977 lines
44 KiB
Plaintext
977 lines
44 KiB
Plaintext
AppleLink
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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February 21, 1989 10:00 p.m. Eastern time
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Topic: Apple II Operating Systems
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Forum Leader: James Luther (Jump Long)
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AFA Gary J Tonight's topic is Operating Systems.
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DennisDoms (Operating Systems, I think)
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AFA Gary J Hi Dave
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DennisDoms It just seemed to be a good, friendly RT with some good info.
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Matt DTS I'm glad to hear it!
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Matt DTS Hi Dave, Doug, Everyone Else.
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Dave Lyons Howdy, all.
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Jump Long Hi all!
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HeckOfAGuy wehn do we start?
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AFA Gary J Hi Jump!
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Jump Long <- AFL Jim left his disk at work.
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AFA Gary J :)
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SEGlass Whats the topic tonight?
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HeckOfAGuy bye
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AFA Gary J Operating Systems.
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Matt DTS Jim left here right around an hour ago, like a good little soldier
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(OSs, Steve)
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SEGlass I guess I'll stick around. I might know a thing or two.
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Matt DTS I've heard that.
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Jump Long I wonder how many times I'll have to tell who I am tonight...
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SEGlass Thats the one about Dorthy and a wizzard, right?
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AFA Gary J heheh...
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AFA Gary J Jim IS here!
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Jump Long <- AFL Jim (really!)
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SEGlass where?
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Jump Long Anyway... Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight's
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topic is AppleII
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Jump Long Operating Systems.
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Jump Long I guess we'll start off with no protocol until things get going.
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Jump Long (here Steve)
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SEGlass Now I see.
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Jump Long The floor is open...
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AFA Gary J I've got one, (if nobody else does...)
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Jump Long Hi Guy
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AFA Parik why does GS/OS replace the control panel vector?
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Jump Long GA Gary
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Guy Rice Hello JML.
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AFA Parik (bugs in the ROM version, etc)
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AFA Gary J What is it about the GetFileInfo call that could cause a "Block
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number out of
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Dave Lyons A better question is DOES GS/OS replace the control panel vector,
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I think.
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AFA Gary J range error" in GS/OS?
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Jump Long <- Jim M Luther
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Guy Rice I'm sure it does...
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AFA Parik it does, I've got two GSs, one w/ ProDOS 8 and one w/ GSOS and one
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points to
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Dave Lyons Gary, it reads the bitmap and finds that there's a free block past
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the end
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Dave Lyons of the volume!
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AFA Parik routines in bank $14 and one points to routines in $FE. I
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disassembled them
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SEGlass !
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Guy Rice GS/OS replaces it I think so that you can't get in while the Busy
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flag is set.
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Dave Lyons (I tried it a little bit ago & posted a msg in your folder in
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ADV:OS.)
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AFA Parik both and they seem to be the same except for a few minor
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differences.
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AFA Gary J Yes, but doesn't ProDos 8 read the bit map as well?
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AFA Gary J Ok, Thanks Dave!
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Dave Lyons Parik, do you have SoftSwitch installed?
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AFA Parik nope
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SEGlass Wow, this all went by too fast!!!!
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AFA Parik (Hi Scott)
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Jump Long Maybe we better go to protocol...
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ScottG25 (Hi Everyone)
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Jump Long Q= Parik, Gary
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SEGlass Please
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik
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Dave Lyons !
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AFA Parik :)
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Jump Long GA Steve
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AFA Parik Question again: GS/OS replaces the Control Panel vector ($E1/0048)
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with its
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Steve, Dave)
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AFA Parik own routine in bank $14. Is there some bug in the ROM version
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which is
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AFA Parik located at bank $FE?
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SEGlass GSOS does not replace the vector.
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Guy Rice It does.
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SEGlass The event manager does replace the vector.
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SEGlass It always has replaced since the very first ROM.
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SEGlass It has nothing to do with the OS.
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AFA Parik ok, thanks.
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AFA Parik (any particular reason why? :)
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SEGlass The idea was that the CDA request should be an event, not always
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an
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Dave Lyons Well, I just checked (event mgr off), and there is indeed a
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RAM-based version
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Guy Rice Right.
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SEGlass interrupt.
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SEGlass That way an event based program could control whats going on
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Dave Lyons installed there (I hadn't noticed before). It's a patch on the
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System Disk,
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SEGlass a little better. GA.
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Dave Lyons but it isn't actually part of GS/OS. (Just TOOL.SETUP / TS2.)
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Guy Rice In other words, System 4.0 replaces it.
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Guy Rice ?
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dave)
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Dave Lyons Correct.
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dave), Guy
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AFA Parik GA
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Dave Lyons I haven't compared the ROM version w/ the RAM version, but
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Jump Long Guy, GA
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Guy Rice Ooops - sorry, that was a mistake... ga
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Dave Lyons I remember there were some (relatively harmless, but ugly?) bugs
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in the ROM.
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Jump Long ooops
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Dave Lyons (Ken Kashmarek rewrote the thing as SOFTSWITCH.INIT or something,
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too.)
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Dave Lyons (ga)
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Jump Long Guy, was that a question or not at question?
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Guy Rice Nope. sorry.
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AFA Parik They're both almost the same BTW. Is it safe to put a $00 in
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$E01D67 to
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Jump Long OK, Gary, do you want to repeat your question or did you get
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enough of an
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Jump Long answer?
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AFA Parik disable the control panel? This fools it into believing its being
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re-entrant.
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AFA Parik re-entrant = re-entered.
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AFA Gary J I think Dave answered my question. He was nice enough to test my
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situation.
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SEGlass !
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Jump Long GA Steve
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AFA Gary J I was getting a "block out of range" error on my hard drive when
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doing a
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AFA Gary J GetFileInfo call on the volume.
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SEGlass I think I just remembered why we patched it.
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AFA Gary J GA
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SEGlass There was a problem if you went into the CDAs and an NDA was the
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SEGlass front window. The event manager would pass all keystrokes to
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SEGlass the NDA even though it was not on the part of the screen you could
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see.
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SEGlass We fixed it by telling the system that the CDA menu was active and
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not allowing
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SEGlass keystroke events to passed on to NDAs at this time. Leaving the
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CDAs
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SEGlass activated the NDAs again.
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SEGlass GA
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Dave Lyons !
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Jump Long GA Dave
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AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dave)
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Dave Lyons I don't understand...did it pass the keystrokes _only_ to the NDA,
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or would
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Dave Lyons they also get seen by a CDA doing ReadChar calls? (I've never had
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trouble
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Dave Lyons typing in Nifty List with NDAs open, on any version of the System
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Disk.)
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Dave Lyons (ga)
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SEGlass The way GetNextEvent works is that before the event is returned to
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the
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SEGlass calling routine, SystemEvent is called. SystemEvent looks at the
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SEGlass top window. If it is a system window, then it sees if that system
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window
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SEGlass wants the kind of event that is being looked at. If it does want
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the
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AFA Gary J Q = Dave (Steve)
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SEGlass event, then it passes it on the the NDA and the event manager
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returns
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SEGlass a null event. If the NDA does not want that kind of event, the
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event
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SEGlass manager returns it. An NDA that does not accept keystrokes would
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not
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SEGlass have caused a problem.
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Dave Lyons Well...I'm still baffled, then. I'm pretty sure I have a lot of
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NDAs that have
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SEGlass Does that help? GA.
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Dave Lyons -1 (all events) for their event masks, even though they don't
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actually do
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Dave Lyons anything with keyDown events if they get them. I'll look into it
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some more.
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Dave Lyons (done)
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Jump Long For those that just wandered in, I'm AFL Jim (really!)
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Matt DTS He is not! I'M AFL JIM!
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Guy Rice Heheh...
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AFA Gary J Sure you are.. :) And I'M Steve Wozniak!
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JSchober :)
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SEGlass I thought you were John Scully
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Jump Long haha, Matt - You could be if you went a couple of cubes over!
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Jump Long (and knew the secret code :)
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Jump Long Anyway... back to OSs
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SEGlass !
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JSchober (did I miss anyone's FN?? %)
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Coach101 ?
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Jump Long GA Steve
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AFA Gary J Q = (Steve), Coach
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SEGlass Just an interesting point to note: we have not yet been talking
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about
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SEGlass anything relating to an OS on the GS.
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SEGlass This desk manager stuff and event manager stuff is all independent
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of
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Jump Long Gary was...
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AFA Gary J :)
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SEGlass the OS. The patch may have first appeared on the 4.0 disk which
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SEGlass is so well noted for GS/OS, but many people have trouble
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distinguishing where
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SEGlass the OS starts and stops. Not that I'm complaining, the same
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problem happens
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SEGlass inside Apple for all our product lines too. GA.
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Dave Lyons [No problem: The OS starts at $E100A8 and B0. :) ]
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AE JohnS :-)
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach
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Jump Long GA Coach
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Coach101 With regard to disk caching,
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Coach101 When I set the size with the Apple Nda, when is that emory
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actually
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Coach101 used, what can cause a release of that memory, and what happens
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if
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Coach101 the amount of memory is not available at the time that GsOs goes
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Coach101 to do a Cache operation (presuming that the memory is not a hard
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Coach101 set aside from the time the value is set in the Nda) GA
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Jump Long I think that was covered in the message boards several months
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ago...
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Dave Lyons !
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Matt DTS ! (Since no one else is)
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Dave Lyons (ga Matt)
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Jump Long GA Dave
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Matt DTS (dave, quit that)
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Dave, Matt)
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SEGlass I knew Dave and Matt could answer!
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AFA Gary J :)
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Jump Long Let's all answer...
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Matt DTS The cache size set by the Disk Cache NDA is the maximum size that
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the cache may grow to.
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Matt OR Dave..both at the same time)
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Jump Long If the memory isn't available, GS/OS won't get it.
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Matt DTS It is not all allocated when you set the cache size (which is done
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through a mostly-undocumented...
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Matt DTS ResetCache call), but is allocated as drivers and FSTs request
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that blocks be cached.
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Dave Lyons ! --> ?
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Matt DTS It is only released when a driver/FST asks a particular cached
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block to be flushed from the...
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Matt DTS ...cache or a ResetCache call is allocated. (GA, Dave)
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Dave Lyons I would have got that mostly wrong, BTW. Anyway, now I have a
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question
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Dave Lyons instead: What is the difference between a 0K and a 16K cache
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setting? I read
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Dave Lyons that the cache is always at least 16K. Does that mean it's
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setting+16K, or
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Dave Lyons min(16K,setting) ?
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SEGlass 16K or is this a trick question
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Dave Lyons (I mean the "maximum cache size", of course.)
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SEGlass !
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach & Dave (Matt)
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Matt DTS The OS has an internal cache that FSTs may use that is at least
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16K, regardless of the NDA setting.
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Jump Long GA Steve
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Jump Long and Matt
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Dave Lyons Okay, so the effective maximum is 16K more than the setting. Got
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it.
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SEGlass The settings above 0 are in addition to what the OS will do
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anyway.
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Matt DTS (Steve will correct me if I'm wrong.)
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SEGlass There are other times that the cache is flushed.
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach & Dave (Steve & Matt)
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SEGlass Most specifically, when the disk from which the blocks came from
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is
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Matt DTS That's true. I forgot about that.
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SEGlass ejected.
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SEGlass Caching also works differently depending on whether or not
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SEGlass sessions is on or off.
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SEGlass I'm not sure of the details, but generally, many more blocks are
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cached
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Dave Lyons ?
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SEGlass if sessions is on. Also, applications can get involved in
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caching, but again
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SEGlass I don't know the details. GA.
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Dave
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Jump Long Coach, is this enough or do you have a follow-up question?
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Matt DTS !
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Matt DTS ! = "Do you want more details or is that enough?"
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Jump Long GA Matt, give us details.
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Coach101 A ? and !
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Matt DTS I'll let Coach go first since he has the floor. GA.
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Jump Long OK, GA Coach
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Coach101 first the comment. Since re-booting a II-Gs is an infrequent
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Coach101 happening, and I never eject my hard-disk (intentionally), it
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Coach101 is reasonable that I could accumulate some long unused cache
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Coach101 blocks from an application that ran an hour ago. Now I come
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Coach101 along and have a memory hungy application that does not have
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Coach101 much need for disk cacheing. Is there a provision for an
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application
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Coach101 to cause the cache to be flushed? Now I forgot the second ? Ga
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SEGlass !
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Jump Long GA Matt or Steve
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Matt/Steve), Dave
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Matt DTS (GA Steve - researching)
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SEGlass Unless an application does something special, there are not
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SEGlass many blocks that the OS will cache by itself. The exception to
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this
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Dan Burton !
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SEGlass is the sessions call which causes the cache to be flushed when
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Matt DTS !
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SEGlass sessions are turned off. But there is still the potential for
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problems. The
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Steve/Matt, Dan), Dave
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SEGlass cache is not purgable. GA
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Coach101 So,
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Dan Burton It would be nice to be able to turn cache off or bea able to fulsh
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it for us
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Jump Long Matt, GA
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Coach101 BeginSession followed by EndSession will effectively reduce the
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Dan Burton Crazy people that use 1 CMS drive on 2 IIGSs
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Coach101 current cache to its smallest size (16k) ?
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Dave Lyons !
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Matt DTS (everyone else GA - I just wanted to stick my foot in the door)
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Dave Lyons Dan, write your own device driver that never caches any blocks on
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your drive.
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Dan Burton I thought about it.
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SEGlass I don't know if the session calls will flush any more than what is
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collected
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SEGlass during the time sessions is on. An easy FlushAll is a good idea.
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I don't
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SEGlass know if it is easy to do, but Matt is researching... Any news
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matt?
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Steve), Dave
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SEGlass GA
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Matt DTS Hold on - let me find the latest question...
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AFA Gary J (he must be multi-tasking again :)
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Coach101 Applicatiion level Flush All --- I think?
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Jump Long Steve, are cache blocks purgable at any level by the Memory
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Manager?
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Matt DTS Ok. First, ResetCache will flush the cache. We didn't document
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this call in Volume 1 mostly...
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Matt DTS ...of time constraints. We'll try to get it in the Final (A-W)
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manual, and probably a tech note too.
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Jump Long (never mind)
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Dave Lyons (It's in NLIST.DATA, tho, I think.)
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Matt DTS Second - a Session in progress effectively directs all blocks that
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are written as cached NOT to be...
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Matt DTS ...written to disk as well, until an EndSession is encountered.
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Since the ProDOS FST automatically...
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AFA Gary J Q - Coach (Matt/Steve), Dave
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Dave Lyons !
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Matt DTS ...caches (or requests caching for) "system blocks" (directories,
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bit-maps, etc.), this has the effect
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AFA Gary J Q + (Dave)
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Matt DTS ...of writing just the data blocks to disk immediately, and not
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writing all the directory...
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Matt DTS ...updates until the end of the session. This keeps the drive
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head from moving around so much...
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Matt DTS ...and increases speed. The whole scheme fails if the application
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asks that all the files it's...
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Matt/Steve, Dave), Dave
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Matt DTS ...reading/writing be cached as well, since those will kick out
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all the system blocks in the cache...
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Matt DTS ...unless the cache is big enough to hold EVERYTHING, and things
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will be around normal speed.
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Matt DTS For more information on this, I strongly recommend (since I was
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strongly suggested to write it)...
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Matt DTS ...GS/OS TN #3, "Pointers on Caching", which should be right here
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in the ADV library. GA. (Whew!)
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AFA Gary J Yes, it is in the library.
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Coach101 I read Tn 43. It did an outstanding job of discussing and
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Jump Long I might note that Gary Little's new book has the ResetCache call
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documented in
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Jump Long it.
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Coach101 explaing when to use cacheing. It did not address the items
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that
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AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Dave), Dave
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Coach101 have come forth in this discussion. Thanks for all the
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information.
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Coach101 That finishes my questions ... Ga....
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Dave Lyons Does ResetCache flush the internal 16K, too?
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Jump Long Dave GA
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Dave Lyons :)
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Dave Lyons (No big deal--just wondering if Doug is going to fry his drive
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trying to use
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Dave Lyons it.)
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Jump Long ResetCache resizes the cache to the battery RAM setting.
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Dave Lyons Mmmm. So it doesn't necessarily remove all blocks from the cache,
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right?
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Jump Long I would _guess_ that flushes it in the process (I don't know).
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ScottG25 ?
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Dave Lyons Okay, a more interesting pair of questions: Does the Finder use
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Sessions? and
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AFA Gary J Q = (Dave), Dave, Scott
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Dave Lyons is the cache limited by its set size even during a session?
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SEGlass Yes and I thing no.
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DaviesDoug !
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SEGlass thing should be think
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Jump Long GA Doug
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DaviesDoug Think I've seen a couple of SESSION calls in FINDER (kludging
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through it...
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DaviesDoug one day)
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AFA Gary J Q = Dave (Doug), Scott
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Dave Lyons Okay, good.
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Dave Lyons Well, let me throw out 2 more things quickly:
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Dave Lyons Can generated drivers generate disk-switched events, or whatever
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the right
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Dave Lyons terminology is? For example, what about a Laser 3.5 drive on a
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UDC card or
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Dave Lyons something? (Somebody on Info-Apple was complaining that GS/OS
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would prompt
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Dave Lyons for a disk & never notice that he switched disks.)
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Matt DTS Stupid Macintosh crashes all the **** time...
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Matt DTS ...<grumble grumble grumble>
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SEGlass Use a real system!
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Jump Long Turn off intermail, Matt ;)
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Dave Lyons Nobody tackling that one?
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Matt DTS What
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Matt DTS ('s the question?)
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Jump Long Repeat it, Dave
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Dave Lyons The ? was can a generated device driver come up with disk-switched
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events, like
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AFA Gary J Q = Dave (??), Scott
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Dave Lyons for a 3rd-party 3.5" drive on a 3rd-party interface card. A user
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was
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Dave Lyons complaining that GS/OS never noticed he switched disks & kept
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prompting for
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Dave Lyons the one he had already inserted.
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Jump Long on what drive and card, Dave? (you'll like this Matt)
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Matt DTS A generated driver never generates disk-switched EVENTS, to the
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best of my knowledge. However...
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Guy Rice Heheh!
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Dave Lyons I think it was a Laser 3.5 drive on a UDC card, but that might be
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wrong--I can'
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Dave Lyons t check the msg right now.
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AFA Gary J Q = Dave (Matt), Scott
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SEGlass Did he crash again?
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Matt DTS ...a generated Extended SmartPort driver can return disk-switched
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errors when they occur. GA.
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JSchober ...let me try to hunt down Dave's message on info-apple here...
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hang on...
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Dave Lyons While Joe's doing that, I want to take a quick poll: How many
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people here
|
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Dave Lyons are reasonably sure they've had a volume damaged because a buggy
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3rd-party
|
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Dave Lyons utility accidentally overwrote part of GS/OS's cache? I have.
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(Some Apple
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Dave Lyons people already know how I feel about this.)
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JSchober (Dave: got an approximate date-posted on that message?)
|
|
Dave Lyons (Yeah, approximately yesterday or today, I think.)
|
|
JSchober Ok...
|
|
AFA Gary J Q = Dave, Scott
|
|
Matt DTS {S About Applelink}
|
|
Coach101 Getting at checksumming, Dave?
|
|
Dave Lyons Yes, Coach, I'd like to see the OS do some checking when reading
|
|
from the
|
|
Dave Lyons cache to make sure it hasn't been tromped over.
|
|
SEGlass If you run something that trashes random memory, check summing the
|
|
cache
|
|
Coach101 I see the problem Dave, but that little old 65816 is very
|
|
SEGlass is not going to make it safe to run that application.
|
|
Coach101 overworked. But, it would protect the inexperienced appliance
|
|
Guy Rice It will prevent that application from destroying the disk,
|
|
though...
|
|
Dave Lyons Right, I don't mean that checksumming would make me feel safe
|
|
using a buggy
|
|
Jump Long It could be tromping on the OS in many other places.
|
|
Dave Lyons application--only that it would point out the problem in some
|
|
cases! I'd want
|
|
Coach101 user. I would probably turn it off and take my chances with
|
|
DaviesDoug Welcome back matt!!!!!!!!!
|
|
DaviesDoug hehe
|
|
AFA Gary J Q = Dave, Scott
|
|
Dave Lyons it to cause a fatal error giving the address of the trashed block,
|
|
and there'd
|
|
Coach101 _better_ software. Or...... Hardware memoryp protect!!!
|
|
Dave Lyons be some chance of identifying the culprit from the data it stored
|
|
over the
|
|
Dave Lyons cache.
|
|
SEGlass The only time that cached memory is written is when the
|
|
JSchober (stupid ALINK software... BUFFER FULL on the catalog...
|
|
sorry...)
|
|
SEGlass application uses the sessions call.
|
|
Matt DTS Not exactly, Steve.
|
|
Dave Lyons No, Steve: Here's what happened to me. Something overwrote the
|
|
last 1/4 of
|
|
AFA Gary J Careful, Joe. BillP is here :)
|
|
Coach101 WRITE-THROUGH I DEARLY HOP!!!!!!
|
|
Dave Lyons the cached image of the first block of my *:system directory.
|
|
Some change
|
|
SEGlass The one exception is the bitmap and directory blocks.
|
|
BillP :X
|
|
AFA Gary J Q = Dave, Scott
|
|
JSchober (oops! uhhh... HIII, Bill.... %)
|
|
Dave Lyons was made to some file in that dir block (file added or deleted, or
|
|
locked or
|
|
Guy Rice That's some exception!
|
|
Dave Lyons unlocked or whatever), and the damaged block was read from the
|
|
cache, changed,
|
|
Dave Lyons and re-written. Presto! Lots of warnings to move the data to
|
|
another disk.
|
|
Dave Lyons Ick. I realize checksumming would decrease performance, but not
|
|
all _that_
|
|
Dave Lyons much. It could be limited to system blocks if that would help,
|
|
and it could
|
|
Dave Lyons be a configurable option (which I would leave ON most of the time,
|
|
but which
|
|
Dave Lyons could default to OFF for people not developing software).
|
|
Matt DTS On the other hand, protecting developers makes it much easier for
|
|
them to accidentally....
|
|
SEGlass Could be an interesting Programmer preference.
|
|
Matt DTS ...release buggy software (bugs they didn't find because they had
|
|
checksumming on).
|
|
AFA Gary J Q = Dave (Matt/Steve), Scott
|
|
Dave Lyons Matt, WHAT? How could that happen?
|
|
Dave Lyons They would FIND bugs that they otherwise would miss. A checksum
|
|
failure, in
|
|
Dave Lyons my plan, would cause a fatal error, not a re-read from disk.
|
|
SEGlass Not the way I'd put such a feature in. Disks would not get
|
|
trashed but
|
|
Matt DTS It couldn't if your suggestion of a fatal error for bad checksum
|
|
was taken. That's the first I've...
|
|
Matt DTS ...heard of it.
|
|
SEGlass the App would not keep running!
|
|
Dave Lyons Well, maybe I didn't make my vision clear enough when I mentioned
|
|
it before,
|
|
SEGlass There are things that can be done now to simulate something like
|
|
this.
|
|
AFA Gary J Q = Dave (Matt/Steve), Scott
|
|
Dave Lyons but that's what I've wanted all along--something to make SURE you
|
|
notice when
|
|
Dave Lyons something bad happens.
|
|
SEGlass One could write a heart beat task that checksummed blocks that it
|
|
owns
|
|
SEGlass and put up messages when the mem is trashed. It would use memory
|
|
but it
|
|
SEGlass would be a good test. You could even link it into the Tool
|
|
Dispatch vector
|
|
SEGlass so it would run more often. (It would slow things down a lot so
|
|
you'd
|
|
SEGlass probably want to make it part of a CDA so you could turn it on
|
|
and
|
|
SEGlass off).
|
|
SEGlass GA
|
|
Dave Lyons Yes, that's a good idea. I may do something like that sometime.
|
|
But Murphy's
|
|
Dave Lyons Law says that the GS/OS cache is going to get trashed, and the
|
|
blocks my
|
|
Jump Long How would you get it to take care of the Cache blocks?
|
|
Dave Lyons heartbeat routine checks are not. :)
|
|
AFA Gary J Q = Dave (Matt/Steve), Scott
|
|
Dave Lyons After my latest debugging experience last night, I'm also
|
|
considering something
|
|
Dave Lyons to check the current QD port for validity on all appropriate
|
|
calls. (I found
|
|
Jump Long Would it cause an check of some kind everytime the cache blocks
|
|
changed?
|
|
Dave Lyons a formerly-mysterious Finder problem.)
|
|
SEGlass Necessity is the mother of invention.
|
|
Matt DTS (GA)
|
|
SEGlass Jim, the heartbeat task would only check its own memory, hoping
|
|
that if
|
|
SEGlass an application is going to trash something, it will trash the
|
|
blocks being
|
|
SEGlass checked. It is not bullet proof, but very little is. It would
|
|
just be
|
|
AFA Gary J Q = Dave (Jim - Matt/Steve), Scott
|
|
SEGlass a tool to help find problems earlier.
|
|
SEGlass GA
|
|
Jump Long OK
|
|
Dave Lyons (done)
|
|
Jump Long Scott, GA
|
|
ScottG25 What does GS/OS Error 54 mean besides out of memory... Which
|
|
memory, main?
|
|
Dave Lyons What led to that error, again, Scott/
|
|
Dave Lyons ?
|
|
DaviesDoug !
|
|
Matt DTS It quite often means that you've used a length byte instead of a
|
|
word on a class one call.
|
|
Dave Lyons (That's just a question mark, not a question.)
|
|
DaviesDoug main? a thought all memory was created equal
|
|
DaviesDoug matt, protocal!
|
|
ScottG25 An _OpenGS call....
|
|
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Doug, Dave, Matt)
|
|
Dave Lyons (By _OpenGS do you mean call number $2010?)
|
|
ScottG25 Plenty of memory in the machine...
|
|
SEGlass Bye all.
|
|
JSchober CUL Steve.
|
|
Matt DTS G'night Steve.
|
|
Dave Lyons Bye, Steve.
|
|
Jump Long By Steve
|
|
ScottG25 Yep, Dave...
|
|
BillP Good to see you online Steve!
|
|
Matt DTS Scott, are you sure you have a length word on the pathname string
|
|
in the parameter block?
|
|
BillP they always leave before I can type :(
|
|
ScottG25 I can't say 100% sure, Matt, but if I substitute a P16 Open and
|
|
change the
|
|
ScottG25 param block it works... I will have to be 100 sure...
|
|
Dave Lyons Example: ABC = $03 $00 $41 $42 $43. BTW, it should be
|
|
_OdysseyII.
|
|
ScottG25 though.
|
|
Matt DTS What error $54 means is that GS/OS tried to allocate some memory
|
|
and couldn't get it.
|
|
Dave Lyons By "change the parm block" what do you mean exactly? Are you also
|
|
changing
|
|
ScottG25 100=100% sure.
|
|
Dave Lyons the string?
|
|
Matt DTS However, this doesn't always occur exactly like you might think it
|
|
would.
|
|
Matt DTS GS/OS allocates all of it's own memory that it asks for at
|
|
run-time in discrete 8K blocks.
|
|
ScottG25 Nope... Same string.... just substituting what a P16 open wants...
|
|
and comment-
|
|
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Doug, Matt/Dave)
|
|
ScottG25 ing out the GSOS stuff..
|
|
Matt DTS Are you changing the string to have a length WORD for GS/OS
|
|
instead of a length BYTE for P16?
|
|
Dave Lyons You have a problem, then.
|
|
DaviesDoug .done.
|
|
ScottG25 No, Matt... should I?
|
|
Matt DTS (don't mean to repeat myself, but I'm a mite confused)
|
|
JSchober (just looked at the GS/OS Open in NList... Christ, what IS all
|
|
that?!)
|
|
Dave Lyons P16 "ABC" = $03 $41 $42 $43, but GS/OS (class 1 string) "ABC" =
|
|
$03 $00 $41 $42
|
|
Dave Lyons $43.
|
|
Matt DTS Yes! That's the cause of the error.
|
|
ScottG25 Aha! thanks!:))
|
|
Matt DTS GS/OS is taking the first word of your string and trying to
|
|
allocate memory to process it.
|
|
Dave Lyons That's the parameters, Joe! Luckily, only 2 of them are required
|
|
(that's what
|
|
Dave Lyons the "2-15" means at the beginning).
|
|
AFA Gary J Q = Scott
|
|
Matt DTS If the first character of the pathname has ASCII value greater
|
|
than $20, GS/OS will think the...
|
|
Matt DTS ....pathname is longer than 8K, and will be unable to allocate
|
|
memory to process it. Error $54.
|
|
JSchober Yeah, I know THAT! :) But ... "+GET_FILE_INFO"... oh oh OH!
|
|
<geez, I'm
|
|
ScottG25 SF GetFile returns a word instead of a byte?
|
|
Matt DTS (and it MUST have ASCII greater than $20, you know.)
|
|
JSchober awake... that's a nice touch! Gotta get myself that GS/OS Tech
|
|
Ref RRSN...>
|
|
ScottG25 in the pathname?
|
|
Dave Lyons Yeah, +GET_FILE_INFO means all the parameters GET_FILE_INFO
|
|
returns. Too
|
|
Dave Lyons many to list there.
|
|
Matt DTS SFGetFile returns length byte. Standard File returns all Class
|
|
Zero structures.
|
|
JSchober Yeah, that just hit me. Like I said, pretty nifty addition... :)
|
|
So what's
|
|
JSchober "acc"?
|
|
ScottG25 Thanks! Guys!
|
|
Matt DTS If this out-of-memory problem happens at a particularly bad time,
|
|
GS/OS will have a...
|
|
Dave Lyons Acc=access, I think. It lets you specify what you're going to do
|
|
with the
|
|
Matt DTS ...Fatal System Error (GS/OS dialog shows up, the error number is
|
|
2).
|
|
Dave Lyons file. If you're just going to Read from it, say so with the
|
|
Access parameter,
|
|
Matt DTS HINT HINT HINT HINT HINT HINT HINT
|
|
Dave Lyons and it will have a nice effect on what other users can do with the
|
|
same file
|
|
Dave Lyons in a shared environment.
|
|
Matt DTS What Dave just said.
|
|
JSchober OIC... hmmm! Now I REALLY gotta get the Ref -- that sounds
|
|
terrific...
|
|
Matt DTS ProDOS, as a file system, is pretty wimpy about access privileges.
|
|
Other file systems (and maybe...
|
|
Matt DTS therefore future FSTs) aren't. Programmers need to be able to
|
|
handle error $4E (access error) in a...
|
|
Matt DTS ...better way than trying to set the access bits to something they
|
|
can work with. In some file...
|
|
Matt DTS ....systems, you will be unable to set the access to a different
|
|
value. So get used to it.
|
|
Matt DTS Also...
|
|
Matt DTS ...what Dave says about requesting access is a very good strategy.
|
|
If you are in a file system...
|
|
Matt DTS ....where you have permission only to do certain things (like
|
|
read, not write), then if you try...
|
|
Matt DTS ....to write to the file, you'll get an error $4E. If you OPEN
|
|
the file with request_access = $00...
|
|
Matt DTS ....you'll have to be able to handle $4E on every system call. If
|
|
you OPEN with request_access = ...
|
|
Matt DTS ...just what you need (read and write but not rename, if that's
|
|
what you're going to do)...
|
|
Matt DTS ....you'll get an error $4E on the OPEN if something's not going
|
|
to work. Handle it one...
|
|
Matt DTS ...place instead of twenty or thirty. Good idea.
|
|
Matt DTS (GA)
|
|
JSchober Hmm. NICE, indeed!! :) Thanks for the info. Gotta run, folks
|
|
-- thanks for
|
|
JSchober the chat. See yuz...
|
|
Coach101 ?, $0000 on Acc promotes to all bits stored in the files
|
|
Matt DTS (lots of typing for me tonight)
|
|
Coach101 directory entry as opposed to what is currently possible?
|
|
Matt DTS Yes, that's true, Coach...
|
|
Matt DTS ...but an FST has no way to tell you what access you really GOT,
|
|
where by asking specifically...
|
|
Matt DTS ...it can return error $4E if you asked for something you can't
|
|
do.
|
|
Coach101 Huh?, somebody knows that I can not get Write at the present
|
|
Coach101 time, that person would return a $4E (if the FST does not know)?
|
|
Matt DTS If I OPEN a file that I have only read and rename access to, but I
|
|
ask with request_access = 0...
|
|
Matt DTS ...the FST has no way to tell me "Hey, you got read and rename but
|
|
that's it!". If I try to WRITE...
|
|
Matt DTS ...or anything else I don't have permission for, I'll get error
|
|
$4E. HOWEVER...
|
|
DaviesDoug !
|
|
Jump Long You can always do a GetFileInfo before opening a file to see that
|
|
access.
|
|
DaviesDoug the open call doesn't give you the error?
|
|
Matt DTS ...if I OPEN with request_access = read+write, and all I have is
|
|
read+rename, the FST will return...
|
|
Coach101 Ok, finally it penetrates the gray material...
|
|
ScottG25 (night!)
|
|
Guy Rice :)
|
|
Matt DTS ...error $4E on the OPEN call, instead of when you try to WRITE
|
|
when you don't have access to.
|
|
Matt DTS Doug: No. The FST doesn't know what you're going to try to do;
|
|
it can't return an error just...
|
|
DaviesDoug answered my question
|
|
Matt DTS ...because you have less than full access. You just get an OPEN
|
|
file with permission to do...
|
|
Matt DTS ...whatever you can. (Sorry, I was already typing, and I don't
|
|
think I can stop now!)
|
|
Guy Rice ::watches Matt's fingers sizzle::
|
|
AFA Gary J <fast fingers Matt...>
|
|
Matt DTS Quick! Get me to a piano!
|
|
Guy Rice hehe!
|
|
Coach101 Matt, in a shared file environment, can one _opener_ lock
|
|
Matt DTS Geez...I've been at work for nearly 12 hours now...
|
|
Coach101 other _opener_'s by type of open request?
|
|
DaviesDoug did matt mention he was at work?
|
|
Dan Burton We do that all the time here Matt
|
|
Matt DTS Be quiet, Doug. <mutual admiration society>
|
|
Matt DTS Coach: What??
|
|
Coach101 Matt.... Work????? Whats Ripleys address??
|
|
Matt DTS I'll pretend I didn't read that.
|
|
Coach101 In a shared file environment, can one _opener_ specify access
|
|
Coach101 permissions for future _opener_s (as in till the original _opener_
|
|
|
|
Dan Burton If you were at HOME you wouldn't need to answer the hard
|
|
questions
|
|
Coach101 closes the file) as a function of the next _opener_'s access
|
|
modes?
|
|
Matt DTS Can't speak for all shared systems. I can speak for AppleShare as
|
|
a model, though it doesn't...
|
|
Matt DTS ...run under GS/OS (just P16) at this time.
|
|
Matt DTS Under AppleShare, the *owner* of the file (the person who created
|
|
it) has the right to determine
|
|
Matt DTS who has what privilges to the file or folder. The three privilege
|
|
levels are...
|
|
Matt DTS See Folders, See Files, Make Changes. (Hold on just a second
|
|
here...)
|
|
Dan Burton Does AppleShare allow you to set defaults for privilges?
|
|
Matt DTS Those privileges can be granted or denied for "everyone", "owner",
|
|
or "group" (a list of people put
|
|
Dan Burton I get tired of having to change them every time I create a new
|
|
folder.
|
|
Matt DTS put together by the server administrator). So I could make a
|
|
folder that I, the owner...
|
|
Matt DTS ....could have all privileges to, but set "make changes" only for
|
|
everyone else.
|
|
Guy Rice (Shades of Unix... :)
|
|
Matt DTS Since they can make changes, they can put files in the folder, but
|
|
they can't see inside the folder.
|
|
Coach101 Wath your language
|
|
Matt DTS That makes it a "drop box". They can put files in it for me, but
|
|
no one but me can get to them.
|
|
TimH06 Dan, no there is no provision for default privileges. Although
|
|
it's not...
|
|
TimH06 impossible to do.
|
|
Coach101 Matt, what I was looking for was an ability at _open_ time to
|
|
lock
|
|
Dan Burton How do you do it?
|
|
Coach101 other users from the file (during a master file update for
|
|
Coach101 example).
|
|
TimH06 Dan, it would be something that we would have to add to the system
|
|
software.
|
|
Matt DTS In AppleShare, there's a facility to lock ranges of the file from
|
|
others. Also...
|
|
Matt DTS ...files opened for one person to WRITE to are closed to the rest
|
|
of the people on the server.
|
|
Matt DTS (in AppleShare at least)
|
|
Coach101 Which, going back about three pages or so, means that someone
|
|
Dave Lyons Tim, are you saying simply that any software that creates new
|
|
folders is free
|
|
Coach101 (maybe) should pass out the $4E to me at open time. Not read
|
|
time
|
|
Coach101 since the error is found at Open time.
|
|
Dave Lyons to set the access rights during what the user sees as a single
|
|
"create folder"
|
|
Dave Lyons operation?
|
|
TimH06 Dave, yes that's possible.
|
|
TimH06 Coach, if someone has opened the file on the server for write
|
|
access....
|
|
TimH06 you'll get the access error when you try to open it while he still
|
|
has it open.
|
|
TimH06 Huh?
|
|
TimH06 Does that make any sense to you?
|
|
Coach101 Ok, I thought it was said earlier tht the error would get
|
|
Coach101 to me when I tried the _not valid_ operation (i.e., the read).
|
|
DaviesDoug he said WRITE ACCESS
|
|
DaviesDoug in the open call
|
|
Matt DTS yes, that's true, Coach - OPENing a file that someone else has
|
|
open with WRITE ACCESS is invalid.
|
|
Matt DTS (in AppleShare.)
|
|
Coach101 (and interesting in GsOs?)
|
|
TimH06 Matt, if an Application opens a file for write access, can an NDA
|
|
open it
|
|
TimH06 again for read?
|
|
Coach101 Now if only ALPE did not barf everytime something happened on my
|
|
Matt DTS Not as far as I'm aware.
|
|
Coach101 II-Gs AppleLink connection.....
|
|
Coach101 Applelink === Appletalk
|
|
DaviesDoug turn appletalk off...I do
|
|
TimH06 Blasphmey! (spelling?)
|
|
Coach101 Na.... ALPE is from Apple... AppleTalk is from Apple.... They
|
|
Coach101 support their pure-Apple stuff.... They will fix it in the
|
|
end....
|
|
DaviesDoug yes THEY SHOULD
|
|
Matt DTS ALPE is more from Quantum than it is from Apple, but leave
|
|
complaints and they'll work on it.
|
|
TimH06 That was Blasphemey
|
|
TimH06 Opps, blaspheme.
|
|
DaviesDoug they never answer ours very well
|
|
DaviesDoug they think we're real idiots
|
|
DaviesDoug and try to tell us something that makes absolutely no sense or was
|
|
totally
|
|
DaviesDoug obvious
|
|
Coach101 Quote.... sort of.... AppleLink does not support networked
|
|
Dave Lyons Did anybody answ your question Tim? Yes, if a file is open for
|
|
writing, it
|
|
Coach101 computers.... Of course the fact that what blows ALPE up is when
|
|
Dave Lyons can still be opened again for reading, and any part that is not
|
|
actually
|
|
Dave Lyons range-locked can be read, too.
|
|
Coach101 my wife prints to a printer (I do nothing) seemed to be
|
|
Coach101 un-impressive to ALPE/Quantum/Apple (whoever actually answers
|
|
DaviesDoug I was talking about Quantum Matt
|
|
Coach101 the questions/complaints).
|
|
Matt DTS (Whew!)
|
|
DaviesDoug you guys are great
|
|
DaviesDoug when your at WORK
|
|
DaviesDoug not at HOME
|
|
Jump Long hehehe
|
|
DaviesDoug did I mention matt wasn't at HOME
|
|
Dan Burton downd Doug!
|
|
AFA Gary J Dave: Thanks for the help with my problem on the message
|
|
boards.
|
|
TimH06 Dave, what!? If someone opens a file for writting, I don't think
|
|
anybody else
|
|
DaviesDoug ruff ruff, growl....
|
|
TimH06 can open it at all.
|
|
TimH06 I'm talking ProDOS here.
|
|
DaviesDoug did I mention dan was listening to the Police?
|
|
Dave Lyons No problem, Gary.
|
|
Jump Long I'll bet Matt is wearing a hat right now...
|
|
Jump Long ...a blue one.
|
|
Dave Lyons Oops, I thought you were talking about GS/OS & AppleShare, Tim,
|
|
and I just
|
|
Dave Lyons learned that you wouldn't have asked that question if you were.
|
|
:)
|
|
Dave Lyons Under ProDOS: No, once a file is open, any other open will just
|
|
give you an
|
|
Matt DTS What? GS/OS and AppleShare don't work together! Is your head on
|
|
straight, Dave?
|
|
Dave Lyons already-open error. ProDOS can't tell the difference between an
|
|
application
|
|
Dave Lyons and a DA....
|
|
Dave Lyons I meant System Disk 3.2, Matt. Sorry.
|
|
Matt DTS If you opened it read-only first, though, you can open it
|
|
read-only again.
|
|
Jump Long Take one step back, Dave :)
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Matt DTS Oh. That makes more sense. (and say "Mr. Glass, May I?")
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Coach101 Or is that steps into the future...
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Dave Lyons Or the lower level AppleTalk protocols--whichever ones it is that
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let you
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Dave Lyons specify access rights when opening a shared file. I've never done
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it, only
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Dave Lyons read about it.
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Matt DTS Gee, after destroying two motherboards, I'm getting better at this
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chip-pulling business <grin>.
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DaviesDoug is that a new olympic event?
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Coach101 Matt, have you had mmuch positive reaction to the new
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DaviesDoug I've heard of chip throwing
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Coach101 Apple Partners/.... program?
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Matt DTS Coach, I personally have seen about 5% positive reaction.
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DaviesDoug apple partners?
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TimH06 What do you guys think about the new program.......Bye Matt. Nice
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|
knowin' ya.
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Matt DTS He asked a question, I answered it.
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Coach101 I think its good.... Does that mean I have to leave?
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DaviesDoug Anyone put that neat graphics demo out here yet....the ray tracing
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one
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TimH06 No!!!!! Sign him up Matt!
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Coach101 Look at it this way.... Apple is in the business of selling
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Coach101 appliances in the II market place (as opposed to programming
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Coach101 environment machines). $675 just cannot cover the costs they
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Coach101 must expend in the developer support area. Now if $675 (if I
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remember
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Coach101 the correct number) breaks a developer, then that developer is
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Coach101 not selling much software.... ergo, is not contributing much to
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DaviesDoug Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
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Bang! Bang!
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TimH06 Well I don't know. Matt, you're up to 10 peanuts a day. Peanuts
|
|
aren't cheep
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Coach101 Apple's profit picture.... Nasty, but I think the logic is
|
|
TimH06 you know.
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DaviesDoug Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!
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TimH06 Just kidding folks.
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DaviesDoug 21 gun solute to the death of PROTOCOL (spelled right)
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Coach101 correct..... Now, $675 is less than $60 per month. I know a
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Coach101 lot of hobbyists in golf, tennis, ..... that spend that much on
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Dave Lyons _I'm_ not selling much software, but.... :)
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DaviesDoug salute was spelled wrong though
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Coach101 their hobby a month. Why not pay apple if what I am really
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|
doing
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Coach101 is supporting a hobby?
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Matt DTS ($600, Coach. $50/month.)
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Coach101 Sorry about any protocol violation..... The fingers were working
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Jump Long Try to find a racket club for that...
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|
DaviesDoug protocol is dead
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AFA Gary J Protocol is dead for the night..
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|
Coach101 the eyes on the tube were dis-engaged.
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Coach101 Ah, but Dave, I thought you were a _national treasure_?
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|
Dave Lyons :)
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|
Jump Long Do you think the amount or support from Apple through
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|
non-developer services
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|
Dave Lyons Coach, even _without_ the $50/month Partners fee, a lot of
|
|
developers
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|
Jump Long channels is enough (help to users groups, information on services
|
|
such as this,
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|
Jump Long etc)?
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|
Dave Lyons _already_ spend a lot of money on their "hobby." If the $600/yr
|
|
meant you
|
|
Dave Lyons got all the stuff you wanted FREE from APDA, that'd be a different
|
|
story!
|
|
Jump Long amount or = amount of
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|
Dave Lyons I agree that devs who can't afford the $600 can do okay with APDA
|
|
membership
|
|
Coach101 The unmentioned item in Apda, is what the _discount_ on
|
|
Coach101 Apple material is.
|
|
Dave Lyons and online (but non-guaranteed) help.
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|
Coach101 On the other side, the support through non-developer channels
|
|
Coach101 (speaking for ALPE only) is OUTSTANDING.. All knowledgeable
|
|
Coach101 sources (Dave Lyons, AFLs, AFAs, etc.) should get _FREE_
|
|
Coach101 status in the new program.... They are in effect promoting
|
|
Coach101 Apple by helping people......
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|
AFA Gary J Great idea, Coach! :)
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|
Dave Lyons Wouldn't bother me, either. :)
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|
AFA Gary J (heheh :)
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|
Coach101 I come from a __large__ mainframe environment, where I pay
|
|
Coach101 lots of money for support (support is not free even when you
|
|
Coach101 buy the multi-mega-$$ iron)..... Goes back to an _unbundling_
|
|
Coach101 loss on IBMs part some ~20 years ago!!!
|
|
Coach101 Oops.... Sorry about the languague
|
|
Jump Long I think the government had something to do with that, Coach.
|
|
Something related
|
|
Jump Long to third-party maintenance.
|
|
Coach101 Disagree......
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|
Coach101 The initial thing that caused software (and software support) to
|
|
Coach101 not be free was that a leasing company sued IBM on the basis
|
|
Coach101 that IBM would only provide software on machines that they (IBM)
|
|
Coach101 installed. Thereby destroying any after/re-market in the
|
|
hardware
|
|
Coach101 arena. Prior to that loss (after which you started paying for
|
|
Jump Long (the third party)
|
|
Coach101 software and software support, immediately from IBM other
|
|
Matt DTS Well, gang, I have to keep a private engagement in PC, so I'll see
|
|
you all later (and some sooner).
|
|
Matt DTS G'night all.
|
|
Coach101 companies fell in line). The maintenance issue, came about a
|
|
Jump Long Bye Matt
|
|
Coach101 little later. I think the leasing company was .... na... I am
|
|
Coach101 not sure so no name
|