536 lines
21 KiB
Plaintext
536 lines
21 KiB
Plaintext
AppleLink
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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March 21, 1989 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
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Topic: Programming Utilities and Environments
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Forum Leader: James Luther (AFL Jim)
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AFL Jim Howdy
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AFL Dyfet Hello Jim!
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HazelH1 Hi guys
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Dave Lyons (No parentheses needed, Joe. :-)
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Matt DTS You guys should have seen Mr. Luther today reconstructing our
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offices like a real pro...
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AFA Gary J Hi Jim!
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AFL Dyfet Oh my...
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Dave Lyons <sniff> _My_ TNs haven't arrived....
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Matt DTS ...makes me wonder if maybe he missed his calling (or at least one
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of them).
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JSchober Yeah, but aesthetics, Dave. :) BTW, I sent a mild nasty-gram on
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info-apple
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JSchober about your comment that I don't like ShareWare. :)
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AFL Jim :P Matt
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AFL Marty Hi Jim
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Dave Lyons (If you want aestehtics, use "true" instead of "1=1" :-)
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AFL Marty [[[Hazel]]]
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Matt DTS (Did you get that done, anyway? Did you pile all the garbage in
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Dave's office like we said?)
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HazelH1 HI Marty :)
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JSchober LOL... hey, good point, Dave! Forgot THAT... (not like I use it
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often or
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JSchober anything...)
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AFL Jim Dave, I'm still giving passing out constant reminders that we need
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the March
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AFL Jim Tech Notes in text files.
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JSchober Hi Bill...
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Lombar I've never been in here before, what's the etiquette like?
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Dave Lyons What's this...do I have an office?
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BillP Hi Joe
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HazelH1 Howdy Bill!
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Matt DTS They still have to be converted by hand, and they just haven't
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been done yet. <shrugging>
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AFA Gary J Welcome, Lombar.
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Matt DTS Dave: Yeah, but you don't wanna go in it yet... <evil grin>
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Dave Lyons What etiquette? :)
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BillP Hi Hazel! Been a long time!
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AFL Dyfet Welcome aboard Lombar...
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AFL Marty Down the hall Dave.... to the left.... tile walls, tile floor :)
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Lombar Thanx.
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AFL Jim Well, let's get started here...
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Matt DTS or there...
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AFA John Hi Hazel!
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Dave Lyons :)
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Matt DTS (Sorry - I'm in /behave mode now...)
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Lombar :)
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AFL Jim Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum! Tonight, our topic is
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programming
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AFL Jim utilities and programming environments. We'll follow forum
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protocol, so if you
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AFL Jim have a question, type a question mark on a line by itself. If you
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have a
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AFL Jim comment on the current topic, type an exclamation point on a line
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by itself.
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AFL Jim We'll keep track of who asked to speak first and call on you when
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it's your
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AFL Jim turn.
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Parik Dude ?
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik
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Matt DTS [I hate software]
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AFL Jim To start off with, I'd like to introduce my replacement here on
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AppleLink (yes
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AFL Jim I'm leaving the ranks of AFLs). Starting in April, the new Forum
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Leader will
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AFL Jim be Dave Sugar!
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AFA Gary J Welcome, Dave!!
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Matt DTS <fanfare and tocatta>
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AFL Jim Say Hi, Dave.
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Parik Dude Hi, Dave.
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AFL Dyfet Thank you! I hope to keep things smooth during the change...
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Dave Lyons Hi, Dave.
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JSchober Hi, Dave! (Dave L, stop talking to yourself...)
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AFL Dyfet Dave's recursive
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Parik Dude What's Dyfet mean? (not my question :)
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Matt DTS If you need anything from DTS, be sure to ask us so we can ignore
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you as equally as we did Jim. <grin>
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JSchober heheh
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AFL Marty (recursive = swears repeatedly)
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BillP :)
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AFL Dyfet Older form of David....so I wouldn't get confused with a certain
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other Dave :)
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AFL Jim I'll be here still, but in an unofficial capacity.
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Parik Dude unofficial capacitance is the best.
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BillP me too :)
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AFL Jim You mean MacDave, Dave??
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFL Dyfet MacDave! :) Another one!
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Matt DTS I can see how "AFL Sugar" might lead to some weird E-mail, that's
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true.
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JSchober LOL Matt...
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AFL Jim Let's get on to the questions... Parik, I believe you are first in
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the queue.
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AFL Jim GA
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AFL Dyfet :)
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Lombar I hate to sound impatient, especially for a newcomer, but my VISA
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doesn't
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Parik Dude In the AUT forum, in INITs library a file that "speeds up text
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output by alot.
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Lombar stretch very far...
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AFA Gary J (Looks like Matt has a bug in his "behave mode" :)
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Parik Dude Has anyone used this? Is it a RAM driver? Just got it today, and
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wondering
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Parik Dude what it does. I think Orca was fassst...
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Parik Dude think = thought (but I still think) ga
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik
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AFL Jim I haven't seen it. Anyone else?
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Matt DTS !
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AFL Jim GA Matt
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Matt DTS No.
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JSchober ! (shuffling up as AUT rep...)
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AFL Jim GA Joe
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Matt DTS It could be an INIT that speeds up QuickDraw text drawing, not
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actual text screen I/O...
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Matt DTS ...but I think I'll let Joe talk. GA
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JSchober It patches into the Pascal text-screen (80 col... well, I guess 40
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col, too,
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Joe)
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JSchober if you wanted) Text Toolset. I don't know WHAT it does to that
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toolset, but
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JSchober anything that uses Text Tools on a Pascal driver goes like greased
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lightning.
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JSchober ORCA and APW seem to have the best improvements. I haven't
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noticed any
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Matt DTS I can *guess*...
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AFL Dyfet !
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JSchober compatibility problems or anything like that. GA...
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AFL Jim Dave, GA
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dave)
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AFL Dyfet How does it compare to the GS/OS console driver?
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AFL Jim (Matt, you can type an !, too)
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Dave Lyons !
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Matt DTS ! (Oh, I thought my last ! was still active. My mistake)
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AFL Jim Joe, comparison??
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JSchober It's faster, Dave. It's REAAAL fast. Short bugger (4 blks),
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too.
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JSchober <that's unofficial, BTW, I can time it if you really want...>
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dave L, Matt)
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AFL Jim Dave Lyons, GA
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AFL Jim (and I think I'll start using Dyfet :)
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Dave Lyons We're talking about Paul Elseth's FASTEXT init, right?
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JSchober (just type "Dyfet" 20 times fast...)
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JSchober Righto, Dave.
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Dave Lyons If you wanna know what it does...it replaces a few functions in
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the Text Tools:
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Dave Lyons specifically
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Dave Lyons Just a sec:
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AFP Draco Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet
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Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet
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JSchober (that was 16 times and slow... ;)
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AFL Dyfet !
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Matt DTS We now return to our program.
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Dave Lyons Geez...printer jammed. Anyway, it replaces WriteCString and
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WriteString,
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Dave Lyons mostly, and it checks for the special case of printing to slot 3
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with no
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Dave Lyons the firmware separately for each character. I keep it installed
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all the time--
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AFA Gary J Ooops
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Dave Lyons speeds things up a lot. (done)
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Parik Dude ? (another question)
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AFL Jim Matt, GA
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Matt, Dyfet)
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AFA Gary J Q + Parik
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Matt DTS Since the Text Tools are mainly an arbiter, they pass everything
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along to the firmware, when some...
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Matt DTS ...of the stuff might be doable a little faster, as this init
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shows. The speed increase is quite...
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Matt DTS ...nice, but we still recommend that programmers use the Console
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driver because it's not...
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Matt DTS ...slot dependent. (See GS/OS TN #4 for more details, I think.)
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GA.
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AFL Jim Dyfet, GA
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dyfet), Parik
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AFL Dyfet It seems DL and Matt just answered both parts of my
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question/statement! GA
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Parik Dude Has anyone here actually GOT Merlin 16+? I'm looking for
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something that is
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Matt DTS Ha! We got him! Hazing has begun!
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Parik Dude like Orca/M but a faster assembler & linker... ga
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DennisDoms !
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AFL Jim Somebody?? Anybody? GA Dennis
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Lombar ?
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Parik Dude (don't say "No" again Matt... :)
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DennisDoms `I've got it; I wouldn't claim to know it well yet.
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Dave Lyons !
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dennis, Dave), Lombar
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DennisDoms It does have provisions for importing ORCA files (HodgePodge is
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used...
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AFL Jim Done Dennis??
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AFL Jim oops
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DennisDoms as an example of a conversion).
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DennisDoms GA (Done...typing "blind" :).
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Dave Lyons I've got it too, but haven't used it a lot. If you're looking for
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something a
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AFL Jim GA Dave
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Dave Lyons _little_ bit faster, Merlin 16+ is not what you want. It's a LOT
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faster. :)
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Parik Dude :)
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JSchober heheh
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Dave Lyons (Whoops...you didn't even say "a little." There I go making a
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minimal amount
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Parik Dude thanks, GA
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Dave Lyons of sense again...oh, well.) done.
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AFL Jim How's linking to other languages?
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Dave Lyons !
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AFL Jim GA Dave
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Dave Lyons It can be done, but it's an extra step, I think--normally it
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doesn't generate
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Dave Lyons OMF files, but it's an option.
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Dave Lyons (done)
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dave), Lombar
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AFL Jim GA with your question, Lombar
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Lombar I've just ordered ORCA/M. I like the reviews on the ORCA
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products, but admit
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Lombar ignorance.....
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Lombar I want one shell to eventually do everything. Can I add, say, the
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Merlin
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AFP Draco ?
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Lombar assembler to the ORCA shell and use the ORCA pascal?
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Matt DTS !
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AFA Gary J Q = Lombar (Matt), Kent
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AFL Jim I don't think you can add Merlin to the APW or ORCA environment
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unless Glen
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AFL Jim Bredon has really changed him design :)
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AFL Jim GA Matt
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Lombar It's been four years since I did any compiler-type programming....
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DONE
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AFL Jim Him = His
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Matt DTS Merlin is one of the three IIgs compilers or assemblers you can
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NOT add to the ORCA shell...
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Matt DTS (the other two being MPW IIgs Assembler and MPW IIgs C :-)
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However, you have the concept right...
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AFA Gary J :)
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Matt DTS ...in that multiple languages may be added to ORCA or APW and all
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used under one shell. It's just...
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Matt DTS ...that Merlin is not available in a version that runs under the
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ORCA/APW shell. It has it's own.
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Matt DTS GA.
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Lombar ?
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AFL Jim GA Lombar
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AFA Gary J Q = Lombar, Kent
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AFL Jim (you still have the floor)
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Lombar Is it best to use all one brand of product line, or is it fairly
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safe to
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Lombar mix and match without worrying about compatabilities?
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AFL Jim You're fairly safe mixing one high level language with assembly,
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but you
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AFL Jim may run into some problems if you try to mix two high level
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languages such as
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AFL Jim Pascal and C (or for that matter, ORCA Pascal and TML Pascal).
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AFL Jim GA
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Lombar I thought that according to what I read about the TML/ORCA shells,
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you could
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Lombar mix and match C, Pascal, and Assy. without any problems. Anyone
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have exper-
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Lombar ience with this?
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AFL Jim You can, but....
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AFL Jim The high level languages all use slightly different ways of
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passing parameters
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AFL Jim and may depend on certain global routines and variables to be
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present at run-
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Lombar Okay, I get it. I'll just forge ahead and stick with one brand of
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environ.
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AFL Jim time. You have to really know what the languages are doing at a
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fairly low
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AFL Jim level to make them talk to each other.
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Matt DTS !
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AFA Gary J Q = Lombar (Matt), Kent
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AFL Jim assembly is the common denominator.
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AFL Jim GA Matt
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Lombar I'm done for now. Thanks.
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Matt DTS For this purpose, you can consider APW and ORCA to be the "same
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environment"; to wit:
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Matt DTS You can use APW C or the "APW version" of TML Pascal with the ORCA
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system with no problems. GA.
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Lombar One more question...
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AFL Jim Kent, GA with your question...
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Matt DTS (uh-oh. Question contention)
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AFP Draco no let him have it
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AFL Jim OK, GA Lombar
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AFA Gary J Q = Lombar, Kent
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Lombar I only have 512K :(. Are there any pascal compilers I can use
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besides Apple's
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Lombar I want to stick with a desktop environ
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AFL Dyfet !
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AFA Gary J !
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AFA Gary J Q = Lombar (Dyfet), Kent
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AFL Jim Nope, TML requires 768K and ORCA requires a Meg I think.
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AFL Jim GA Dyfet
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AFL Dyfet I would suggest TML, which has a full desktop environment, but, as
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mentioned,
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AFL Dyfet it requires 768K...GA
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Lombar OK. GA Kent.
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AFP Draco Thanks... I wanted to change to subject a little.
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AFP Draco Dyfet (Dave): What's the latest word on COMMAND.COM? When (if
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ever) will we see an upgrade?
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AFL Dyfet !
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AFL Jim GA Dyfet
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AFA Gary J Q = Kent (Dyfet)
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AFL Jim :)
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AFL Dyfet No, I didn't bribe Kent for that question :). Well, we have taken
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Command.COM
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AFL Dyfet back from PinPoint, and we will be re-releasing Command.COM
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'release II', with
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AFP Draco I LOVE Command.COM, that's why I asked.
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AFL Dyfet all the goodies we have and with Xterm 2.0 as a complete package.
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For those
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Matt DTS ! ("We" = ?)
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AFL Dyfet unclear as to what Command.COM is, it is a programmable shell
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and
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AFL Dyfet communications environment for ProDOS 8 with MANY features and
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over 200 command
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AFL Dyfet programs. (done...I think...:)
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AFL Jim Dyfet, WE = ??
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AFL Dyfet Oh, sorry, that would be WE as in HyperDyne Software...
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AFL Jim Dave, would you like to tell us what else HyperDyne is up to?
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AFL Jim (giving you this las chance to soapbox it before you do it and
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look like a
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AFL Dyfet Sure. HDS is putting out Bbasic // for the Apple // (ProDOS 8
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based) also, and
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AFL Jim self promoter :)
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AFL Marty (BBasic???)
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JSchober <Blankenship BASIC, Applesoft with a kick... it's great!> <===
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unbiased, too!
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AFL Dyfet we will have a number of surprises (GS specific) by the end of the
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year. HDS
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AFL Jim HDS = Hyper Dave Sugar
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AFL Dyfet also has an add-on toolkit for Command.COM. Bbasic // is an
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enhanced Basic
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AFP Draco Dave - will you be posting some of your COM files soon?
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AFL Marty (must be too much sugar in his diet :)
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AFL Dyfet programming environment. It's fully structured, has better disk
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and graphics
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AFP Draco (( Despite rumors to the contrary, Sugar Daddy is NOT dave's
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father! ))
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AFA Gary J heheh
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AFL Dyfet support, and in many ways extends Applesoft into a very useful
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environment.
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AFL Marty :)
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DwightW1 how does bbasic compare with tml basic?
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AFL Dyfet In regards to COM programs (in regards to Kent's comment), most
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everything we
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JSchober !
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AFA Gary J Q = (Joe)
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AFL Dyfet have will be included already with release II of Command.COM.
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(done???)
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AFL Jim GA Joe
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JSchober I figure Dave could use outside comments. ;) BBasic sits there
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and pretends
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JSchober it's Applesoft -- until you start programming, you can't tell it's
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not. But
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JSchober it offers all sorts of commands -- kinda like the GS toolbox in
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BASIC; that's
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JSchober the best way I can think of to describe it. (Although, unless I
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really missed
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JSchober something, it does =not= support the GS specially; it's 128K //e c
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GS...) GA!
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JSchober :)
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AFL Jim Dwight, does that explain thing OK?
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AFL Dyfet (good try...most of our products seem to defy easy description
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:)
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DwightW1 yes
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JSchober :) Well, that's true... ;)
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AFL Jim Well, the queue is empty.... Does anyone have anything new to
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bring up this
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AFL Jim week?
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Dave Lyons MIDI?
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Matt DTS (oh, God...)
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Dave Lyons I managed to play a note yesterday. :-)
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AFL Jim GA Dave
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JSchober ()()()
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AFL Marty C#
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Dave Lyons The Toolbox Reference Update info is incomplete, but along with
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JSchober No, no, Bb, Marty! Sheesh...
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Dave Lyons the System Disk 3.2 release notes and Jim Mensch's article in Dec
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88 Call-
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AFA Gary J Coming soon - to a shareware board near you... Dave Lyon's "Nifty
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Tunes"!
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JSchober ROTFL Gary!
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Dave Lyons A.P.P.L.E., I think it's all there.
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AFL Dyfet !
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DaviesDoug yah
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Lombar --all done in C#
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AFL Jim GA Dyfet
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AFL Marty Loony Tunes?
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFL Dyfet I was swamped in flashes...I just wanted to add that if anyone
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would like
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AFL Dyfet further info on HDS products, feel free to leave me a mail message
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with your
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AFL Dyfet address and I will see the person I have that does HDS mailings
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now gets it...
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AFL Dyfet (done with commercial)
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JSchober "And now... Purina Cat Chow."
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AFL Marty Tim!!
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AFL TimB Marty!!
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JSchober (Howdy, Tim!)
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AFL Jim Hi Tim
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AFL Jim Tim, I was about to mention your conference this week, but I'll
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let you do it.
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AFL Jim GA Tim
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AFL TimB OK!
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DwightW1 ?
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AFA Gary J Q = Tim, Dwight
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Matt DTS (How con-VEEEE-nient)
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AFL TimB Tomorrow at the Apple // Music and Sound Forum at 10pm EST we'll
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be ...
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AFL TimB introducing Matt Denman, Apple Sound Tool programmer
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extraordinaire!....
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AFL TimB We'll also be giving away THREE HOURS of AppleLink - PE time to
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the person...
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Dave Lyons Uh oh, we're in treble now....
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AFL TimB who asks (in my opinion) the best question.
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JSchober ::bad pun alert, Dave Lyons!::
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Matt DTS (I'm gonna thrash that boy when he gets here...)
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AFL TimB So be there or be a four equal sized object!
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AFL Marty Joe... don't harass the staff :)
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AFA Gary J :)
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Dave Lyons Take "note" of the prize...don't let anybody "beat" you to
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it....
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AFL TimB (Why's that Mr Matt?)
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Matt DTS (not Matt, Dave!)
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AFL TimB (I'm a poet too)
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AFL Jim OK GA with your question Dwight
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JSchober Ugh... get Dave OUT of here! ::groan::
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DwightW1 dave, i want your 'nifty list' shareware program...and i plan to
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pay for...
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Dave Lyons And I'm going to fix the rest of your appliances to blow up on
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you.... :)
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AFL Jim (and hush up enveryone else)
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AFA Gary J Q = Dwight
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AFL TimB :X
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THE GIBBER Well....At least the Bass buns are out of the way ;)
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THE GIBBER oops puns
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DwightW1 it... so give me the cost and where to send for it please....I
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NEED IT!!
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AFL Jim Go Dave... a sale is made.
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AFL Marty This is your lucky day Dwight! :)
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AFA Gary J Q = Dwight ($Dave$)
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Dave Lyons Okay, my address is PO Box 287, North Liberty IA 52317, and Nifty
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List is
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AFL Dyfet (and another starving programmer gets supper tonight)
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Dave Lyons fifteen bucks. If you're in a hurry, download it from ADV or AUT,
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but you'll
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Dave Lyons get a disk in any case when I get your bucks.
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DwightW1 I have no doubt you have put much effort into the production of
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your .....
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AFL Jim or dollars as they're known outside of North Liberty...
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Dave Lyons (And if you already had Nifty List installed, you could do a
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screen dump now
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Dave Lyons instead of writing down that address. :-)
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFL Dyfet (Nifty List truelly is)
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DwightW1 program, so i will send for it prepaid AS ALL PEOPLE THAT WANT
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SHAREWARE
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DwightW1 thanks dave
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Matt DTS (if he already had Nifty List, he wouldn't need to see the address
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on-line)
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Dave Lyons (That's true, too.)
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AFA Gary J He'll have to change the address, now - to California
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Dave Lyons (Matt thinks Nifty List's user interface is the most user-friendly
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one in the
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Dave Lyons Whole World, by the way. :)
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JSchober hehehe
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AFL Marty ?
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DwightW1 let's hope that is not necessary to change addresses
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AFA Gary J Q = Marty
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AFL Jim GA Marty
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AFL Marty How much time will you be spending in the DTS jacuzzi, Dave? :)
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AFA Gary J Just assign a handle to your address, Dave.
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DaviesDoug and matt doesn't even like "bill and ted's excellent adventure"
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so...
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DaviesDoug he should know
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Matt DTS ("The testmonial was portrayed by actors and is not intended to
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imply a true endorsement.") :-)
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AFL Marty (the hour's up) :)
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Matt DTS DTS Jacuzzi? Where?
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JSchober That's true, anyone who would want to use NiftyList would probably
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be able to
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JSchober deref a handle...
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Matt DTS I keep asking for one and Rilla keeps saying "Maybe"...
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AFL Marty Rilla should learn to share.
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Matt DTS (we have a sink with a vortex under a hot water tap; does that
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count?)
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AFL Dyfet (does Dave now become Dave DTS?)
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Dave Lyons The jacuzi is where you throw the old GS batteries once they start
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leaking,
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Dave Lyons right?
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JSchober ugh...
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Matt DTS Sure. Then YOU go sit in it.
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Dave Lyons Beats me...I may keep my current screen name if that doesn't
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bother anybody
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AFL Marty only when occupied :)
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AFA Gary J That would certainly stir things up! :)
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JSchober Boy, those three'll make a team, alright. :-)
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Dave Lyons too terribly much....
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AFL Marty The Three Amigos?
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AFP Draco Dave - I'm afraid we might confuse you with a civilian.
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Dave Lyons (That way you don't even need to swirl or heat the water w/
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outside forces.)
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JSchober <=== going to die of pun attack in another few seconds... LOL
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Marty...
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Matt DTS Dave? Civil? It'll never happen.
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AFP Draco Joey - Pun stroke?
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Dave Lyons :)
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JSchober Righto, Kent. :) ::slump, dead::
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Matt DTS "And with a stroke of a pun, the mighty were felled."
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Matt DTS (I can just see AFL Jim shaking his head and mumbling "I'm almost
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out! Hee hee hee!")
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AFP Draco Wil will PUNish them PUNctiaully
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AFL Scott And now.. straight from the from... Nah....
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AFL Jim Well.... thanks for stopping in tonight and remember to stop into
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the auditori
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Dave Lyons The pun is mightier than the sored? or something....
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AFL Jim um next week when you'll get a change to talk to Tom Weishaar,
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|
some editors
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JSchober LOL.... no, Scott, don't try it... ;) oh my... these =are=
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deadly... :))
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Dave Lyons You could probably confuse me with a simple card trick
|
|
actually...no
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Dave Lyons civilians necessary.
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AFL Jim from Call-A.P.P.L.E. and Nibble.
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AFL Jim See you there!
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AFA Gary J ()()()()
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AFL TimB Moral: Never trust a developer from the mid-west!
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AFL Jim Good night everyone (I have to run)
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DwightW1 well, good-bye everybody, and again thanks dave
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