349 lines
14 KiB
Plaintext
349 lines
14 KiB
Plaintext
AppleLink
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM
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May 30, 1989 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
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Topic: Pascal and C
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Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, good evening and welcome to the tuesday night Apple
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AFL Dyfet Development Forum chat. Tonight's topic will be C and Pascal.
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AFL Dyfet We will, of course, be using protocol here tonight, starting
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now.
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AFL Dyfet If you wish to ask a question, you must enter a '?' on a line
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AFL Dyfet by itself, and if you wish to comment on the current question
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you
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AFL Dyfet must enter a '!' on a line by itself. I will call each of you in
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turn.
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AFL Dyfet Now, can we have the first questions, please...:)
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Coach101 ?
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AFL Dyfet Okay Coach, GA.
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach
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Coach101 Does anyone know if ByteWorks released their "C" compiler and if
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so,
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Coach101 has anyone had any experience with it? GA
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AFL Dyfet I beleive they showed a beta at AppleFest, but I haven't heard
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since...anyone
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AFL Dyfet else know?
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AFA Gary J !
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Doctor Why !
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AFL Dyfet GA Gary.
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AFA Gary J I know someone who ordered it, and it is backordered. They
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didn't have a
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AFA Gary J definite shipping date, but it is close to shipping.
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AFA Gary J It was advertised in the May issue of ..
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AFA Gary J A+/InCider.
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AFA Gary J GA
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I see. GA Doctor.
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Doctor Why I ordered it at Applefest, but haven't received it yet. GA
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I think we have room in the queue for a few more
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questions...:)
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AFA Gary J C seems to be very popular in our source code library lately.
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Coach101 Dave...., I told you not to cancel the dancing ladies!
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Coach101 ?
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AFL Dyfet Oh drat...yeah, we will need to get a new chorus line. GA
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Coach.
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Coach101 Two questions, are we using protocol so that Dave can get his
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Coach101 weekly jollies with the whips & chains.... Second, does anyone
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know
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Coach101 if Apple is going to do anything with "C"in the new APW that
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will
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Coach101 come out shortly after 5.0?
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AFL Dyfet As to APW C, the person best able to answer that question doesn't
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seem to be
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AFL Dyfet on-line at the moment...Oh, is anyone here familiar with TML's
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Pascal II
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AFL Dyfet announcement?
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AFA Parik yes
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AFL Marty I have it here someplace
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AFL Scott No, Tell us about it!
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AFA Parik but say it anyways :)
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AFL Dyfet Me? I haven't seen it myself yet :). I was hoping somebody could
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tell me :),
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AFL Dyfet .
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AFL Vince What do you want to know?
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AFL Marty Most important new feature is the resource editor...
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AFA Parik supports > 32k linkage...
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A GibberFC (hi all....are we in protocol ;)
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AFL Dyfet Sorta, Gibber.
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AFL Marty enables programmers to graphically define menus, windows, etc.
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AFL Vince new features: Complete support for 5.0, resource editor, enhanced
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program editor, new manual
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AFA Gary J Q = Dyfet (Marty, Vince)
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AFL Marty (I'll stop.... no need for me to be a parrot)
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Windrider5 ?
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AFA Gary J When? (This summer?? :)
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AFL Dyfet I do recall hearing it will ship July 1st.
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AFL Marty 7/1
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AFL Vince Supports the new StartupTools and Shutdowntools directives,
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etc..
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AFL Vince they are also having a programming contest with lots of nice
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prizes..
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AFL Marty $49.95
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AFA Gary J Q = Dyfet (Vince), Windrider
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AFA Parik (that means GS/OS will be out July 1st...?)
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Doctor Why !
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AFL Vince they are offering TWGS for $299
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AFL Marty yes Parik
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AFL Dyfet Sounds pretty exciting. Seems everyone will have a resource
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editor pretty
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AFA Gary J $49.95 is upgrade price?
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AFL Vince and they have rewritten the source code library
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AFL Marty Oui
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THE GIBBER (oops the kittens knocked the phone off the hook :(
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AFA Gary J What is $$$ new?
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AFA Gary J Q = Dyfet (Dr Why), Windrider
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AFL Vince I would assume $129 which is their normal retail...
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AFL Marty Doesn't say here.
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AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Dr.
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AFL Marty (----=====[}}}} Joe)
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Doctor Why Please cancel my ! it was already mentioned.
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JSchober (Hi all... and thrpppt Marty... :)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe the next question is from Windrider. GA Wind.
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AFA Gary J Q = Windrider
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Windrider5 what do you mean by graphically defining menus window?
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AFL Marty It means point and click.
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AFL Dyfet I think they meant you define a resource and draw it in resedit.
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AFL Marty The resource editor does the job of generating the code necessary
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to
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AFL Marty draw the window at those coordinates.
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AFA Gary J Q = Windrider, <empty>
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I think it's time to fill that queue. Any new questions out
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there?
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AFA Parik ?
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Windrider5 I'll believe it when I see it
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AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Parik.
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik
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AFA Parik Does GS/OS v5.0 come with a Resource Editor itself? Is
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APW/TML/Genesys/etc REZ
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AFA Parik program a lot like the Macs REZEDIT?
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AFA Parik (er, resedit :)
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AFL Dyfet Well, the APW rez tools are more like the Mac Resouce script
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compiler, from
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AFL Dyfet what I understand. Not visual, just text. GENESYS is a full
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blown visual
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AFL Dyfet resource editor that appearently genorates supporting code
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routines you can
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik
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AFL Dyfet then include. I have no knowledge of what TML is doing. Anyone
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else like to
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AFL Dyfet add any comments here?
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Coach101 ?
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AFL Dyfet GA Coach.
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach
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Coach101 In writing a record management package, I have been looking at
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some
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Coach101 of the code that the PAW "C" compiler generates. Some of it
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looks
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Coach101 so strange that I think I am missing something. In particular,
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in
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Coach101 accessing a char[<255] item that is passed in, the access could
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Coach101 be simply accomplished with indexed indirect (stack is DP in "C")
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but
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AFA Parik ?
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Coach101 instead the code trundles off to LMUL (or something like that)
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to
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Coach101 do a bunch of address calculation. Is this really necessary (from
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a
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Coach101 hardware viewpoint) or is the compiler just generating code from
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a
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Parik
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Coach101 universal mold that is a TAD inefficient in my case? Thanks GA
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AE PhilM !
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AFL Dyfet GA Phil.
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AE PhilM Coach, the C compiler is not that smart. It does not do
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optimizations as well
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AE PhilM as some of the Pascal Compilers from TML or Byte Works....it
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probably treats
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Phil), Parik
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AE PhilM char like an array and does not special case a single demintonal
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array to use
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AE PhilM indexed addressing...and instead does a mul to find the index.
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AE PhilM done
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AFL Scott !
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AFL Dyfet GA Scott.
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Coach101 Smart... Thats an over statement..... It is never hard to
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Coach101 beat a compiler in code generation.... But, the stuff from the
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Coach101 APW "C" compiler is really something to behold....
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Coach101 That will teach Tim not to be here to defend his product :)
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Coach101 GA
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AFL Scott This is really a question for Phil... To go one step further in
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optimizing...
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Scott), Parik
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AFL Dyfet :) And even a "hello world" can be an impressively sized
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executable in APW C.
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AFL Scott Has AE any plans to write a "Cache optimized" compiler for use on
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systems with
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFL Scott TWGS?
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Coach101 GREAT QUESTION!!!!!
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AE PhilM No, Scott. We are not in the development tools (software)
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business. But we
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AE PhilM are working with TML and the Byte Works so that they can take
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advantage of any
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THE GIBBER Fantastic!!!! A 10 on the scale ;)
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AE PhilM kind of hardware we can produce.
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AFL Scott Thanks, Phil.
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AE PhilM A cache optimizing compiler is difficult at best...you really have
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to know
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AE PhilM the cache algorithm in the TWGS..not very straight forward.
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AE PhilM No offence Coach...I did not do APW C. Megamax Inc and Apple did
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it.
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Scott..Phil), Parik
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AFL Scott Done...
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AE PhilM done
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Coach101 Done
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AFL Dyfet Okay. Any more comments on APW C.
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe the next question is from Parik. GA Parik.
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik
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AFA Parik on the sub of optimizations, does COMPACT optimize code or just
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put it into OMF
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AFA Parik 2 format? also i wish more programmers would put their ds
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statements at the
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AFA Parik end of the program as compact really shrinks down the file even
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more. ga
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Coach101 !
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AE PhilM Compact just puts code in OMF 2 format.
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AFL Dyfet GA Coach.
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Coach101 Phil said it!
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AFL Dyfet True.
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AE PhilM Sorry for buttin in!
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AFL Dyfet That's okay. But now we need to fill the queue again :).
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Coach101 Just keep an eye over your shoulder for Dave's whip :)
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik, <empty>
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AFL Scott !
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AE PhilM Ouch!!
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AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Scott. *CRACK*
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AFL Dyfet (Must be a Tacheon Whip)
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AFL Scott One thing I'd like to see out of the compiler writers/Apple is an
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option to
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AFL Scott include the symbol table lib. as part of, or a separate file that
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can be loaded
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AFL Scott under utilities such as Nifty List, or even the Debugger. That
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way, it would
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AFL Scott make tracing code much easier, and it would bring Nifty List and
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the Debugger
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Coach101 !
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AFL Scott up to a level such as SDA on Vax. GA
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AFL Dyfet GA Coach.
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AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Coach), <empty>
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Coach101 I agree Scott... But it will take more than a compiler symbol
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Coach101 table. In "C", or any other _stack_ based variable language,
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Coach101 the debugger must know how to interpret the "systems" direct
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page
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AE PhilM !
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Coach101 stuff... I believe in ByteWorks "C" there is a source level
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debugger
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Coach101 scheduled to come with the compiler. In any event, if you have
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to
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Coach101 go to a debugger, at least having a hardcopy of the symbol table
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Coach101 would be more than handy. In other words..... I second that
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motion....
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Coach101 Also,
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Coach101 One of my pet peeves is indenting my own code. I would like to
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Coach101 do all my code at the left margin and let the compiler indent
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the
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Coach101 listing (aha, a listing from a "C" compiler, virgin territory)
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to
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Coach101 show what the structure of the program really is. It is real
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easy
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Coach101 when chasing your code to skip a bunch of indented stuff as not
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being
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Coach101 a part of the code being executed because you have a misplaced
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";"
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Coach101 or whatever. GA
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AFL Dyfet GA Phil.
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AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Phil), <empty>
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AE PhilM That's a very good suggestion Scott!! It would be pretty easy to
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do. Apple
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AE PhilM would first have to define a standard (they could use some of the
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un-used
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AE PhilM op-codes in the OMF discription)...then the others will follow
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suit...
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AE PhilM Ask Tim S about this...done
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AFL Dyfet I like that idea, Phil. I've been asking for some kind of Sym
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file or support
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AFL Scott Will do! Thanks, Coach, and Phil!
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AFA Gary J We'll just e-mail him a copy of tonight's log... :)
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AFL Dyfet for YEARS now. Putting it in the OMF is a very good idea. A
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simple utility
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AFL Dyfet could strip it off when your done with the SymDebug and have it
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working...
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AE PhilM Yes, the loader could ignore the symbol opcodes and it would work
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as normal...
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AE PhilM only the debuggers would have to know.
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AE PhilM It's a coordinated effort that has to originate from Apple to have
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any chance
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AE PhilM of succeeding.
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AFL Scott !
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AFL Dyfet In fact, now that I think about it, many other 'profesional'
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environments
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AFL Dyfet this in that manner. GA Scott.
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AFA Gary J Q = Scott, <empty>
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AFL Scott Do Mac compilers have this facility... Dave, I was thinking
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specifically of
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AFL Scott .STB files on Vaxen! :)
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AFL Dyfet I was thinking Unix more than VAX myself...but yes, VAXen do have
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it as a
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AFL Dyfet seperate file.
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AFL Scott I agree, however that OMF is the place to put it on the II's,
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tho... just think
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AFL Dyfet Of course, on the VAX you can get post-mortum debugging and
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procedure call
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AFL Scott of the possiblities!
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AFL Dyfet trace...
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AFL Dyfet I agree that OMF is where it should be. No need to clutter, and
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the loader
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Coach101 Might put the hexadecimal calculator people out of business!
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AFL Dyfet could easily be tought to ignore the STB stuff.
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AFA Gary J Q = <empty>
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AFL Scott <---Lives in SDA :(
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AFL Dyfet Okay, any last questions for tonight.
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I think we can end protocol then...
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AFA Gary J Don't everyone shout at once.... :)
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Coach101 Anyone know the latest "guesstimate" on 5.0 & new APW
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AFA John YAH! :)
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JSchober RSN...
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AFA Gary J I've been looking at calendars here.... Apple can wait until Sept.
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22 and
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AFA Gary J it will still be considered Summer.
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AFA John :)
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AFL Dyfet Yeah, 5.0 products may be out BEFORE 5.0 :).
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JSchober Gack...
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AFA Gary J :)
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AE PhilM Spoke to Jonathan Fader today....5.0 should be licencable to
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developers by July
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AFA Gary J It could be the next AppleFest before we see anything!!
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JSchober :( Gary
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AFL Dyfet TML ships july 1st, after all. Maybe they will have it on the
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disk...:)
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AFL Marty Anytime school is out for more than 2 consecutive weeks is
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summer...
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AFA John I need to get going. Good night everyone.
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AFL Marty as far as I'm concerned :)
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AFA Gary J It must be close though, with all the products anounced with it.
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JSchober Night, John. :)
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AFA Gary J Goodnight, John.
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AE PhilM So does Audio Animator...it requires 5.0. We needed to know if we
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could run
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AE PhilM adds
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AFL Marty TML Pascal II is supposed to ship sith System 5.0.
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AFA Gary J Well, you know how release dates are......
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AFL Marty Yeah :(
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AFA Gary J :(
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Coach101 Yep, soft{ware} dates :)
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AFL Marty Somebody at Apple will find a way to gum up the works :(
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AE PhilM They keep finding bugs from what I here...found one the other day
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in the SCSI
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AFA Gary J Yep. Well, I'll try to be optimistic about this one. July 1st
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sounds good
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AFA Gary J to me.
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AE PhilM manager...they fixed it tho
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Coach101 From limited discussions with Rob Turner, I feel the internal
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Coach101 freeze date is REAL close!
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AE PhilM One week is what I heard...but I heard that last week.
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AFL Marty Maybe they should let ADV members beta test the disk.
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AFA Gary J typical.. :)
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AFL Dyfet TML is betting heavily that they will be able to ship July 1st.
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