Lyons Games that already go right to the screen to do their animation
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will not be
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Dave Lyons sped up by 5.0. ga
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from AFA Parik. You have the
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floor now...
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AFA Parik Does 5.0 splash the colors correctly on bootup? Is there any way
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we can make
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AFA Parik sure that apps don't stomp around $012000? Or does the loader
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automatically
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AFA Parik set nospecialmem when loading programs?
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Dave Lyons !
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AFL Dyfet You can set the appropriate bits in the load files
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themselves....GA Dave, I'm
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AFL Dyfet sure you will have more to add :)
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Dave Lyons What's the "correct" way to splash colors correctly on bootup?
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Under 5.0, apps
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Dave Lyons are very unlikely to load in bank 1...if the system can avoid it,
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it doesn't
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Dave Lyons load them in special memory. Safest thing is to set the
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no-special-memory
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Dave Lyons attribute in your segment kinds.
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AFA Parik the betas running around keep the background color blue.
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Dave Lyons It's GQUIT that tries to avoid it, not the loader (there's a flag
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you pass to
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AFA Parik but what about programs we didn't write. I can't notice a speedup
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in DPII
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AFA Parik when booting from Orca/M. :(
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Dave Lyons InitialLoad saying if it's okay to load into special memory or
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not).
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Dave Lyons The bootup screen is light blue, just like the default desktop
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pattern is; it
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Dave Lyons is no longer supposed to match the border color.
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AFL Dyfet Okay, any further comments?
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AFA Parik ga
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AFL Dyfet Okay, the Q is empty, I see...I also see that we have drifted
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quite far away
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AFL Dyfet from what tonight's topic was originally scheduled :)...So I will
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throw the
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AFL Dyfet remaining time and questions open to any programming subject
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people wish to
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AFL Dyfet ask about...feel free to get your questions in the queue :)
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AFA Parik Dave, do you know if the docs for 5.0 are shipping to developers,
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or should we
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AFA Parik buy it from APDA?
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AE PhilM !
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Dave Lyons !
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AFL Dyfet GA Phil...
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TomH47 ?
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AFL Scott ?
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AE PhilM Developers are expected to get a mailing later this week...that's
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what I have
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AE PhilM been told.
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Dave Lyons You should definitely buy the APDA stuff when it becomes
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available. Some
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Dave Lyons preliminary stuff is being sent to all Partners soon.
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AFA Parik ga
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Coach101 !?
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AFL Vince Do you know if APDA has the toolbox update reference, dave?
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Dave Lyons I don't think they have any 5.0 documentation yet.
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AFL Dyfet I don't believe they have it available yet...
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AE PhilM !
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AFL Dyfet GA Coach...
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Coach101 Whats the difference between a Developor and a Partner (pay $600+
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Coach101 and get a deferred mailing?)? GA
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Dave Lyons ! (really Matt in disguise)
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AFL Dyfet That was a sneaky question, Coach :)...GA Dave...
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AFL Dyfet (or Matt :)
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Dave Lyons He said "partners" (meaning people who currently receive Developer
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Price Lists
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Dave Lyons ) since we don't know if Associates will get it or not. Partners
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will. GA.
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe Phil had a comment...GA Phil...
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AE PhilM APDA does NOT have any 5.0 stuff yet....I called today about just
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that!
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Coach101 Ok, I was thoroughly confused and making {poor} joke! Not a
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complaint!
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AE PhilM done
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AFL Dyfet Okay...I believe our next question is from TomH. Go ahead,
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Tom...
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TomH47 I am currently teaching myself TML Pascal. Is it a good language?
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If not
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TomH47 could you recommend?
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Dave Lyons !
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AFL Vince Is TML good, or is Pascal good?
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TomH47 What I should go to
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TomH47 Ok, is it a useful language
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AFL Dyfet First, Dave, GA...I know Vince will have something to add after
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you :)
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Dave Lyons I wrote DIcEd (a usable icon editor) completely in TML Pascal
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standalone; so
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Dave Lyons it is definitely "good." I can't really compare it with any other
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Pascals,
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Dave Lyons since I haven't done a nontrivial amount of work in any of them.
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It does have
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Dave Lyons some annoying aspects, but I expect they will be cleared up when
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TML Pascal II
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Dave Lyons ships. ga
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TomH47 Thank you
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AFL Vince We do have our share of bugs in Pascal I.
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AFL Vince However, Pascal II has been setup for the novice/intermediate
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level programer. All of the
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AFL Vince resource construction for 5.0 is done with a graphic based point
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and click style editor. After
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AFL Vince you create those structures all you need do to get your programs
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running is put in the "glue" routines
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AFL Vince We're also running it on a Pascal testing suite of over 300
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programs that test all aspects of a Pacal
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AFL Vince compiler before we release it, so I dont think you'll find too
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many of the annoying things Dave
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TomH47 Then it is a good time to be learning, right. Note: Ordered TML
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II recently
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AFL Vince was refering to in this particular version.
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AFL Vince Also, we're not planning an APW compatible product to go along
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with Pascal II for those that are
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AFL Vince interested. GA
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AFL Vince Anytime is a good time to be learning... :)
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TomH47 ;)
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AFL Vince I learn every day, ask Dave, he's been giving me some lessons
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recently.. :)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next, and possibly last, question for this
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evening is from
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AFL Dyfet AFL Scott. GA Scott...
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AFL Scott APW version 2.... When is it due? Or is it even due, yet?
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Coach101 Fall :)
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AFL Dyfet Well, unfortunately, Tim is not here to defend the honour of the
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APW team, but
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AFL Scott and...
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AFL Dyfet fall is what I have heard also...
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AFL Scott Does MPWGS do linking, too?
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AFL Scott Done.
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AFL Vince MPW GS works well, and yes, it links and compiles resources.
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AFA Parik so we can't express programs until fall? ack.
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AFL Scott Worried more about linking large programs not resources at this
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time. Thanks!
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AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any more questions or comments for this
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evening?
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AE PhilM OA-F and OA-G are too close together...need to learn Davorak.
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Coach101 Congratulations to the 5.0 team on a job WELL DONE!!!!
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AFA Gary J Amen!
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AFL Dyfet Apple's excellant operating system :)
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TomH47 Congrats Team
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AFL Dyfet (or should that be excellant system software :)
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AE PhilM ?
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AFL Dyfet GA Phil...
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AE PhilM The MIDI stuff in 5.0 is still not 100% with the 6850 driver are
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there any
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AE PhilM plans to correct the problems??
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AE PhilM It's MUCH better tho...
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AE PhilM done
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AFA Parik (btw Phil - is AA now shipping? puhleeze say yes! :)
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AE PhilM No Parik....still battaling with 5.0 MIDI tools....it's working
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about 99%
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AE PhilM But once in a while it looses a byte and gets totally messed up.
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AE PhilM I'm not sure what more I can do....????
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AFA Parik i'll beta test it for you. :)
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AE PhilM Same problem with MS JR.
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AE PhilM So I'm pretty sure it's not my code.
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AFL Dyfet Well, I guess we will have to wait and see what happens there,
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Phil...
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AFA Parik well - have fun figuring it out Phil. We're counting on you. go
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go go and all
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AFA Parik that stuff.
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Coach101 See you all next week.....
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