512 lines
20 KiB
Plaintext
512 lines
20 KiB
Plaintext
AppleLink
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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January 24, 1989 10:00 p.m. Eastern time
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Topic: Programming Shells, Environments and Utilities
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Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFA Gary J)
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AFA Gary J Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Our trusty forum
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leader, Jim Luther
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AFA Gary J is moving to California to his new job at Apple this evening so
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I'll be the
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AFA Gary J referee in tonight's forum. :)
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AFA Gary J Tonight's topic (should you decide to accept it) is Programming
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Shells,
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AFA Gary J Environments and Utilities.
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AFA Parik (Hello DeadHead & C W Hess)
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AFA Gary J We'll follow protocol this evening, so if you have a question ,
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type a ?
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DeadHead13 ?
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AFA Gary J If you have a comment on the current topic, type a !
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AFL Scott q=dead
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AFA Gary J I'll prompt you and let you know when it's your turn to talk.
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DeadHead13 Is mike on tonight? (Westerfield)
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AFA Gary J Anyone have any burning questions this evening?
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AFA Gary J Hi Floyd
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Bluetamon ?
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AFA Gary J GA, Blue
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AFL Floyd Hi, Gary.
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Bluetamon yeah, what's a real good double hi-res utility
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AFA Gary J Hmmm... I've used the Beagle Brothers utility...
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Bluetamon what's it called?
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DaviesDoug !
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DeadHead13 !
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AFA Gary J (Trying to remember....looking...)
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AFA Gary J Go ahead with your comment, Doug..
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DennisDoms (Beagle Graphics?)
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DaviesDoug shells remember?
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Bluetamon (and utilities)
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFA Gary J Right...utilities too.
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AFA Gary J It's called Beagle Graphics, by Mark Simonsen.
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Bluetamon ?
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AFL Scott Q=Blue... !=Davies,Dead
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AFA Gary J DeadHead, did you have a comment?
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AFL Scott Q+Blue
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DeadHead13 Real quick, Beagle graphics is on sale for $30 directly from
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Beagle bros!
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Bluetamon Can it disassemble portions of the picture, and show the hex for
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it?
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DeadHead13 (special sale)!!
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AFA Parik !
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Bluetamon (waiting...)
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AFA Gary J GA, Parik
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AFA Parik no, as far as I know it can't disassemble it. I wrote a utility
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for APW and
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AFA Parik Orca however that will take any file and put it in its equivalent
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source code
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AFA Parik format. ga
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AFA Gary J From what I recall about using the program, Parik is correct. I
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used the
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Clayburn ?
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DwightW1 ?
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AFA Gary J Merlin Souceror disassembler to produce Hex dumps of screen
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blocks.
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AFA Gary J Anything else, Blue?
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DaviesDoug ?
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AFL Scott Q+Clayburn, Dwight..
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Bluetamon !
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Bluetamon oops, ?
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Clayburn Are there any demo shells with the source listings availible
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AFA Parik !
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Matt DTS !
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AFA Gary J GA, Parik
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DeadHead13 !
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AFA Parik Don Elton should be releasing ECP 8 to the freeware market w/
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source soon if
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AFA Parik not already. ga
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AFL Marty <hi Joe>
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AFL Scott Q+Davies, Blue..!=Blue, Parik, Matt, Dead...
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AFA Gary J I've just heard that version 5 of ECP is available and will be
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AFA Gary J uploaded to the libaries soon.
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AFL Floyd <I got it now, Scott>
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Bluetamon Why does everybody here talk about the ORCA/M so much, and not
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Merlin.
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AFL Scott <Thanks Floyd...:)>
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Bluetamon Is ORCA/M really that good?
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AFA Gary J It does include the source.
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AFA Gary J Matt, did you have a comment?
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Matt DTS To avoid confusion, I'll point out that the SHELL.ASM (or SHELL.C)
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programs...
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AFL Floyd Q=Davies, Blue !=Deadhead
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Matt DTS ...on the Source Code Sampler are not shell programs like APW, or
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ECP or Davex;
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Matt DTS rather, they're a basic shell around which to build your desktop
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programs...
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AFA Parik (Hi Bill!)
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Matt DTS ...for the IIgs. (trying to avoid any confusion before it
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starts). GA.
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BillP Hi Parik!
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AFA Gary J Ok, GA Doug with your question..
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Bluetamon 8:) (zzzzz....)
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DaviesDoug Do the runtime libararies exist yet?..........
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DaviesDoug what is the best way to make a shell call?.....
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DaviesDoug the user tool set?..............
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DaviesDoug done
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AFL Floyd Q=(DaviesDoug), Blutamon !=DeadHead
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Matt DTS ! ! !
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AFA Gary J GA Matt
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Matt DTS 1. What run-time libraries? Some exist, but I don't know which
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ones you mean.
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Matt DTS 2. As far as I know, there's only one way to make a shell call,
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and it's...
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AFA Parik (Hi Andy & Andy :)
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AndyWells Hi Andy..
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DaviesDoug The loader runtime libraries your suppose to be able to make
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Matt DTS ...documented in both the APW and ORCA/M manuals (IIgs).
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AndyWells Hi Matt
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Matt DTS 3. What about user tool sets? (some exist, also).
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DaviesDoug No!!
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ShrinkIt Hi to everyone who just splattered a flashnote across my screen...
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:-)
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Matt DTS 4. Try asking one question at a time and making it more
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verbose.
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DaviesDoug I want to write my own shell with calls and have others call my
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routines
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Matt DTS Loader run-time libraries: The APW linker won't create them, but
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the...
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Matt DTS ...MPW IIgs linker will. Speculation on bringing this to APW
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isn't my dept.
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AFL Floyd Q=(DaviesDoug), Bluetamon !=DeadHead
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BillP :)
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Matt DTS Writing your own shell: I'll pass on that one for the time
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being.
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Bluetamon (I don't have a question...never mind..)
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AFA Gary J Matt? Pass? :)
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Matt DTS I don't know exactly what about writing your own shell you're
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asking, Doug.
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AFL Floyd Q=(DaviesDoug) !=DeadHead
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DaviesDoug about calling routines in my shell...letting other applications
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call them
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DaviesDoug like orca lets you do....but he uses the prodos vector
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Bluetamon ?
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DaviesDoug Mike W does
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AFL Floyd q+Bluetamon
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Bluetamon Is DOS considered a shell?? and does anybody know where to get
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some good...
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Bluetamon book on making your own dos??
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Bluetamon (not Beneath apple dos or prodos, I have those..)
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Matt DTS I'll pass on this to Dave Lyons, who inexplicably...
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Matt DTS ...happens to be sitting beside me in this very room (life's funny
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that way):
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AFL Floyd Q=(DaviesDoug), Bluetamon !=Deadhead
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFA Gary J Doug, did you get your question answered?
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Clayburn !
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DaviesDoug not really
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AFA Parik (yeahhh, the 23 limit has been exceeded... :-)
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THE GIBBER (just got dumped)
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AFA Gary J Maybe you could put it up on the message boards.
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RosenNeil I thought 23 was a limit?
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DaviesDoug just trying to create conversation!...I know how to do it!!!
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AFL Floyd !=DeadHead, Clayburn
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AndyWells 50 here
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JSchober (not anymore!)
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Matt DTS Doug, I think you'll end up intercepting the E100A8 vector just
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like APW does;
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Matt DTS can't think of anything better to do.
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AFA Gary J Ok Blue... I don't consider DOS as a shell. It is an operating
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system.
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DaviesDoug user tool set works much better
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DwightW1 ?
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Clayburn Maybe someone should give the definition of a shell
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AFL Floyd PROTOCOL!
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AFA Gary J RIGHT!
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AFA Gary J :)
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Matt DTS !
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AFL Floyd Q=(Bluetamon), DwightW1 !=Deadhead, Matt
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AFA Gary J Matt, GA
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DeadHead13 I have a comment
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Matt DTS Oh, I'm Matt! He had to remind me. You might try requesting that
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your shell
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Matt DTS be assigned a range of command numbers (APW=$01xx, your shell
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could have a
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Matt DTS different range).
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Matt DTS (ga)
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DeadHead13 way back, bluetamon asked about source code for a shell. If you
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get Orca for
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DeadHead13 the //, you can also get the source code for the orca shell for an
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extra 20
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DeadHead13 <done>
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AFL Floyd Q=DwightW1
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DwightW1 my question follows...
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DwightW1 why does the latest version of apw running under system v3.1 not
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recoginize
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DwightW1 the linked command whereas the earlier version of apw does?
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Matt DTS !
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DwightW1 i keep getting 'segment not in module
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AFA Gary J GA Matt
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Matt DTS So you're saying that it does *recognize* the command, but that it
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won't work?
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DwightW1 yes
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DwightW1 all of the segments are present....
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AFL Floyd < Q= is empty after Dwight >
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Matt DTS (Matt's going to look for his APW reference...trying to find a
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descr of that
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Matt DTS error msg, which we've never seen. He HAS the manual....)
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Matt DTS Dwight, it means "a segment you specified in the SELECT command is
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not in the
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Matt DTS file you are linking." Does your linked script have some
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SELECTS
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Matt DTS in it?
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DwightW1 yes.....but....
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Matt DTS I think there's a LINKED option that will report on the progress
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through your
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DwightW1 using the command with the same link file works with....
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Matt DTS script as it goes, which should help you narrow down the
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problem--looking now.
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DwightW1 the 'old' apw
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Matt DTS Are you linking C, assembly, both, or what? Did you change
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compilers or
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Matt DTS assemblers as well as changing linker versions?
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DwightW1 assembly only
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DwightW1 every thing is the same only update of apw
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AFA Parik !
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JeffDWoods !
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AFA Gary J GA with your comment, Park
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AFA Parik I thought the only update to APW was the tool interface files?
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Why not just
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AFA Gary J Ooops, Parik :)
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DwightW1 i read the new apw document carefully regarding the linked
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command
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AFA Parik replace the old AINCLUDE subdirectory with the new one and see
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what happens...
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AFA Parik ga
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DwightW1 ...no change from the old apw document
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AFL Floyd < Q=(DwightW1) !=JeffDWoods >
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DwightW1 will try and thank you
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AFA Gary J Did you have a comment, Jeff?
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JeffDWoods Matt asked if you updated the assembler, too. Did the APW update
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include
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JeffDWoods the assembler update?
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JeffDWoods ga
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DwightW1 no
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AFA Gary J Anything else, Dwight?
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JeffDWoods You're just lucky, I guess! :)
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DwightW1 i am still using the original assembler from apw
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AFL Floyd < queue is bone dry >
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JeffDWoods ?
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DwightW1 no... will try suggestion given
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DwightW1 thank you
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AFA Gary J Ok, GA with your question, Jeff
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JeffDWoods What is everyones FAVORITE shell, environment, or utility? (How's
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this?) :D
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AFA Gary J heheh
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Dan Burton !
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JeffDWoods Just trying to stir up conversation! (or argument since their is
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nothing else)
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AFL Marty !
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AFA Gary J What's yours, Dan?
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AFA Parik !
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Dan Burton one that hasn't been released yet
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DwightW1 i have grown accustomed to apw....(now if i can just learn how to
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use it) :)
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AFA Gary J heh..I supposed you can't tell us about it, either?
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JeffDWoods Are you being sarcastic, Dan?
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BillP !
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Dan Burton Its a secret
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AFL Floyd <Q= (Jeff) != Marty, Parik, BillP >
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Dan Burton It's going to be great thoug
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AFA Gary J Ok...Marty, What do you like to use?
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JerryK27 Hi Andy (ShrinkIt)... I got your mail and I think I know what is
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wrong.
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AFL Marty basic.system
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AFL Marty (I love AppleSoft BASIC)
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JeffDWoods (more VaporWare) I don't care about things I can't have (or
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afford!)
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AFA Gary J :) That's probably the one shell that most everyone is familiar
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with.
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ShrinkIt ok, I just sent you mail about it.
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AFA Gary J (At least I consider it a shell)
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ShrinkIt (to Jerry that was)
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AFA Gary J GA with your comment, Parik
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AFA Parik without a doubt, EdAsm.
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JerryK27 I bet you aren't turning off the 5.25" drive motor... that will
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cause the
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Dan Burton ?
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AndyWells Merlin 8/16 for me..
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JerryK27 computer to hang when it tries to access the UniDisk 3.5
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AFA Gary J Why do you like EdAsm, Parik?
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AFA Parik It has power.
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AFL Floyd < We're using protocol people :) >
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AFA Parik Its versatile.
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AFA Parik Its easy to use!
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AFA Parik (and I'm joe Isuzu)
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AFL Floyd < Q= (Jeff), Dan Burton !=BillP >
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JSchober :) thought so... I was getting worried, Parik...
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AFL Marty <bless you Parik>
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JeffDWoods It won't generate GS/OS applications or DAs.
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AFA Gary J How about you, Bill?
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BillP MPW IIGS I can't live without the automatic help features and
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multiple editors
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JSchober (it won't generate ANYTHING!) !
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JeffDWoods See comment above re: "affordable". ;)
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AFA Gary J Parik, now THAT'S power! (MPW)
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AFA Parik (the mini-moniter has more power! :)
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AFA Gary J One of my favorite utilites is Dave Lyon's Nifty List CDA. It is
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great
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AFL Floyd < Q= (Jeff), Dan Burton >
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AFA Gary J in trying to disassemble and debug code (and I also know that
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Dave's probably
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JSchober err... !!!
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AFA Gary J reading this... :)
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ShrinkIt (shucks, and here I thought parik hand-coded everything... I'm
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disappointed ;)
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AFL Floyd < Q= (Jeff), Dan != Joe >
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AFA Gary J Jeff, do you have a comment?
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JeffDWoods Nope. Good comments. Except Parik. :)
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AFA Gary J Ok then, on to Dan's question. GA Dan.
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JeffDWoods ga, Dan
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AFA Parik :P
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Dan Burton Is there any rules on sharing Tools in a shell enviroment
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AFL Floyd < Joe had a comment >
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Matt DTS !
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AFA Gary J Missed you Joe...do you want to slip one in here before we answer
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Dan's
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AFA Gary J question?
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JSchober Yup... about the utils: My two favorites are Nifty List, for the
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commented
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JSchober disassemblies (and everything else it offers!), and the nice
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simple Monitor/
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JSchober Mini-assembler pair. Far faster than any commercial product for
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doing quick
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JSchober changes to m/l code, and immediately trying it out again. That's
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all, GA...
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AFL Floyd < Q= (Dan) !=Matt >
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AFA Gary J Ok, Matt, GA on Dan's question.
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Matt DTS Unlike DAs, there is no "minimum" set of tools that are guaranteed
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to be...
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Matt DTS ..started up when a shell application is launched, so each one
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should...
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Matt DTS ...start any tools it needs which aren't already active, and shut
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them down...
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Matt DTS ...if it started them up. There are no rules on "sharing" tools
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among...
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Matt DTS ...different applications (as opposed to apps and DAs, for
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example) because...
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Matt DTS ...no one's written a MultiFinder or Switcher type program yet to
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need such...
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Matt DTS ...rules. GA.
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AFA Gary J Does that answer it for you, Dan?
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AFL Floyd < Queue is empty >
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Dan Burton What happens when someone writes a Multifinder type
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application??????
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Matt DTS We shoot them for overusing their punctuation. <evil grin>
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AFA Gary J :)
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JeffDWoods !
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Matt DTS Hopefully, those people (or that person) will ask us at Apple for
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some...
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Dan Burton oh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Matt DTS ...guidelines on how best to do this.
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Dan Burton Ok I'm asking.
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JeffDWoods !!
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AFL Floyd < !=JeffDWoods >
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Dan Burton But it may be to late
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AFA Gary J GA, Jeff
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Matt DTS We would need to see it through official channels, phrased more
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specifically,
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Matt DTS Dan, to give the best answers.
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JeffDWoods There may never be a Multifinder for the GS as it exists now....
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Dan Burton It can and will be done
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JeffDWoods TMH2 (Mike Howeth) & I started poking around trying to see how
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close we could
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DwightW1 didn't roger wagner write a switcher program for the //gs?
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JeffDWoods get to a MultiLauncher (as we called it).
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AFL Floyd < SoftSwitch is ProDOS 8 only >
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JSchober (can't you have one P16 application?)
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JeffDWoods The farther we got in trying to intercept calls to force
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compatible sharing
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AFL Marty (no)
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AFA Gary J (depends upon the P16 application)
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JeffDWoods of toolsets and OS, the more problems we ran into. I believe that
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Apple will
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JSchober !
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JeffDWoods have to write a new set of toolbox routines and firmware (with RAM
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vectors)
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DaviesDoug !
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AFA Gary J GA, Joe
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JSchober It's a shame that the Scheduler has such a rotten small queue...
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(4 items?)
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JeffDWoods & perhaps a different OS (don't know about GS/OS, yet) to allow
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the cooperation
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JeffDWoods needed to implement. When Apple is ready for the ][ to do it, it
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could. ga
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JSchober It seems that if that was far bigger, and some other things
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changed, you could
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AFL Floyd < !=DaviesDoug >
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JSchober get away with at LEAST a partial MultiFinder. But as I understand
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it, Apple
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JSchober deliberately restricted the Scheduler to PREVENT that... (that
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more or less
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JSchober correct, Matt?) GA...
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AFA Parik <- can just imagine multitasking on a GS. "Wow, look at AW GS
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print twice as
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AFA Parik slow..." :-)
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Matt DTS Keep me out of this, Joe!
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DeadHead13 ?
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JSchober Ugggh, Parik... don't think about THAT. :) Matt...
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AFA Gary J GA with your comment, Doug
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DaviesDoug I agree with Dan, it can and WILL be done (sorta)
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ShrinkIt (multitask? ewwww... watch it crawl after 3 applications... )
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JeffDWoods !
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DaviesDoug We do work for the same company though so I must agree
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AFA Gary J GA Jeff
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DaviesDoug besides Dan's my boss
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JeffDWoods Toolbox
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AFA Parik LOL!
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFA Parik the boss is always right...:)
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Matt DTS Yeah, the truth comes out... :)
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JeffDWoods Toolbox Ref. Mnl.: "The Scheduler is not designed to support
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multitasking."19-7
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AFL Floyd < Q=DeadHead >
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JSchober Right, exactly, Jeff...
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JeffDWoods page 19-7, that is. ga
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DeadHead13 What's this about Multitasking? Any plans for it Matt??
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DeadHead13 Maybe in the next incarnation of the GS?
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DeadHead13 ga
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JeffDWoods Apple will HAVE to write the system (incl. tools, firmware, and
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OS) to allow it
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JSchober >> Matt DTS Keep me out of this, Joe! << (replace Joe with
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DeadHead. ;)
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AFA Gary J I don't think he'll answer that, Deadhead :)
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AFA Parik (Matt's trying to find his "I cannot comment..." macro :)
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AFA Gary J Ok, I have an announcement to make...
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JSchober (given to all Apple employees... along the same line as the ol'
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cyanide
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BillP more like the "Are you out of your Vulcan mind" button
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JSchober capsules...)
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DeadHead13 Does that mean that Apple is working on the "Amiga Killer" and
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can't comment?
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AFA Gary J Next week's Development Forum conference (on January 31st) will
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be
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AFA Parik LOL, you heard about that too, eh...
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AFL Marty hahahahaha
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AFL Marty the Amiga killer? hahaha
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AFA Gary J held in AppleLink's Cortland Auditorium. Alan Bird of Beagle Bros
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will be our
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AFA Gary J guest. Alan is the author of D-Code, an Applesoft debugging
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utility, Program
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AFA Gary J Writer, a full-screen editor for Applesoft; and the Beagle
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Compiler, a ProDOS
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AFA Gary J based Applesoft BASIC compiler.
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AFA Parik ()()() :::clap::: :::clap::: :::clap::: kudo's to Gary for
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running a fine
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AFA Parik show.
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AFA Gary J We hope to see you all there in the Cortland next week.
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ShrinkIt apple? an amiga killer? hee... hee... please, spare me... lol.
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but I wouldn'
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JSchober Thanks, Gary! :) (and AFA Floyd... ;)
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Matt DTS See y'all later, gang.
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ShrinkIt t mind beeing proven wrong... :)
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AFA Gary J The hour for this chat is up, but we'll kill the protocol and have
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it out
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AFL Floyd Joe: :p
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AFA Gary J as long as you want now :)
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JSchober hehehe
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AFA Parik heh
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AFA Gary J Thanks, Floyd.
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JSchober (better not anger da boss, tho... :)
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DeadHead13 Matt left?
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AFA Gary J Bye, Matt.
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AFL Floyd No problema.
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AFL Marty (he got outta here fast!)
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AFA Parik Matt's going to go work on the Amiga Killer.
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JSchober He didn't want to talk about the Amiga killer ANY MORE! :)
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AFL Floyd :)
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JSchober Right, what Parik said..
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ShrinkIt of course, would you stick around if you were an apple employee
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and you were
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AFA Gary J Hehe... what do you expect? :)
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DeadHead13 What doe everyone else think about multi tasking on te future
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GS?
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ShrinkIt going to be peppered with more questions?
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DeadHead13 Anyone have inside info?
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AFA Parik I'm not holding my breath...
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JSchober It'll come... AWGS already does it, somewhat...
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DaviesDoug party time!!!
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DaviesDoug party time!!!
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AFA Parik I'm having problems with the current GS. :)
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ShrinkIt multitasking? no before we get a faster machine. IE - never.
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Dan Burton A lot of things didn't get thoug over very well while writing the
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tools
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JSchober Well, so we need a faster processor... picky picky...
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DeadHead13 Not problems, just slow
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AFA Gary J WE can comment on it all we want, but obviously Matt can't! :)
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JSchober (hey, could =someone= send me a copy of tonight's log?)
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DaviesDoug I think it's very possible
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AFL Marty I multitask on the GS right now.
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JSchober LOL Gary...
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AFA Parik Jeff, what did you want to deescusss?
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Dan Burton other wise multitasking would be a lot easier
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AFA Parik So do I marty, but I have multiple GSs. :)
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AFL Marty Me too!
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AFL Marty :)
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DeadHead13 how marty?
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AFA Parik hehe
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AFL Marty Two GS's
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JeffDWoods Joe, I logged everything. You want a copy?
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AFL Floyd Marty means he can chew gum and use his GS at the same time! ;)
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DaviesDoug Apple talk is running in the back ground. Sorta multi-tasking
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JSchober Yuppers, if you please... thanks! :)
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