477 lines
20 KiB
Plaintext
477 lines
20 KiB
Plaintext
AppleLink
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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May 9, 1989 10:00 p.m. eastern time
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Topic: Apple IIGS Toolbox Programming
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Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFA Gary J)
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AFA Gary J OK....I guess we'll get started if we aren't getting a
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banner....
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AFA Parik ???? (question to get into Queue)
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AFA Gary J Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum.
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Coach101 from what I have seen about the Ohio Kache system, I can't see
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5.0
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AFL Vince I disagree, Coach.. Catch my review of all three in Call-Apple in
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a couple months.
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Coach101 doing that much.
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AFA Gary J Tonight's topic (if we decide to stick to it) is Apple IIGS
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Toolbox Programming
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JSchober I =might= get a TWGS at 10 MHz. IF the price doesn't rise...
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AFA Gary J AFL Dyfet is away this evening, so I'll be standing in for him.
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AFL Vince Did anyone tell you about GeneSys, Gary?
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AFL Scott Coach, think about how fast the GS is with TWGS AND V5, then
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multiply disk
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AFA Gary J GeneSys? Seems like I heard something about that....
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AFL Marty ?
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AFL Scott access speed by about 4... Rocket is what you get!:)
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Coach101 I agree with you Vince & Scott... Found "Sir AWGS"'s statement
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JSchober Gawwwwd, Scott. That's... ::faint::
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AFA Gary J What is it?
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Coach101 hard to swallow. On reads, mayube, on writes, forget it...
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AFL Vince A new product announced at Applefest that may be of some interest
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to everyone in this forum was
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AFL Scott Will have to find it to see what he meant... Seems like OS bashing
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is a fad
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AFL Scott at Claris!
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AFL Vince GeneSys.. GeneSys is a program generator for the GS... A VERY
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nice one
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AFL Scott Howdy, Big guy!
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JSchober Program GENERATOR? Hey, Matt... :)
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AFA Gary J We'll dispense with protocol this evening unless a bunch more
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people decide to
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AFA Gary J drop in, Marty.
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JSchober Hey, Dave. :) (Wow, it's the DTS dudes! :)
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Matt DTS Hello. Dave is late.
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JSchober Two seconds is "late"?? :)
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Dave Lyons Matt is late too. But he'll say it's my fault.
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AFA Gary J Yes, I do recall now. It generates windows and menus for you?
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AFL Vince It will create code for Windows, Dialogs, Menus, etc. In C,
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Pascal, Assm, and the new Res format..
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AFL Marty What;s the difference between Genesys and that utility for
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designing
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Matt DTS It *IS* your fault.
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Dave Lyons (See?)
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AFA Gary J (Hi Dave, Matt)
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AFL Scott Howdy, Dave!
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AFL Marty screen menus (I forget its name).
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JSchober Hmmmm... Vince... like a SuperDuperDLU, huh?
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AFL Vince DLU, Marty?
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JSchober Hi, Dwight.
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Dave Lyons How many 'Fest-ers do we have here? (Matt & I were there.)
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AFL Marty That's it.... DLU
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Matt DTS "Genesys", perhaps?
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AFL Vince Joe, yes only much more.. I was fairly impressed with the
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potential.
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AFL Vince Matt, yes.
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AFA Parik regarding Genesys - a demo will be available on GEnie (and here I
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guess :) in a
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AFA Parik couple of days.
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JSchober Hmmm. Sounds neat. I could use such a thing... :)
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AFL Vince Parik.. I have it to upload.
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AFA Gary J Vince, how efficient is the code that is generated?
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AFL Marty I still don't know the difference.
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AFL Marty What does GeneSys do that DLU doesn't?
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AFL Vince Gary... since it mostly generates structures I would guess fairly
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efficient..
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AFL Vince Menus, Windows, Controls, etc.. Also generates tool startup and
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shutdown.. It's DLU magnified
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Coach101 Whats the tariff on Genesys?
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JSchober Welp, folks... I have to run, and study. Yecch. Y'all take care,
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and see
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AFL Vince The price was the only thing that depressed me... $125..
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AFA Gary J Bye, Joe
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AFA Gary J Hi Frank
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JSchober you next week!! :) <SG: it's STILL not fair... but thanks. :)
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>
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Matt DTS Tool Startup and shut down is really easy to generate under 5.0
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anyway
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AFA Gary J Hi Dwight
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JSchober Hi Frank... and bye. 'Night!
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Coach101 CUL Joe
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AFL Vince it will sell at Afest in Sept for $75 according the the
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company..
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Matt DTS (Since there are _StartUpTools and _ShutDownTools calls which take
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tool tables as input)
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AFL FrankD Hi there, Gary!
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AFL Vince Matt... unfortunately, we wouldnt know... ;)
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Coach101 DTS folks..... Any more firm information on actual release date
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AFL Vince You could always tell us about it.......drool...
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AFA Parik Lemme sneak this in: was orca/m v2.0 released at AppleFest? I'm
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gonna call and
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AFL Scott (that IS nice, Matt!!)
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Matt DTS This summer, coach.
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AFA Parik order it tommorow, but would like a nice nights sleep :)
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DwightW1 hello
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Coach101 of 5.0, wil you take advance orders through APDA?
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Dave Lyons I don't know of any ORCA/M announcements, personally.
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AFA Parik hellllooo?
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AFA Gary J DTS people, could you fill us in on some of the "nifty" developer
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type details
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AFA Gary J of 5.0?
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Coach101 Did Mike get ORCA-C out the door?
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Matt DTS There's about 1000 pages of engineering-level developer
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documentation, Gary.
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AFA Gary J (Anything more than the press release tells us?)
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Matt DTS Perhaps more specific questions would be in order. :-)
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AFL Vince ships in 3 weeks..
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AFA Gary J :)
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Coach101 Then, you had better type fast!
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AFA Gary J Right!
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFA Parik How much faster is EXPRESSLOAD versus standard System Loader?
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Coach101 Question, how fast is the I/O... I saw talk of 1:1 speed.. What
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does
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Coach101 that mean (if true)
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Dave Lyons That probably depends on a lot of things. (Helpful, eh?)
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AFA Gary J Such as?
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Dave Lyons There is *effectively* 1:1 interleave on 3.5 disks now, with
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ScatterRead:
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Matt DTS Gary, can you provide protocol so this can work fairly well?
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<please>
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Coach101 Anybody else notice the change in Dave recently :)
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AFA Parik hehe
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Dave Lyons the driver reads the blocks in whatever order they appear on disk
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(normally 2:1 still), so you can
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AFA Gary J OK... Protocol *ON* <just for Matt :) >
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AFL Vince ?
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Dave Lyons read a whole track in one revolution.
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Dave Lyons (ga)
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AFL Marty <-- hates prorotol
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AFA Gary J Q = Vince
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AFL Marty <-- hates protocol, too :)
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Matt DTS <let me catch expressload first, Gary>
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AFA Gary J OK, GA Matt
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Coach101 ?
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Matt DTS ExpressLoad pre-processes OMF files using shortcuts when possible,
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and provides for a private data...
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Matt), Vince, Coach
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Matt DTS ...segment so ExpressLoad knows where segments are, instead of
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thrashing through the file looking.
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Matt DTS AppleWorks GS loads approximately four times faster just due to
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ExpressLoad; Scatter Read drops it to
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Matt DTS somewhere around 35 seconds. <GA>
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AFA Parik so the standard loader is still required (eg, no disk space
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saving)
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Matt DTS (loading all modules, that is)(
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AFA Parik ga
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Matt DTS The standard loader is still required. Expressed files are in
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OMF; the Loader can load them also.
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Matt DTS ExpressLoad just gets first crack. <GA>
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AFA Gary J Ok, anything else, Parik?
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AFA Parik not for now
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AFL Marty ?
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Coach101 Scatter read?
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AFA Gary J Ok, Vince GA with your question
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AFL Vince Jim described a new tool that helps with creating a text editor..
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can you elaborate a bit on what this
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AFL Vince might be?
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AFA Gary J Q = Vince, Coach, Marty
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Matt DTS 5.0 provides the new tool TextEdit.
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Matt DTS TE is like LineEdit, except it works on multi-line fields, like a
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limited word-processor.
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AFL Vince <-- has followup
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Matt DTS It allows the editing functions, as well as painting images to
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ports and retrieving text.
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Matt DTS It also allows multiple font styles/sizes. It works as a control,
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which means that TaskMaster
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Matt DTS will do all the work for you. It's tool #34 and will be explained
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in the developer docs that will
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Matt DTS be available when the disk ships. <GA>
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AFL Vince Has the scrollling through Taskmaster been improved at all?
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Matt DTS Scrolling isn't all TaskMaster's fault, or even mostly.
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AFA Parik ?
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DwightW1 ?
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Matt DTS It's the fault of people who redraw entire windows instead of just
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their update regions, mostly.
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AFA Gary J Q = Vince, Coach, Marty, Parik, Dwight
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Matt DTS But since QuickDraw has sped up region handling (esp. for
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rectangular regions), programs who did
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Matt DTS it either way will see performance improvements. <GA>
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AFL Vince Thanks, GA
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AFA Gary J Ok, Coach, GA
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Coach101 Back to I/O....
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Coach101 Does read a track in rev mean that with a 1:1 interleave I could
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do it....
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Coach101 and what was the reference to Scatter Read. GA
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Marty, Parik, Dwight
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Matt DTS Scatter Read is what we call a new feature in the Apple 3.5 Drive
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driver in System Software 5.0
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Matt DTS (Notice we're not calling this "GS/OS 5.0", because most of the
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changes were tool changes that have...
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Matt DTS ...nothign to do with GS/OS). Under certain conditions, the
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driver actually has enough time...
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Matt DTS ...to read an entire track in one revolution of the disk, and
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decode the blocks and interleave later.
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Matt DTS Since it reads the track in one spin, this can be referred to as
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an "effective 1:1" interleave, even
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Matt DTS though the actual interleave on the disk is irrelevant. With 2:1
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disks, this gives slightly
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Matt DTS less (for housekeeping reasons) than a doubling of the speed.
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Matt DTS (The read must be a multi-block read of more than 5 blocks to
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memory that is not slow or shadowed, and
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Matt DTS the read must not be cached. If any of those are true, the timing
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can't be made.) <GA>
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AFA Gary J Anything else, Coach?
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Coach101 I see.... Neat trick..... This would imply that 1:1
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interleave
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Coach101 could even work in certian limited cases.... Though the penalty
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for
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Coach101 missing would be attrocious.....
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Coach101 That concludes my ? GA
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AFA Gary J Ok, Marty GA
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AFA Gary J Q = Marty, Parik, Dwight
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AFL Marty Your AWGS example (35 seconds)... how many modules are being
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loaded?
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AFA Parik (hi dave :)
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Matt DTS All of them. <GA> :-)
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AFA Gary J Hi, Dave
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AFL Dyfet Hello :)
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Coach101 Good morning Dave
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Dave Lyons !
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AFL Marty I understand that programs must go through a procedure...
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AFL Marty in order for ExpressLoad to work.....
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AFL Marty is this something the end user can do or must I (we) wait
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for....
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AFL Marty an upgrade from software vendors to take advantage of
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ExpressLoad?
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Matt DTS yes and no.
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AFA Gary J Q = Marty (Matt, Dave), Parik, Dwight
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Matt DTS The utility Express (or ExpressIIgs in MPW land) converts a load
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file to ExpressLoad format.
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Matt DTS This is necessary before ExpressLoad can use it, as this utility
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does the pre-processing.
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Matt DTS The end user with APW or similar *could* do this, but there's the
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caveat that ExpressLoad is unable
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Matt DTS to support some Loader calls. Specifically, LoadSegmentbyNumber,
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UnloadSegmentbyNumber (because
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Matt DTS Express rearranges the segments for maximum speed) and
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GetLoadSegInfo (because Express doesn't use
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Matt DTS the Loader's data structures). If the program uses those calls,
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it should *not* be Expressed.
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Matt DTS However, we find that their use has been pretty limited,
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especially since Load/UnloadSegByName is
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Matt DTS so much more useful anyway. So it's possible, but not recommended
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for the faint of heart.
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AFL Marty Where does this leave the end user without APW or similar?
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Matt DTS I did it on my DESK.ACCS directory at home and got a 33% decrease
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in boot time, for example.
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Matt DTS The end user who's not knowledgeable is always better off waiting
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for upgrades.
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Coach101 ?
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Matt DTS (There are certain universal truths, and one is that you can't
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always get blinding speed completely
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AFL Marty Let me offer an example...
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Matt DTS transparently. ExpressLoad is one of those instances. Sorry.)
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AFA Gary J Q = Marty (Matt, Dave), Parik, Dwight
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AFA Gary J Q + Coach :)
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AFL Marty I'm thinking of something like Music Studio, which takes an
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eternity
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AFL Marty to load now....
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AFL Marty The company which publishes it isn't exactly tops in product
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support. What
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AFL Marty can the end user do in this case (if anything)?
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Matt DTS The user is in the same place he is now, and was a while back
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without APW when COMPACT came out.
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Matt DTS There are certain things which usually work but can't be
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guaranteed, like COMPACTing or EXPRESSing
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AFA Parik SOL? :)
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AFL Marty Between a rock and a hard place.
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Matt DTS programs you didn't write. That's why they're developer tools we
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strongly encourage developers
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Matt DTS to use. Sorry. <GA>
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AFL Marty done
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AFA Gary J Dave, did you want to add something?
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AFA Gary J (Dave Lyons)
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Dave Lyons Coach, wasn't paying close attention a minute ago: there would be
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almost no point to actually having
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Dave Lyons 1:1 interleave, since you almost get it anyway, *some* of the
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time, but not all of the time. Sorry
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Dave Lyons to regress. :)
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Dave Lyons (ga)
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AFA Gary J Ok, Parik, GA with your question
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Coach101 Hmmmmm.... If you read a whole track! Partial tracks could
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Coach101 still (maybe, some of the time) benefit from 1:1
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AFA Parik can fonts be placed anywhere now, instead of just the font
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directory? and how
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik, Dwight, Coach
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AFA Parik is data fork editing going to be handed, a new toolset? or will
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the init file
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AFA Parik handle everything? ga
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Matt DTS Fonts still go in the FONTS directory. The Font Manager does not
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support adding fonts from
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Matt DTS resources on 5.0 since the search paths and all were very
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complicated and didn't make it in.
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Matt DTS As for "data fork editing", this I almost completely fail to
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understand.
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Matt DTS <GA>
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AFL Dyfet Would you care to clearify that, Parik?
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AFA Gary J Anything else, Parik?
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AFA Parik changing something inside the resources.. (eg, changing data w/o
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program)
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Matt DTS No resource editor is provided with the System Software. <GA>
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AFA Parik ga
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AFA Gary J Ok Dwight, you're up.
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DwightW1 why a 'sput' background noise with each played note utilizing the
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note...
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AFA Gary J Q = Dwight, Coach
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DwightW1 synthesizer? (ga)
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Matt DTS <Dave's gonna take this one>
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Dave Lyons I don't know anything about it. Have you tried
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Dave Lyons the program on another machine & gotten the same noise?
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DwightW1 dave, the program is my own, utilizing only my IIgs
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DwightW1 the sound is from BACH's prelude
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Dave Lyons If you have a fan, see if removing it makes any difference; try it
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on another person's machine &
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DwightW1 i meant song
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Dave Lyons see if the noise is still there. I don't think there is anything
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inherent about the note
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Dave Lyons syntehsizer that makes you always get noise.
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Dave Lyons (ga)
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DwightW1 will try and thank you (ga)
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AFA Gary J Coach, GA with your question
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach
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Coach101 Thanks...
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Coach101 Do not mean to belabor a point... But I have not completed my
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Coach101 Developer package quite yet and was wondering if the summer
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release
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Coach101 meant through APDA with docs. Or if the release will happen in
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Coach101 summer and the docs (through APDA) for non-developers will follow
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some
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Coach101 time later. GA
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Matt DTS Software and documentation will be available this summer. <GA>
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Coach101 Thanks GA
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AFA Gary J Any idea if this means early or late summer??? :)
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DwightW1 ?
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Matt DTS It means summer.
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Coach101 :)
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AFA Gary J Figures :)
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AFA Gary J GA Dwight
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Coach101 Summer.... In which hemisphere?
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AFA Gary J Q = Dwight
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DwightW1 a side question......
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DwightW1 have you noticed how few people are here tonight......
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AFA Parik hangovers :)
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DwightW1 is this tied to the fact that the development forum was
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completely
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Coach101 ?
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DwightW1 left out of the applelink schedule for this entire month. why
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DwightW1 /wjy?
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AFA Gary J It may have had something to do with the fact that we had no
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banner tonight as
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AFA Gary J well.
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AFL Scott (Good question)
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AFL Dyfet Yes, that is.
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AFL Dyfet Especially since May was on file from Jim...
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFL Dyfet The first schedule I had to submit was for July, in fact :)
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AFA Gary J Jim's not around this evening to answer that one...
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AFL Scott (May was the first month we were supposed use the new form... Jims
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was in old
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AFL Scott format, I think)
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DwightW1 ....i see (ga)
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach
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AFA Gary J GA, Coach
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Coach101 Matt,
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Coach101 Some time back you floated a trial balloon about ALPE becoming
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the
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Coach101 place for CDs to get support (as opposed to ALAE). Anything come
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of
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Coach101 the discussion? GA
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AFA Gary J Good question, Coach.
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AFL Cheryl hi all...BRB...blew myself up here :(
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Matt DTS If you mean has an announcment been made, no. But we're still
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very interested in opinions through...
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Matt DTS ...all the usual channels so we can keep them on paper until the
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Apple XXVIII is outdated. <GA>
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AFL Dyfet Well, my opinion is do it :)
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AFL Marty ?
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AFA Gary J Anything else, Coach?
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Coach101 What I meant (and you answered) is that the idea is alive and the
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issue
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Coach101 not yet resolved... Thanks....
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Coach101 GA
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AFA Gary J Q = Marty
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AFL Vince I heard lots of talk about this at afest with rilla(?) and Q
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folks... :) looks good...real good..
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AFA Gary J I'd sure like to see it as well.
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AFA Gary J GA, Marty
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AFL Marty Pardon my tone....
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AFL Marty but how many opinions does DTS need?
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFA Parik 32768...
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AFL Marty Everyone I've heard speak about this has been in favor of the
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idea...
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AFA Parik then the high bit is turned on.
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AFL Marty so what's taking so blasted long.
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Coach101 Overflow..... 32767.... Or, for Matt, stop at 10
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AFL Marty Come on... this is a serious question.
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AFA Gary J Ask people on GEnie, they may not agree :)
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Coach101 :)
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AFA Gary J (But so what???)
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AFL Marty I have.... and they agree for the most part.
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Matt DTS The opinions have been taken under advisement, Marty. That's all
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I can say. <GA>
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AFL Marty My principal talks that way.
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AFL Marty done
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AFA Gary J Q = <empty>
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AFA Gary J Dave asked earlier, but how many people here DID attend
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AppleFest?
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AFA Parik not me
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AFL Cheryl I did!!!
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AFL Dyfet I wasn't :(
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Coach101 Not me
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AFL Cheryl (re-hi, all :)
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AFA Parik who's gonna attend DeveloperWorld?
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DwightW1 couldn't make it
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AFA Gary J I wasn't
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AFA Parik (not me again :)
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AFL Vince I did
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AFL Scott Was there, too..
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DwightW1 would love to go but i know i will miss it also
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AFL Scott NOT at Developerworld... or whatever... $$$$$
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AFA Parik who's gonna be at KansasWorld then? :)
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AFL Marty <--- KansasFest
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AFA Parik (not me, once more...:( ) but at SF Fest, i'll be.
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AFL Vince Would have liked to have gone to Spring Dev Conference, but I cant
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afford to be an Apple developer.:)
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AFA Gary J Dorthy and Toto too.
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AFL Marty <-- on a panel :)
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AFA Parik control?
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AFL Marty I have no control :)
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DwightW1 as an offshoot to Vince's response, it seems easier to become an
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Apple
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AFL Marty Discussion of fonts and stuff like that.
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DwightW1 developer now!
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AFL Marty Mark!
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AFA Parik ohhh! with mark I bet! (speak of the devil :)
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AFA Parik Only if you got extra $$$ lying around Dwight (I don't)
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AFC Mark Uh Oh... B-)
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AFA Gary J Right, Dwight. Money talks.
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AFL Vince If you've got a spare 6 bills or so it is...
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AFL Cheryl what is a KansasFest?????
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DwightW1 ha ha ha
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Dave Lyons I'll be at KansasFest.
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AFL Vince A2 Central's developer conference
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Matt DTS In the lack of anything except generic criticism of the
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departments where I work, I'll be leaving.
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AFA Gary J KansasFest = A2 Central's conference
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AFL Marty It's a rest home for folks who over-punctuate their questions :)
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Matt DTS See y'all next week.
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AFA Parik bye matt. :)
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Coach101 Good evening Matt,,,,
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Coach101 Have a nice nite Matt!
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AFL Dyfet Night Matt.
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AFA Gary J Goodnight, Matt. Thanks for coming.
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AFL Marty Party hearty Matt!
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AFC Mark night, Matt
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AFA Parik Question: Will technotes be more and more coming online a bit
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faster? I dunno
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AFA Parik if the march technotes are online yet, they're good. Not sure
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when my CD
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AFA Parik expires, but when it doesn't i'd like to have another source of TN
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besides APDA
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AFA Gary J March's technotes aren't online yet. Jim L has said they should
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be on in a
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AFA Gary J week or so.
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AFA Gary J (Too much to prepare for in AppleFest and Developer's
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conference)
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