3377 lines
145 KiB
Plaintext
3377 lines
145 KiB
Plaintext
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SUBJECT: FRACTALS & CROP CIRCLES FILE: UFO1233
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Article 9253 of sci.skeptic:
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Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
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From: revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
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Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
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Subject: Re: Fractals & Crop Circles
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Message-ID: <sNH283w164w@cellar.UUCP>
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Date: 10 Sep 91 03:46:15 GMT
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References: <1991Sep8.202245.27765@bradley.bradley.edu>
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Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS)
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Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
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Lines: 59
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pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman) writes:
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> In <ZsVV810w164w@cellar.UUCP> revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) write
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> >stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes:
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> >> If a mandelbrot set appeared on something like a Mayan bas-relief, we woul
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> >> say that the Mayans did it and wonder at how little we know about an india
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> >> culture that was so obviously advanced in certain areas... some of us woul
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> >> claim they were like ' idiot savants ' ...others would just chalk it up
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> >> to coincidence.
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> > Nope, not likely at all. To generate a Mandelbrot Set requires not
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> >only using math that uses the imaginary value i (the square root of -1), but
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> >iterating the same equation roughly 200 times for every pioint on the grid
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> >that the set is beiong plotted on.
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>
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> And building a large pyramind requires lots of man-hours or intense labor.
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> As does (presumably) building Stonehenge and other such interesting things.
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>
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> > One could, concievably, do the math
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> >without a computer-- sure, if you want to spend a lifetime doing thousands o
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> >mathematical equations on a project whose significance isn't likely to be
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> >apparent.
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>
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> Similar things have been said about the great monoliths. Sure, you can do
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> it without modern machinery, but it would take forever, and why do it?
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>
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> Why ask why? :) Obviously someone did some of these things anyway...
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> --
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> -----
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> Pete Hartman Bradley University pwh@bradley.bradley.edu
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> jello is cheaper than horses!
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Pete, you've obviously missed the difference betweebn the Pyramids,
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Stonehenge, and the like. What was required to build those structurew was
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well within the capabilities of the societies that built them. Similarly, any
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significance they had was evident both in the cultural records available (in
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the caes of the Pyramids) or directly relevant to their survival (i.e., some
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theories re Stonehenge's use as a calendar to determine agricultural cycles).
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But in order to develop the Mandelbrot Set, as I'd said, doesn't just require
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technological advancement: it requires a very substantial body of
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mathematical work behind it. (The ancients were advanced in mathematics,
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obviously, but I don't see any evidence that they were aware of such things
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as the square root of negative 1.) Similarly, one would have to be willing to
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expend considerable energies performing lengthy, repetitive calculations on
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values incorporating the value i, _and_ plot them on a grid in the apropriate
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manner.
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We have a pretty good understanding of how the Egyptians built the Pyramids,
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and what's more, we also have a very good understanding of _why_ they built
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them. (And I must remind you that the idea of finding a Mandelbrot Set in
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some ancient carvings was hypothetical to begin with-- which makes your
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original point seem even more nonsensical. Just what were you objecting to?)
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""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
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Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics
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Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
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revpk@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
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""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
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Article 9214 of sci.skeptic:
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Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!sdd.hp.com!think.com!news.bbn.com!bbn.com!ncramer
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From: ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
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Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
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Subject: Re: Executive Summary [was: Fractals...]
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Message-ID: <66199@bbn.BBN.COM>
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Date: 10 Sep 91 00:24:28 GMT
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References: <1991Sep9.162645.6370@engage.pko.dec.com>
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Sender: news@bbn.com
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Reply-To: ncramer@labs-n.bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
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Lines: 20
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stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes:
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>ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer) writes:
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> [Maryquote#1 deleted]
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>>Isn't this beautiful?
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Then, it just keeps getting better...
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> ... crop symbols were the hard evidence you keep saying you require.
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...and better.
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>None are so blind are those who WILL NOT see.
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Can't argue with that.
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Keep it up Mary. A few more of these and you'll render sci.skeptic --or
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any overt defense of rational thought-- wholly superfluous.
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N
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Article 9230 of sci.skeptic:
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Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!triton.unm.edu!ee5391aa
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From: ee5391aa@triton.unm.edu (Duke McMullan n5gax)
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Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
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Subject: Halftime Show! Was: Executive Summary [was: Fractals...]
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Message-ID: <a#0b#9_@lynx.unm.edu>
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Date: 10 Sep 91 02:56:17 GMT
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References: <1991Sep9.162645.6370@engage.pko.dec.com>
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Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
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Lines: 215
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In article <1991Sep9.162645.6370@engage.pko.dec.com>
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stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes:
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>You know what? I don't think you really want hard evidence because you
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>DON'T WANT proof that psi exists. It's your ego that drives you... not
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>your intellect.
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I rather suspect, Mary, that _all_ of us are driven in various degrees by
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both ego and intellect. Witness the frequent emotional outbursts (such as
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yours, above...but by no means limited to the pro-psi side of the stadium)
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on this newsgroup as an example.
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A proof is a very personal thing, and what constitutes a proof to you
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likely will fail as sufficient evidence to another. E.g., this stuff on
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crop circles. You remain unconvinced that the mundane answer is true...or,
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at least, so I seem to read in your postings. You defend it on the basis
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that the declamation of these two fellows doesn't _prove_ that _some_ of the
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cc's weren't made by extraterrestials...which, of course, it doesn't. How-
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ever, absence of proof does not constitute disproof, neither does absence of
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disproof constitute proof...for some people.
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The arguments here make me think of children playing games. With the rules
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set, most will get along pretty well. When the rules are somewhat nebulous,
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or when various kids have different ideas of the rules, watch out! The fur's
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gonna fly!
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We have here people programmed to various different sets of rules for "prov-
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ing" the "reality" of various matters. Mucho years ago, it was proven that
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it is _impossible_ to trisect an angle, in the plane, using only the compass
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and straightedge. The proof is group-theoretic, requiring essentially grad-
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uate-school standing in mathematics (in most curricula) to find oneself in
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a class where such proofs are expounded. Most people with less preparation
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would be completely bewildered by the proof; it would be beyond their com-
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prehension and they would be unimpressed by it. The compass and straight-
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edge, however, are simple to use, and methods of using them are taught in
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every decent (note that qualifier ;^) high school in the country. Consequen-
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tly, many people can understand the nature of the problem of how to trisect
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an angle. Many try. Many fail, and admit it. A few, by way either of er-
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ror or simple misunderstanding, arrive at what appears to be a trisection, and
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then become very, very annoyed when math types won't take it seriously.
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This last is where ego comes into it...perhaps from both sides.
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I see no particular reason to believe in anything except mundane explanations
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for crop circles, although I should point out explicitly that I've not inves-
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tigated the matter. Nor will I.
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Why not?
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Why am I unwilling to investigate this matter? Ego?
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One might call it that, but I perceive it differently. I, like yourself and
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everyone else, have only a certain amount of time and energy to do the things
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I want to accomplish. If I wished to make money gambling, I wouldn't play the
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slots, neither would I bet two dollars to your one on a coin coming up heads
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or tails. "Gamblers believe in probability; suckers belive in luck."
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If one investigates the various areas of pseudoscience, certain repeated pat-
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terns emerge. _All_ of the popular (personal opinion:) fuzzy-headednesses of
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this day, including Ancient Astronauts (in the style of Von Daineken (sp?)),
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Crystal Power, (ahem) Crop Circles, Channeling, and, yes, _every_ case of
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parapsychological testing that I've been able to examine (twenty years back, I
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was _very_ interested in this stuff) have displayed those characteristics.
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(I should point out that _reproducibility_ was the most common problem here.
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All these things fail to be reproducible...if watched too closely, or tested
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in ways which are objectively verifiable. Such was, and is, my experience.)
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Certainly, this does not constitute _proof_ that these fields/phenomena are
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baloney, but it does suggest that the probability is rather higher than other-
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wise might be assumed.
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In my undergraduate days, I invested a good deal of time reading about various
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"paranormal" stuff, attempting various experiments in various fields of psi,
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attended a number of lectures on such topics as "energy healing", dowsing,
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"free energy", and a few et ceteras, took several courses purported to in-
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crease psychic abilities, began studying aikido (trying to understand the
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principles of "ki"), and...well, the list goes on.
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I discovered an interesting mixture. I also developed (EGO WARNING) a bet-
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ter-than-average bullshit filter. There were certain truths here...and cer-
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tain untruths. Many things simply were unverifiable. Great claims were
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made...and very little in the way of convincing (to me) demonstration was man-
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ifested.
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After a while, this stuff ceased to entertain me. My interest lagged. I was
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not content to "know about" this stuff...I wanted to _do_ it. I concluded
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that there was nothing mystical about "ki" as used in martial arts. Bluntly,
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I started applying a set of "scientific" (read: objective) criteria to these
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hobby studies, as well as my scholastic work. I discovered that I could know
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a lot about this, but I couldn't do any of it. Neither could anyone else.
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I found I had a good deal of "faith" (probability that this will work for me:
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pretty high) in engineering, math, physics, chemistry, aikijutsu, etc. My
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"faith" (probability that will work for me: pretty low) in parastuff faded
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away. I was no longer impressed, for a number of reasons, by the "catch-22"
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that you have to believe in paranormal phenomena for them to manifest.
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Why? Because I couldn't separate the real from the unreal, whether that lat-
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ter be a fraud, or simply my perception. You see, another of my hobbies is
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magic, with an emphasis on mentalism. I bamboozle people as a hobby. I
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_know_ how easy it is (and how much fun it is) to be fooled.
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I've never encountered a "believer" in parapsi who wouldn't admit that there
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were frauds out there, and most would point to entire areas which they regar-
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ded as fallacious.
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At this point, I can't resist quoting Martin Gardner. He wrote a book called
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_Fads_and_Fallacies_ (In the Name of Science), and this paragraph he wrote as
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the beginning of the preface to the second edition:
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The first edition of this book prompted many curious letters
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from irate readers. The most violent letters came from Reichians,
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furious because the book considered orgonomy alongside such (to
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them) outlandish cults as dianetics. Dianeticians, of course, felt
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the same about orgonomy. I heard from homeopaths who were insulted
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to find themselves in company with such frauds as osteopathy and
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chiropractic, and one chiropractor in Kentucky "pitied" me because
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I had turned my spine on God's greatest gift to suffering humanity.
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Several admirers of Dr. Bates favored me with letters so badly typed
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that I suspect the writers were in urgent need of strong spectacles.
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Oddly enough, most of these correspondents objected to one chapter
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only, thinking all the others excellent.
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Until a good filter is devised which will separate fraud from fair in these
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matters, skeptical persons will not be convinced.
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For myself, I admit the _possibility_ of almost any of these strange things.
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That doesn't mean I _believe_ in them, and THAT doesn't mean I _disbelieve_
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in them. I remain simply unconvinced. There's a difference, although many
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won't accept that.
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It's been said many times before, and I'll repeat it: "Extraordinary matters
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require extraordinary proof." There's a problem there...it's simply not true.
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"Extraordinary matters" of the sort we're describing don't require extraordin-
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ary proofs at all; they require only very ordinary, everyday proofs of the
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sort we use to demonstrate the existence of, say, magnetism, solid objects, or
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communication by verbal interchange. The trouble is, these simple, straight-
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forward proof don't seem to be there.
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"Ordinary proof" shouldn't be particularly hard to come by..._if_ the pheno-
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mena under consideration are real. If they're not...if they're not, then they
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should behave exactly as they seem to under serious and detailed examination.
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I.e., they fail to manifest.
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Yes, I'll grant the possibility of "shyness effects", "skeptic neutralizing",
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or whatever the current buzzword is for "real" psi phenomena failing when ex-
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amined by a skeptic. I'll grant the possibility, but not the reality. I find
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it...let's just say...less than convincing. It removes our only mechanism for
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differentiating the genuine from the phoney. And there are _always_ phoneys.
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Even in the "hard" sciences, there are phoneys. They embarrass their col-
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legues. There are mechanisms in place (and, to be certain, they don't always
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work) to reduce this sort of thing, but still, some always seem to get through.
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Now, let's land on that question: WHY won't I examine, fairly and in detail,
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the evidence for/against E.T. causes of crap, excuse me, crop circles?
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Because it manifests so many of the characteristics of crackpot foolishness.
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_Many_ things manifest those characteristics, and why should I choose cc's
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over, say, Bigfoot or the Marfa Lights?
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It seems likely to me that _all_ of these fields of endeavor have very, very
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small probabilities of turning out to be anything other than the proverbial
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wild goose chase. There might be, among them, one or two which hide some
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mighty, world-shaking matter, and would be well worth the pursuit. But which
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one? Why should I choose cc's over Bigfoot or the Marfa Lights?
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At least, the Marfa Lights allegedly manifest a single (long) day's drive from
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Albuquerque. I might be able to do some real investigations there. But,
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again, time and money...and always energy. Note that's just to investigate
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_one_ of these mysteries, and the nearest one that I mentioned, at that. I
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cannot practically investigate _all_ of these in any useful manner, even if
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I could afford it. As for just one...no, I'll not play the slot machines.
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Neither will I bet two-to-one on the side of the coin that comes up next.
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Neither will I invest my time in studying the Marfa Lights. Or Bigfoot. Or
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crop circles. If it pleases you to do so, then have at it, with my blessings.
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I'll stick with aikijutsu, cave exploring, conjuring, and other "mundane"
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matters.
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I'll bet I come out ahead, too.
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>None are so blind are those who WILL NOT see.
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Nice rhetoric. Here's the response:
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"Those who believe illusion, and accept as truth their own vain imaginings,
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perceive less that those entirely bereft of eyes."
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Pretty snappy, huh? I just coined it myself. And, like your statement above,
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it establishes nothing useful.
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Like the pro/anti firearm matter bouncing across this group, the argument lies
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with ideology. Most discussions quickly degenerate into name calling, on
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_both_ sides, establishing that ego indeed is an active principle. There is
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intellect, too, which is why I haven't long since unsubscribed to this group.
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Well, the halftime show's over, and the band (that's I) is returning to the
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bleachers to watch the rest of the game.
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Here come the teams; I'm outta here....
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d
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--
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"The French driver's infantile recklessness often annoyed him, but not so much
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as did the typical Italian driver's use of the automobile as an extension of
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his penis, or the British driver's use of it as a substitute." -- Trevanian
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Duke McMullan n5gax nss13429r phon505-255-4642 ee5391aa@triton.cirt.unm.edu
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Article 9243 of sci.skeptic:
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Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!mips!ptimtc!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL
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From: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu (Carl J Lydick)
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Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
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Subject: Re: Executive Summary [was: Fractals...]
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Message-ID: <1991Sep10.044919.20694@cco.caltech.edu>
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Date: 10 Sep 91 04:49:19 GMT
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References: <1991Sep9.162645.6370@engage.pko.dec.com>
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Sender: news@cco.caltech.edu
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Reply-To: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu
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Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
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Lines: 27
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Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu
|
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In article <1991Sep9.162645.6370@engage.pko.dec.com>, stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes:
|
||
|
>>Pity all those poor, silly "hard-science, types" and their misguided
|
||
|
>>insistence on "repeatable experiments"...
|
||
|
>>Thank you, Mary.
|
||
|
>>
|
||
|
>>You've made our case far more succinctly, far more clearly than we could
|
||
|
>>ever hope to do.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>Do you mean that you don't really want a "repeatable experiment"? That
|
||
|
>you'd prefer not to have proof to deal with? That all the talk was just
|
||
|
>that... talk?
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>I didn't insult you. I merely said that the crop symbols were the hard
|
||
|
>evidence you keep saying you require. No talk of "pity"... no mention of
|
||
|
>"silly"... nothing said of "misguided insistence" at all.
|
||
|
|
||
|
They're hard evidence that crop symbols exist. By what incredibly unfathomable
|
||
|
process did you come to the conclusion that they're hard evidence of PSI and
|
||
|
not of somebody dragging a board around a field?
|
||
|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
||
|
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL
|
||
|
|
||
|
Disclaimer: Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS. That's what I get paid for. My
|
||
|
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). So
|
||
|
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
|
||
|
organization responsible for it. If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
|
||
|
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9220 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!cunews!software.mitel.com!meier
|
||
|
From: meier@Software.Mitel.COM (Rolf Meier)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Fractals & Crop Circles
|
||
|
Message-ID: <9251@augustus>
|
||
|
Date: 9 Sep 91 16:36:55 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep6.172310.11183@engage.pko.dec.com> <1991Sep7.235155.26995@javelin.sim.es.com>
|
||
|
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.
|
||
|
Lines: 16
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep7.235155.26995@javelin.sim.es.com> pashdown@javelin.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
>stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
>> Now it's your turn. What symbol would YOU like to see written in
|
||
|
>> the fields?
|
||
|
|
||
|
> Smiley face
|
||
|
|
||
|
etc.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
The Mars face. Or maybe the man in the moon.
|
||
|
|
||
|
___________________________________________________________________________
|
||
|
Rolf Meier Mitel Corporation
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 8892 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Xref: bilver sci.skeptic:8892 alt.paranormal:2538
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!fang!att!att!linac!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!wang!news
|
||
|
From: warren@worlds.com (Warren Burstein)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Physics: Separate Particles Communicate at a Distance
|
||
|
Message-ID: <601@vaccine.UUCP>
|
||
|
Date: 3 Sep 91 21:20:37 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Aug23.221620.8570@beta.lanl.gov> <1991Aug28.212833.14211@rosevax.rosemount.com> <1991Aug29.000836.27078@beta.lanl.gov>
|
||
|
Sender: news@wang.com
|
||
|
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Organization: WorldWide Software
|
||
|
Lines: 13
|
||
|
|
||
|
jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (Jim Giles) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
>EPR means never having to look at your shoes.
|
||
|
|
||
|
When I took a course in QM there were no chairs in the room so we sat
|
||
|
on the floor with our backs to the wall which made it very obvious to
|
||
|
the professor that my socks didn't match. I told him I was
|
||
|
color-coding my feet.
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
/|/-\/-\ The entire world Jerusalem
|
||
|
|__/__/_/ is a very strange carrot
|
||
|
|warren@ But the farmer
|
||
|
/ worlds.COM is not worried at all.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9242 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!vax1.cc.lehigh.edu!lehigh.bitnet!PML3
|
||
|
From: PML3@NS.CC.LEHIGH.EDU (King of Birds (AKA: Paul Lewis))
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: RE: Crop Circles ... Solved! (??????)
|
||
|
Message-ID: <09099122.25.40PML3@lehigh.bitnet>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 03:26:08 GMT
|
||
|
Lines: 14
|
||
|
|
||
|
Whether or not a plasma ball can crush wheat or not, I don't know, but
|
||
|
there's no way in hell that one could create a design like that on
|
||
|
the Led Zeppelin box set cover...
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Paul Lewis | 'The love you take is equal to the love you make.' |
|
||
|
| -The Beatles, 'The End' |
|
||
|
Are you | 'Forcing the issue was always worth it.' |
|
||
|
sure that | -Jello Biafra |
|
||
|
Oswald | 'You always said yes. Yes to anyone with a badge or a flag.
|
||
|
killed | -Bruce Wayne to Clark Kent, 'The Dark Knight Returns'
|
||
|
J.F.K.? | 'We turned in horror toward the back of the grassy knoll |
|
||
|
| where it seemed the sounds had originated.' |
|
||
|
___________|_______-Cheryl McKinnon, witness to the murder of J.F.K.___|
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9216 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!psych.toronto.edu!daniel
|
||
|
From: daniel@psych.toronto.edu (Daniel Read)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Dates (Re: UFOs and Abductees)
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep10.010300.20473@psych.toronto.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 01:03:00 GMT
|
||
|
References: <l65b3#h@lynx.unm.edu> <1842@tuegate.tue.nl> <1991Sep6.130130.4768@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
|
||
|
Organization: Dept. of Psychology, University of Toronto
|
||
|
Lines: 25
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep6.130130.4768@uoft02.utoledo.edu> grx0435@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
|
||
|
>In article <1842@tuegate.tue.nl>, wsadjw@rw7.urc.tue.nl
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> Might I recommend that you find a good Astronomy 101 textbook
|
||
|
> and read up on Frank Drake's 1961 equation:
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> N = R * Fp * Ne * Fl * Fi * Fc * L
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> where N = # of civiliztions in our galaxy that can contact each other.
|
||
|
> R = stellar formation rate of our galaxy
|
||
|
> Fp = fraction of stars with planets
|
||
|
> Ne = avg # planets / solar system with sutable environmental
|
||
|
> conditions.
|
||
|
> Fl = fraction which develop life
|
||
|
> Fi = " " " intellegent life
|
||
|
> Fc = " " heve the ability and *choose* to communicate
|
||
|
> L = the average lifetime of a civiliztion
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
I appreciate this formula being posted, but is it strictly correct? Why
|
||
|
take the product of Fl, Fi and Fc? I think you should use Fl * (Fi|FL) *
|
||
|
(Fc|Fi|Fl) ... otherwise you are erroneously reducing the value of N.
|
||
|
[NB, (Fi|fl) is the fraction of those planets that develop life which also
|
||
|
have intelligent life].
|
||
|
|
||
|
daniel
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9149 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!fang!att!att!linac!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!lanl!jlg
|
||
|
From: jlg@beta.lanl.gov (Jim Giles)
|
||
|
Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep9.180944.24266@beta.lanl.gov>
|
||
|
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
|
||
|
References: <GERRY.91Sep9123814@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu>
|
||
|
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1991 18:09:44 GMT
|
||
|
|
||
|
> In article <1991Sep7.053041.5389@ohsu.edu> lawder@ohsu3b2.ohsu.EDU (Kathryn Lawder) writes:
|
||
|
> [...]
|
||
|
> Or maybe they also have advanced ethics on the order of a prime
|
||
|
> directive?
|
||
|
|
||
|
The 'prime directive' is not advanced ethics, it's a blatant sci-fi plot
|
||
|
restriction ploy. It's an unsubtle way of restricting the actions of
|
||
|
the advanced high-tech characters so that low-tech environments can
|
||
|
still be hazardous and uncertain. As a practical matter, there would be
|
||
|
no way for it to work as it does fictionally: how do you land on a
|
||
|
planet and just "blend in" with the culture there when you're an oxygen
|
||
|
breathing, water drinking, carbon-based life form and they're monoxide
|
||
|
breathing, ammonia drinking, silicone-based life forms (with, in
|
||
|
addition, a considerably different appearance from yours)?
|
||
|
|
||
|
J. Giles
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9227 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!ucsd!nosc!watop!north
|
||
|
From: north@watop.nosc.mil (Mark North)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop Circles/Ascended Masters/Sound
|
||
|
Keywords: Imagination is a great thing, it just *may* exceed skepticism!
|
||
|
Message-ID: <north.684469762@watop>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 02:29:22 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep7.193234.743@cbnewsc.cb.att.com>
|
||
|
Sender: nobody@nosc.NOSC.MIL
|
||
|
Distribution: usa
|
||
|
Lines: 13
|
||
|
|
||
|
jtg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
[a bunch of stuff missing a lot of spaces]
|
||
|
|
||
|
I read your post and want to comment on it.
|
||
|
Try hitting your space bar more frequently.
|
||
|
|
||
|
>Note: I am not a frequent reader of this newsgroup, if any one
|
||
|
>wishes to respond to this, please email me privately.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Surely you jest.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Mark
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9254 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
|
||
|
From: revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop Circles Solved (per CNN)
|
||
|
Message-ID: <kPH284w164w@cellar.UUCP>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 03:47:19 GMT
|
||
|
References: <rdippold.684428876@cancun>
|
||
|
Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS)
|
||
|
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
|
||
|
Lines: 24
|
||
|
|
||
|
rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
> john@anasaz.uucp (John Moore) writes:
|
||
|
> >CNN reported tonight that the mystery of crop circles in England may
|
||
|
> >have been solved. 2 gentlemen in their 60's reportedly demonstrated
|
||
|
> >their method for creating crop circles to a number of reporters. An
|
||
|
> >"expert" on crop circles (unnamed) admitted that the circles that they
|
||
|
> >created appeared genuine.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> >Anyone have any more info on this? You guys in the UK have some more
|
||
|
> >data?
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> Yes, apparently they are aliens.
|
||
|
> --
|
||
|
> Standard disclaimer applies, you legalistic hacks. | Ron Dippold
|
||
|
|
||
|
The current issue of Science has a neat bit on the crop circles, as
|
||
|
well. Joe bob sez check it out.
|
||
|
|
||
|
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
|
||
|
Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics
|
||
|
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
|
||
|
revpk@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
|
||
|
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9207 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!ai065
|
||
|
From: ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop Circles Solved (per CNN)
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep9.231038.18886@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 9 Sep 91 23:10:38 GMT
|
||
|
Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu
|
||
|
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
|
||
|
Lines: 24
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns1.ins.cwru.edu
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
The old men demonstrated how they used a board (about the size and shape
|
||
|
of a yardstick) with a single rope that is tied to both ends, looking
|
||
|
something like this:
|
||
|
|
||
|
____
|
||
|
/ \
|
||
|
( ) <---ROPE
|
||
|
======== <---BOARD
|
||
|
|
||
|
They would simply hold the rope in their hand and then walk with the board
|
||
|
under their foot. This quickly squashed large areas of crop. That's good
|
||
|
enough for me, but I still have two questions: What about the crops being
|
||
|
bent but not broke? Can this be done via this method? And, what about the
|
||
|
large areas were no circles were found the night before? Is this method fast
|
||
|
enough to produce large circles?
|
||
|
|
||
|
Tom
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
__ Make no bones about it, I'm an avid promoter of the Amiga computer. If
|
||
|
__/// you resent that because you were ripped off then that is your problem.
|
||
|
\XX/ :') "In every revolution.....there is one man...with a vision!" - Kirk
|
||
|
The Cryptozoology Information Network Want on our Email mailing list?
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9225 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!ucsd!qualcom.qualcomm.com!cancun!rdippold
|
||
|
From: rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop Circles Solved (per CNN)
|
||
|
Message-ID: <rdippold.684462827@cancun>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 00:33:47 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep9.231038.18886@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
|
||
|
Sender: news@qualcomm.com
|
||
|
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
|
||
|
Lines: 25
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: cancun.qualcomm.com
|
||
|
|
||
|
ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill) writes:
|
||
|
> The old men demonstrated how they used a board (about the size and shape
|
||
|
>of a yardstick) with a single rope that is tied to both ends, looking
|
||
|
>something like this:
|
||
|
|
||
|
> ____
|
||
|
> / \
|
||
|
> ( ) <---ROPE
|
||
|
> ======== <---BOARD
|
||
|
|
||
|
> They would simply hold the rope in their hand and then walk with the board
|
||
|
>under their foot. This quickly squashed large areas of crop. That's good
|
||
|
>enough for me, but I still have two questions: What about the crops being
|
||
|
>bent but not broke? Can this be done via this method? And, what about the
|
||
|
>large areas were no circles were found the night before? Is this method fast
|
||
|
>enough to produce large circles?
|
||
|
|
||
|
Yes and yes. The news report I heard today went further into detail.
|
||
|
They bent the crops instead of breaking them so that the farmer would
|
||
|
still be able to harvest the crops. So it wasn't destruction of
|
||
|
property. And yes, apparently with their method you can make the
|
||
|
circle quite big. Obviously, there's a limit, I don't know what it
|
||
|
is, but they had plenty of time to do it.
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
Standard disclaimer applies, you legalistic hacks. | Ron Dippold
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9217 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!ra!cee1
|
||
|
From: cee1@ra.MsState.Edu (The Chuckmeister)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <cee1.684465711@Ra.MsState.Edu>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 01:21:51 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>
|
||
|
Lines: 30
|
||
|
|
||
|
cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (Peter R. Cook) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
>In article <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>, aro@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby) writes...
|
||
|
>>Today's "Today" newspaper (a UK national tabloid) exposes corn circles
|
||
|
>>as a hoax. The story is the lead on page 1, and there is accompanying
|
||
|
>>information explaining how the hoax is carried out inside.
|
||
|
|
||
|
> I don't believe it. Explain the circles that have appeared
|
||
|
> in Asia, Canada, and America.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
It seems, if these people had done this for _TWENTY_ years, SOMMMMMEONE
|
||
|
would have seen it, with all the hundreds there. ANd what about all the
|
||
|
other shapes Diamonds, antennae, other geometric things.
|
||
|
|
||
|
About other nations with them, maybe toher people 'know' how to do them.
|
||
|
I just don't buy it. They would have been spotted long ago. And what about
|
||
|
the high E-fields in the centers?
|
||
|
|
||
|
This was just on an NBC News-minute thingie. I still am not convinced.
|
||
|
|
||
|
> Peter R. Cook | Disclaimer: "Quoth the Raven, eat my shorts man!"
|
||
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--
|
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|
|
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|
+------------------------------------------\\ -------------
|
||
|
| Internet: cee1@Ra.MsState.Edu \\ --------------------
|
||
|
| Bitnet: cee1@MSSTATE.BITNET >> Jesus Christ is Lord
|
||
|
| Real Identity: Charles Edward Evans // --------------------
|
||
|
+------------------------------------------// --------------
|
||
|
|
||
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|
||
|
Article 9210 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rphroy!caen!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!chook.cs.adelaide.edu.au!andrewd
|
||
|
From: andrewd@chook.cs.adelaide.edu.au (Andrew Dunstan)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <4521@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au>
|
||
|
Date: 9 Sep 91 23:38:59 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Sender: news@ucs.adelaide.edu.au
|
||
|
Reply-To: andrewd@chook.cs.adelaide.edu.au (Andrew Dunstan)
|
||
|
Lines: 19
|
||
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Nntp-Posting-Host: chook.ua.oz.au
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>, aro@aber.ac.uk (Andrew
|
||
|
Ormsby) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
|>
|
||
|
|> Further comment seems unecessary.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Not to me! I cannot refrain from gloating. Now, will all those who were
|
||
|
sucked in admit their absurd credulity?
|
||
|
|
||
|
(I bet they won't.)
|
||
|
|
||
|
#######################################################################
|
||
|
# Andrew Dunstan # There's nothing good or bad #
|
||
|
# Department of Computer Science # but thinking makes it so. #
|
||
|
# University of Adelaide # #
|
||
|
# South Australia # - Shakespeare #
|
||
|
# net: andrewd@cs.adelaide.edu.au # #
|
||
|
#######################################################################
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9252 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!medici!jbm
|
||
|
From: jbm@medici.trl.oz.au (Jacques Guy)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep9.234416.15686@trl.oz.au>
|
||
|
Date: 9 Sep 91 23:44:16 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Sender: news@trl.oz.au (USENET News System)
|
||
|
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
|
||
|
Lines: 3
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
For those of you who read French, crop circles were exposed for the hoax
|
||
|
they are in the October (or November, I'm not sure) 1990 of "Science et Vie".
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9241 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!unixhub!slacvm!doctorj
|
||
|
From: DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Jon J Thaler)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <91252.212352DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 05:23:52 GMT
|
||
|
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
|
||
|
Lines: 15
|
||
|
|
||
|
andrewd@chook.cs.adelaide.edu.au (Andrew Dunstan) says:
|
||
|
|
||
|
> aro@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
>> Further comment seems unecessary.
|
||
|
|
||
|
> Not to me! I cannot refrain from gloating. Now, will all those who were
|
||
|
> sucked in admit their absurd credulity?
|
||
|
|
||
|
> (I bet they won't.)
|
||
|
|
||
|
Of course not. They will complain that because *NOT ALL* of the circles
|
||
|
have been proven to be hoaxes, they obviously *MUST* be heralding the
|
||
|
imminent return of the King (I mean Elvis, of course...).
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9286 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Path: bilver!dona
|
||
|
From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen)
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
|
||
|
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1991 01:54:31 GMT
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep12.015431.23621@bilver.uucp>
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk> <4521@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au>
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <4521@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au> andrewd@chook.cs.adelaide.edu.au (Andrew Dunstan) writes:
|
||
|
>In article <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>, aro@aber.ac.uk (Andrew
|
||
|
>Ormsby) writes:
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>|>
|
||
|
>|> Further comment seems unecessary.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>Not to me! I cannot refrain from gloating. Now, will all those who were
|
||
|
>sucked in admit their absurd credulity?
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>(I bet they won't.)
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
># University of Adelaide # #
|
||
|
># South Australia # - Shakespeare #
|
||
|
># net: andrewd@cs.adelaide.edu.au # #
|
||
|
>#######################################################################
|
||
|
|
||
|
Why that's fine and dandy..but how do you explain and account for all
|
||
|
the circles that have been created in the UK for the last couple of
|
||
|
hundred years? (yes it has gone on that long)..and while you're
|
||
|
working up a "pat" answer for that..how about giving us the benefit
|
||
|
of you accumulated wisdom on explaining all the various crop circles
|
||
|
in other parts of the world.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Before you enjoy your (premature) gloating..best do your homework first.
|
||
|
|
||
|
A number of these circles are created each night..how do you explain the
|
||
|
method that the 2 old geezers use to span the whole of the UK to do _that_.
|
||
|
|
||
|
*plus* leap over to this continent and make circles in Canada and all over
|
||
|
the US.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Please explain to me what the "object" is in plate 50, page 92 of "Circular
|
||
|
Evidence" is to me. It sure *don't* look like 2 old guys with a "board".
|
||
|
|
||
|
Some of these "objects" have been videotaped buzzing over the newly created
|
||
|
circle. In fact, this tape was shown at the MUFON conference at Chicago,
|
||
|
complete with helicopters hovering *over* the object, watching it do it's
|
||
|
"thing".
|
||
|
|
||
|
I have absolutely no doubt that these 2 *could* hoax a credible looking
|
||
|
circle, however to lump the _whole phenomenon_ in with these 2 bozos
|
||
|
and claim that they hoaxed all the circles in the UK is in error.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Here's a simple enough test..the next few that are created in the UK..let's
|
||
|
see if fric and frac are anywhere near..no? they were in a pub the night
|
||
|
that an elaborate one is created? Tsk Tsk...
|
||
|
|
||
|
No doubt that some people are ingenious enough to hoax a circle..but
|
||
|
let's examine closely what _kind_ of circle they do produce and what
|
||
|
the evidence says by looking at all of it..do they press and swirl
|
||
|
the crop with the board and is it uniform with - no - breakage..no
|
||
|
damage,etc.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Sorry, but I just don't buy the explanation that's been given thus
|
||
|
far in all of this thread. Flimsy, verrryy flimsy.A Joke :-)
|
||
|
|
||
|
Don
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
-* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us.
|
||
|
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
|
||
|
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
|
||
|
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9296 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!cs.uoregon.edu!ogicse!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uw-beaver!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!xn.ll.mit.edu!xn!olson
|
||
|
From: olson@juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Steve Olson)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop Circles ... Solved! (??????)
|
||
|
Message-ID: <OLSON.91Sep10145740@goneril.juliet.ll.mit.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 21:57:40 GMT
|
||
|
References: <09099122.25.40PML3@lehigh.bitnet>
|
||
|
Sender: usenet@xn.ll.mit.edu
|
||
|
Organization: M.I.T. Lincoln Lab - Group 43
|
||
|
Lines: 35
|
||
|
In-Reply-To: PML3@NS.CC.LEHIGH.EDU's message of 10 Sep 91 03:26:08 GMT
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <09099122.25.40PML3@lehigh.bitnet> PML3@NS.CC.LEHIGH.EDU (King of Birds (AKA: Paul Lewis)) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
> Whether or not a plasma ball can crush wheat or not, I don't know, but
|
||
|
> there's no way in hell that one could create a design like that on
|
||
|
> the Led Zeppelin box set cover...
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> Paul Lewis | 'The love you take is equal to the love you make.' |
|
||
|
|
||
|
You're almost certainly correct on that score, the hoax explaination accounts
|
||
|
for both the very complex shapes and the concentration of the circles
|
||
|
in England. Another problem with the plasma ball hypothesis is that it
|
||
|
didn't explain why so many circles were in southern England.
|
||
|
|
||
|
I'm a bit puzzled, though, about the non-English circles. We are somewhat
|
||
|
at the mercy of the qualilty, or the lack thereof, of the reports on
|
||
|
non-English circles. Did they all have the bent-but-not-broken effect?
|
||
|
If so, how come everybody who guesses the secret immediately goes and and
|
||
|
hoaxes a circle himself instead of announcing his discovery? Its interesting
|
||
|
that some people, Randi comes to mind, came close to the truth without
|
||
|
hitting on the board trick.
|
||
|
|
||
|
I regard that it is possible (OK, slightly possible - OK, *very* slightly
|
||
|
possible) that a few of the simplest circles might have a natural origin.
|
||
|
After all, even the English hoaxers (BTW, great timing for the _The Economist_
|
||
|
article, huh?) were inspired by earlier incidents. Not that that really
|
||
|
proves anything, of course.
|
||
|
|
||
|
This plasma ball/ball lightning stuff sounds pretty cool, although we still
|
||
|
need an explaination on how these things could be created naturally.
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
-- Steve Olson
|
||
|
-- MIT Lincoln Laboratory
|
||
|
-- olson@juliet.ll.mit.edu
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9333 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!john
|
||
|
From: john@anasaz (John Moore)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep10.150517.19086@anasaz>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 15:05:17 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <rdippold.684452251@cancun>
|
||
|
Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, Az
|
||
|
Lines: 20
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <rdippold.684452251@cancun> rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold) writes:
|
||
|
]But, of course, this doesn't prove that all crop circles were hoaxes.
|
||
|
]After all, one of them _could_ have been done somewhere by an alien,
|
||
|
]that looked just like all the rest. How are you going to prove that
|
||
|
]it wasn't? I expect to see a lot of that argument coming up soon.
|
||
|
|
||
|
If I remember correctly, there is somewhat of a tradition of elegant hoaxes
|
||
|
in England. These gentlemen were continuing in that tradition.
|
||
|
|
||
|
There may also be natural crop circles. A fellow here at the office used to
|
||
|
be a wheat farmer in Kansas. He said that he occasionally would find circles
|
||
|
of downed wheat in his fields. He never thought much of it, since it seemed
|
||
|
to be a natural phenomenon. These observations were in the 50's and 60's in
|
||
|
Kansas.
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
John Moore HAM:NJ7E/CAP:T-Bird 381 ames!ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john
|
||
|
USnail: 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale,AZ 85253 anasaz!john@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
|
||
|
Voice: (602) 951-9326 john@anasaz.UUCP
|
||
|
Opinion: Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment!
|
||
|
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are all my fault, and no one elses.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9272 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!netnews.srv.cs.cmu.edu!gerry
|
||
|
From: gerry@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <GERRY.91Sep10111454@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 16:14:54 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <cee1.684465711@Ra.MsState.Edu>
|
||
|
Reply-To: gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston)
|
||
|
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
|
||
|
Lines: 20
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu
|
||
|
In-Reply-To: cee1@ra.MsState.Edu's message of 10 Sep 91 01:21:51 GMT
|
||
|
|
||
|
What I love about believers in the paranormal is that when you slap
|
||
|
them in the face with PROOF that their belief is unfounded, they just
|
||
|
ignore it. If Uri Gellar were to admit publically that he is a fraud,
|
||
|
I bet that there are several readers here who would claim:
|
||
|
-He is lying
|
||
|
-He actually uses PSI without knowing it.
|
||
|
|
||
|
WAKE UP PEOPLE. They admitted that the crop circles were a hoax.
|
||
|
They have shown quite convincingly that they are easy to produce.
|
||
|
This is overwhelming evidence. They is ABSOLUTELY NO evidence to
|
||
|
indicate that they were created otherwise.
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
Gerry Roston (gerry@cs.cmu.edu) | Statues of marble or brass will perish; and
|
||
|
Field Robotics Center, | statues made in imitation of them are not
|
||
|
Carnegie Mellon University | the same statues... But print and reprint a
|
||
|
Pittsburgh, PA, 15213 | thought a thousand times over, and that
|
||
|
(412) 268-6557 | with materials of any kind... the thought
|
||
|
| is eternally and identically the same
|
||
|
| thought in every case. Thomas Paine
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9320 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uflorida!terrell
|
||
|
From: terrell@astro (Dirk Terrell)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <31022@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 23:45:39 GMT
|
||
|
References: <cee1.684465711@Ra.MsState.Edu> <GERRY.91Sep10111454@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu> <12251@bunny.GTE.COM>
|
||
|
Sender: news@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU
|
||
|
Organization: Dept. of Astronomy, Univ. of Florida
|
||
|
Lines: 26
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <12251@bunny.GTE.COM> dir2@gte.com (Dean Radin) writes:
|
||
|
>In article <GERRY.91Sep10111454@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu>
|
||
|
>gerry@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes:
|
||
|
>> What I love about believers in the paranormal is that when you slap
|
||
|
>> them in the face with PROOF that their belief is unfounded, they just
|
||
|
>> ignore it.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>What Gerry (as well as many skeptics) doesn't seem to appreciate is that
|
||
|
>perseverance of belief is a two-edged sword.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>Social psychologists have very nicely shown that if you agree with an
|
||
|
>hypothesis, you will see new data that agrees with the hypothesis as
|
||
|
>valid and logical, but if the new data doesn't agree, then you'll see the
|
||
|
>data as wrong, not the hypothesis.
|
||
|
It's been a while since I looked at this, but a study by Glick and Snyder
|
||
|
(_The Humanist_, vol 46 pp. 20-25 (1986) showed that people skeptical of
|
||
|
astrology (I think) when shown data that supported astrology tended become
|
||
|
more receptive to the hypothesis. On the other hand, believers of astrology
|
||
|
when presented with evidence against astrology, did NOT change their
|
||
|
position. Hmmm.....
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
________________________________________________________________________
|
||
|
Dirk Terrell |
|
||
|
Department of Astronomy| "Einstein said there is no such thing as time."
|
||
|
University of Florida | Shirley McClaine
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9354 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!sdd.hp.com!usc!apple!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
|
||
|
From: Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <46868@cup.portal.com>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 06:16:26 GMT
|
||
|
References: <cee1.684465711@Ra.MsState.Edu>
|
||
|
<GERRY.91Sep10111454@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu> <12251@bunny.GTE.COM>
|
||
|
<31022@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU>
|
||
|
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
|
||
|
Lines: 9
|
||
|
|
||
|
I find it amusing and disappointing that the new standard of skeptics proof
|
||
|
is a tabloid. Wow! Sounds more like desperation than proof. Maybe it is
|
||
|
possible that two 60 year old men could make over 500 cc in Europe in one
|
||
|
season. Now here is where I would say spacecraft were involved carrying
|
||
|
the men around. But that leaves the fact that the sound above and below
|
||
|
human hearing has been detected and presented. So now skeptics run out
|
||
|
and buy some more tabliods to explain how dragging a board leaves a circle
|
||
|
with measurable sounds in it. Skeptics are a hoax! Tabloids are real.
|
||
|
Don Showen
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9338 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq
|
||
|
From: kdq@3D.com (Kevin D. Quitt)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.001958.26861@3D.com>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 00:19:58 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <cee1.684465711@Ra.MsState.Edu> <GERRY.91Sep10111454@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu>
|
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Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA
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Lines: 17
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In article <GERRY.91Sep10111454@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu> gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes:
|
||
|
>What I love about believers in the paranormal is that when you slap
|
||
|
>them in the face with PROOF that their belief is unfounded, they just
|
||
|
>ignore it. If Uri Gellar were to admit publically that he is a fraud,
|
||
|
>I bet that there are several readers here who would claim:
|
||
|
>-He is lying
|
||
|
>-He actually uses PSI without knowing it.
|
||
|
|
||
|
It's worse than that. A channeller was shown to be a fraud, and the
|
||
|
followers said "He's a fraud now, but before it was real". sigh.
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
_
|
||
|
Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%venus@sr.com
|
||
|
3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355
|
||
|
VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200
|
||
|
|
||
|
96.37% of all statistics are made up.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9366 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!graham
|
||
|
From: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.044249.14504@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 03:32:40 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <cee1.684465711@Ra.MsState.Edu> <GERRY.91Sep10111454@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu>
|
||
|
Sender: news@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System)
|
||
|
Reply-To: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu
|
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Distribution: na
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||
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Organization: Somewhere in Bloomington, Indiana
|
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Lines: 39
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4
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Nntp-Posting-Host: venus.iucf.indiana.edu
|
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|
|
||
|
In article <GERRY.91Sep10111454@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu>, gerry@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes...
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>WAKE UP PEOPLE. They admitted that the crop circles were a hoax.
|
||
|
|
||
|
No. Two elderly gentlemen _claim_ that they are the culprits.
|
||
|
|
||
|
>They have shown quite convincingly that they are easy to produce.
|
||
|
|
||
|
No. They have shown, quite convincingly that they are perfectly capable of
|
||
|
mashing plants flat to the ground.
|
||
|
|
||
|
>This is overwhelming evidence. They is ABSOLUTELY NO evidence to
|
||
|
>indicate that they were created otherwise.
|
||
|
|
||
|
No. It isn't event close to "overwhelming". It _is_ evidence that
|
||
|
these guys are capable of mashing a bunch of plants to make a poor excuse
|
||
|
of a duplicate of the patterns we've been seeing.
|
||
|
|
||
|
The bottom line? I'm skeptical not only of the claims of those that the
|
||
|
circles are from aliens or from a "plasma vortex", but also of the claims
|
||
|
from ANYONE that they are solely responsible for the patterns created
|
||
|
for the last decade.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Until these guys can show, on demand, that they can just as _accurately_
|
||
|
reproduce one of the _complex_ patterns, I shall remain a skeptic,
|
||
|
believing only that no explanation has yet been found.
|
||
|
|
||
|
>Gerry Roston (gerry@cs.cmu.edu) | Statues of marble or brass will perish; and
|
||
|
|
||
|
Jim Graham
|
||
|
|
||
|
-> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <-
|
||
|
Neither do they speak for me.
|
||
|
______________________________________________________________________
|
||
|
| Internet: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu |
|
||
|
| UUCP: dolmen!graham@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu |
|
||
|
| BBS: The PORTAL DOLMEN BBS/ParaNet ALPHA-GAMMA (sm) (9:1012/13) |
|
||
|
| (812) 334-0418, 24hrs. |
|
||
|
|______________________________________________________________________|
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9337 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq
|
||
|
From: kdq@3D.com (Kevin D. Quitt)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.001816.26771@3D.com>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 00:18:16 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <cee1.684465711@Ra.MsState.Edu>
|
||
|
Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA
|
||
|
Lines: 16
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <cee1.684465711@Ra.MsState.Edu> cee1@ra.MsState.Edu (The Chuckmeister) writes:
|
||
|
> About other nations with them, maybe toher people 'know' how to do them.
|
||
|
> I just don't buy it. They would have been spotted long ago. And what about
|
||
|
> the high E-fields in the centers?
|
||
|
|
||
|
What about them? (First I've heard of it). Are there also high E-fileds
|
||
|
in the center of circles known to be hoaxes?
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
_
|
||
|
Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%venus@sr.com
|
||
|
3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355
|
||
|
VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200
|
||
|
|
||
|
96.37% of all statistics are made up.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9327 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!mcsun!ukc!edcastle!egnr76
|
||
|
From: egnr76@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <12933@castle.ed.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 08:46:34 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>
|
||
|
Organization: Edinburgh University
|
||
|
Lines: 18
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (Peter R. Cook) writes:
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>In article <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>, aro@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby) writes...
|
||
|
>>Today's "Today" newspaper (a UK national tabloid) exposes corn circles
|
||
|
>>as a hoax. The story is the lead on page 1, and there is accompanying
|
||
|
>>information explaining how the hoax is carried out inside.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> I don't believe it. Explain the circles that have appeared
|
||
|
> in Asia, Canada, and America.
|
||
|
|
||
|
There was an article in Fortean Times recently which described apparent
|
||
|
crop circles appearing well before these two hoaxers were born. On the positive side,
|
||
|
revelation of the hoax will allow investigators to determine characteristics of this
|
||
|
type of hoax. However the circles that have appeared in Asia, Canada, and America
|
||
|
could just be explained by copy cat hoaxes (although this seems less likely in Asia)
|
||
|
|
||
|
I'm just keeping an open mind and listening to what goes on right now.
|
||
|
I can't make a final judgment without putting in a lot of work.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9331 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!mcsun!ukc!icdoc!syma!stevedc
|
||
|
From: stevedc@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Stephen Carter)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep10.122024.27230@syma.sussex.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 12:20:24 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>
|
||
|
Organization: University of Sussex
|
||
|
Lines: 23
|
||
|
|
||
|
From article <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, by cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (Peter R. Cook):
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> In article <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>, aro@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby) writes...
|
||
|
>>Today's "Today" newspaper (a UK national tabloid) exposes corn circles
|
||
|
>>as a hoax. The story is the lead on page 1, and there is accompanying
|
||
|
>>information explaining how the hoax is carried out inside.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> I don't believe it. Explain the circles that have appeared
|
||
|
> in Asia, Canada, and America.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Agreed.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Nor does it explain how (as reported on this morning's BBC Radio 4 -
|
||
|
ie serious- Farming Today program) up to 20 of this year's reported
|
||
|
300 (!) have happened on the same night.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Stephen Carter, Systems Manager, The Administration,
|
||
|
The University of Sussex, Falmer, Brighton BN1 9RH, UK
|
||
|
Tel: +44 273 678203 Fax: +44 273 678335 JANET: stevedc@uk.ac.sussex.syma
|
||
|
EARN/BITNET : stevedc@syma.sussex.ac.uk UUCP: stevedc@syma.uucp
|
||
|
ARPA/INTERNET: stevedc%syma.sussex.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9365 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!mcsun!cernvax!chx400!ugun2b!ugsc2a!cornell
|
||
|
From: cornell@sc2a.unige.ch
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep10.195128.545@sc2a.unige.ch>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 17:51:28 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>
|
||
|
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Organization: University of Geneva, Switzerland
|
||
|
Lines: 25
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (Peter R. Cook) writes:
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> In article <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>, aro@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby) writes...
|
||
|
>>Today's "Today" newspaper (a UK national tabloid) exposes corn circles
|
||
|
>>as a hoax. The story is the lead on page 1, and there is accompanying
|
||
|
>>information explaining how the hoax is carried out inside.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> I don't believe it. Explain the circles that have appeared
|
||
|
> in Asia, Canada, and America.
|
||
|
|
||
|
These men may well not have been the fakers of ALL the crop circles
|
||
|
worldwide, or even of all the ones they claim, but the fact that they managed
|
||
|
to prepare a crop circle that fooled an expert does prove that fraud is a quite
|
||
|
reasonable explanation of the phenomenon.
|
||
|
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> Peter R. Cook | Disclaimer: "Quoth the Raven, eat my shorts man!"
|
||
|
> Digital Equip. Corp. +--------------------------------------------------
|
||
|
> Marlboro, MA. | "1984 has past, forget about Big Brother, welcome
|
||
|
> 508-467-6936 | to the 90's where the government's your mother!"
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> ~ The opinions expressed above are the author's only and do not reflect the ~
|
||
|
> ~ opinions or anything else of Digital Equipment Corporation. ~
|
||
|
|
||
|
Stephen Cornell.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9292 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!bu.edu!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!drwho
|
||
|
From: drwho@wpi.WPI.EDU (Eric Ant Von Laudermann)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep10.193301.29315@wpi.WPI.EDU>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 19:33:01 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>
|
||
|
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
|
||
|
Lines: 17
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (Peter R. Cook) writes:
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>In article <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>, aro@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby) writes...
|
||
|
>>Today's "Today" newspaper (a UK national tabloid) exposes corn circles
|
||
|
>>as a hoax. The story is the lead on page 1, and there is accompanying
|
||
|
>>information explaining how the hoax is carried out inside.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> I don't believe it. Explain the circles that have appeared
|
||
|
> in Asia, Canada, and America.
|
||
|
|
||
|
When skeptics hear about something like this, they often say,
|
||
|
"I bet I could do that."
|
||
|
|
||
|
--E.V.L. (drwho@wpi.wpi.edu) # "I know! You can play with your magic
|
||
|
Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely # nose goblins!"
|
||
|
devastatingly true, except the bits # "I picked them myself..."
|
||
|
that are lies." --Douglas Adams # --Ren & Stimpy
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9335 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!john
|
||
|
From: john@anasaz (John Moore)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.210014.17234@anasaz>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 21:00:14 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <1991Sep10.234010.16001@bilver.uucp>
|
||
|
Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, Az
|
||
|
Lines: 29
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep10.234010.16001@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes:
|
||
|
]I also have pictures of a crop ringlet that was created in Arizona..I
|
||
|
]guess Bower and Chorley must also be the MIB to create those as well.
|
||
|
|
||
|
When and where, please? Enquiring Arizona minds want to know :-) Seriously,
|
||
|
I would be interested in hearing/seeing this information.
|
||
|
|
||
|
]While I do not doubt that some circles have been hoaxed, it is absolute
|
||
|
]rubbish to throw the baby out with the bath water, which is being suggested
|
||
|
]here.
|
||
|
|
||
|
It is clearly too soon for skeptics to conclude that the story is over. Anyone
|
||
|
taking this press report and instantly trumpeting a conclusion that all CC's
|
||
|
are hoaxes is making the same sort of illogical leap made by the proponents
|
||
|
of so much UFO/PSI/Conspiracy/??? nonsense. However, it would not surprise
|
||
|
me at all to find:
|
||
|
(1) all elaborate crop "circles" are hoaxes. I have not heard of ANY
|
||
|
non-circular ones before crop circles became a tabloid phenomenon.
|
||
|
(2) many simple crop circles are natural (I know someone who saw them
|
||
|
over 20 years ago in Kansas).
|
||
|
|
||
|
What we desperately need is to hear more details from folks over in
|
||
|
Jolly Old England!
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253 (602-951-9326)
|
||
|
ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john john@anasaz.UUCP anasaz!john@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
|
||
|
"It would be thought a hard government that should tax its people one tenth
|
||
|
part..." B. Franklin - Standard Disclaimer Applies -
|
||
|
- - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - -
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9332 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!mcsun!ukc!icdoc!syma!roys
|
||
|
From: roys@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Roy Stead)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Summary: Guardian report
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep10.125029.28558@syma.sussex.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 12:50:29 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Organization: University of Sussex
|
||
|
Lines: 50
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk> aro@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby) writes:
|
||
|
>Today's "Today" newspaper (a UK national tabloid) exposes corn circles
|
||
|
>as a hoax. The story is the lead on page 1, and there is accompanying
|
||
|
>information explaining how the hoax is carried out inside.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>The perpetrators are Doug Bower and Dave Chorley, both in their
|
||
|
>sixties. They've been creating circles for 13 years.
|
||
|
|
||
|
The story is reported in today's _Guardian_ (10/9/91). The _Guardian_ report,
|
||
|
by the way, describes Bower & Chorley as "the Wessex Skeptics, from
|
||
|
Southampton University," which appears to be an actual Skeptics society, since
|
||
|
later the report mentions: "Robin Allan, spokesman for the Wessex Skeptics,
|
||
|
said their circle was made by hand last month in two hours with a garden
|
||
|
roller." (This doesn't seem consistent with the _Today_ report as to how the
|
||
|
circles were made - and certainly doesn't suggest that the stalks would be
|
||
|
unbroken) However, "Experts judged [the circle] a textbook example, and 100
|
||
|
per cent genuine. Dowsers reported strong reactions, and a medium was carried
|
||
|
away complaining of nausea."
|
||
|
|
||
|
"Martin Pitt, the farmer who lent his land to the TV company [before whose
|
||
|
cameras a circle was created], was less certain that the hoax admission has
|
||
|
ended more than a decade of speculation. 'We only set out to prove a circle
|
||
|
could be man-made and the experts couldn'tc really tell one way or the other,
|
||
|
But it does no prove that there are not genuine ones as well,' he said."
|
||
|
|
||
|
"Four days later, another circle appeared on Mr Pitt's land without his
|
||
|
permission or knowledge."
|
||
|
|
||
|
A Mr Colin Andrews, director of field operations at the Centre for Crop Circle
|
||
|
Studies, said of the Wessex Skeptics's circle "Straight away we can see
|
||
|
everything we would expect to see in a hoax. The plants are broken, it is
|
||
|
extremely ragged and obviously a hoax. There is nothing here to impress us
|
||
|
except two very fit 60-year-olds."
|
||
|
|
||
|
"[Mr Andrews] calculated that of 300-plus circles that have appeared this
|
||
|
year, about 70 were hoaxes - but that did not explain how 20 circles a night,
|
||
|
at the season's peak, were appearing.
|
||
|
|
||
|
"Mr [Patrick] Delgado said the confession of the two hoaxers did not explain
|
||
|
what had been happening worldwide.
|
||
|
|
||
|
"'Yesterday there were circles found on a prairie in Canada. Have these two
|
||
|
guys been there with their board?'"
|
||
|
|
||
|
According to the _Guardian_, the TV report will be shown on Channel 4 (UK) as
|
||
|
part of the _Equinox_ series - next month.
|
||
|
|
||
|
All the best,
|
||
|
|
||
|
Roy
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9287 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Path: bilver!dona
|
||
|
From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen)
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
|
||
|
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1991 02:02:57 GMT
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep12.020257.23749@bilver.uucp>
|
||
|
References: <91254.063921DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <91254.063921DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Jon J Thaler) writes:
|
||
|
>dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) says:
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>> While I do not doubt that some circles have been hoaxed, it is absolute
|
||
|
>> rubbish to throw the baby out with the bath water, which is being suggested
|
||
|
>> here.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>I am going to claim my $10,000 from James Randi now. As you netters may
|
||
|
>recall, I predicted the existence of this post about two days ago. A
|
||
|
>clear case of precognition, if there ever was one.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Clearly the award should go to me for *knowing* that you would post
|
||
|
this response. :-)
|
||
|
|
||
|
A Skeptic? Are those the guys that think the world is flat and there
|
||
|
is no such thing as God? :-)
|
||
|
|
||
|
Don
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
-* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us.
|
||
|
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
|
||
|
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
|
||
|
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9311 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!icd.ab.com!iccgcc.decnet.ab.com!kambic
|
||
|
From: kambic@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (George X. Kambic, Allen-Bradley Inc.)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Executive Summary [was: Fractals...]
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep10.155734.5654@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 20:57:34 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep9.162645.6370@engage.pko.dec.com>
|
||
|
Lines: 33
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep9.162645.6370@engage.pko.dec.com>, stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes:
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
[...]
|
||
|
>>ever hope to do.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> Do you mean that you don't really want a "repeatable experiment"? That
|
||
|
> you'd prefer not to have proof to deal with? That all the talk was just
|
||
|
> that... talk?
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> I didn't insult you. I merely said that the crop symbols were the hard
|
||
|
> evidence you keep saying you require. No talk of "pity"... no mention of
|
||
|
> "silly"... nothing said of "misguided insistence" at all.
|
||
|
It is your opinion that the crop symbols are hard evidence. Lots of data
|
||
|
have been presented as hard evidence. How the crop circles qualify as hard
|
||
|
evidence is something that you had better make a case for. There are
|
||
|
a lot of arguments about "cannot be done by current technology, can't reach
|
||
|
them from the ground, etc.". All of which is not true for every circle. If
|
||
|
you have a group of circles that defy all current explanations, get the
|
||
|
data up.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> You know what? I don't think you really want hard evidence because you
|
||
|
> DON'T WANT proof that psi exists. It's your ego that drives you... not
|
||
|
> your intellect.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> None are so blind are those who WILL NOT see.
|
||
|
Whatever in the heck this means?
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
This is a joke, right? You are really a closet skeptic? (Or skeptical
|
||
|
of closets?)
|
||
|
|
||
|
GXKambic
|
||
|
stamped, flattended, standard disclaimer
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9468 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!wang!news
|
||
|
From: warren@worlds.com (Warren Burstein)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Fractals & Crop Circles
|
||
|
Message-ID: <629@vaccine.UUCP>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 13:47:53 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep6.172310.11183@engage.pko.dec.com>
|
||
|
Sender: news@wang.com
|
||
|
Organization: WorldWide Software
|
||
|
Lines: 15
|
||
|
|
||
|
stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
> Now it's your turn. What symbol would YOU like to see written in the fields?
|
||
|
|
||
|
> You try it now and maybe we can get a repeatable experiment going
|
||
|
> for all of those hard-science types.
|
||
|
|
||
|
A simple circle. As long as James Randi is standing in the center of
|
||
|
it. Just having the symbol show up somewhere and unobserved is an
|
||
|
invitation to fraud.
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
/|/-\/-\ The entire world Jerusalem
|
||
|
|__/__/_/ is a very strange carrot
|
||
|
|warren@ But the farmer
|
||
|
/ worlds.COM is not worried at all.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9432 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!srg!news
|
||
|
From: akerson@srg.uucp (Akerson)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop Circles and space aliens.
|
||
|
Keywords: crop-circles, aliens
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.220901.2238@srg.uucp>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 22:09:01 GMT
|
||
|
Expires: 10/01/91
|
||
|
References: <09099122.25.40PML3@lehigh.bitnet>
|
||
|
Sender: akerson
|
||
|
Followup-To: Re: crop-circles
|
||
|
Organization: SRG, Arinc Research Corp., Annapolis, MD
|
||
|
Lines: 27
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
After reading through the thread on crop circles, a
|
||
|
couple of questions :
|
||
|
|
||
|
Question 1:
|
||
|
There is no parallel discussion of similar supposedly
|
||
|
alien visitations to livestock raising concerns. Presumably
|
||
|
the same space aliens are responsible for both. If so why
|
||
|
do they leave impressions in the soil and kill livestock in
|
||
|
one case, while only flattening plants in the second.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Question 2:
|
||
|
If these circles are some kind of natural phenomenon,
|
||
|
then where are the reports of similar circles found
|
||
|
on moors, swamps, marshes, tundra, snow, parking lots, etc.
|
||
|
|
||
|
If there are not numerous "non-crop" circles, then natural
|
||
|
phenomenon seems to be ruled out.
|
||
|
|
||
|
If space aliens are to blame then there must be more than 1
|
||
|
kind of alien visitation device or species, or whatever.
|
||
|
|
||
|
-Pete
|
||
|
uunet!srg!akerson
|
||
|
akerson%srg@uunet.UUCP
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
- Pete
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9372 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!mcsun!ukc!ox-prg!oxuniv!ameij
|
||
|
From: ameij@vax.oxford.ac.uk
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop Circle Requests
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep10.132836.1767@vax.oxford.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 12:28:36 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep9.163348.6652@engage.pko.dec.com>
|
||
|
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
|
||
|
Lines: 8
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep9.163348.6652@engage.pko.dec.com>, stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes:
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> Fine! You don't want proof either. I guess you guys already know
|
||
|
> everything there is to know anyway.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> Goodbye
|
||
|
|
||
|
Do you have the phrase "The pot calling the kettle black" in the US?
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9391 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!lanl!cochiti.lanl.gov!jlg
|
||
|
From: jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (Jim Giles)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop Circle Requests
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.161155.24929@beta.lanl.gov>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 16:11:55 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep9.163348.6652@engage.pko.dec.com> <1991Sep10.132836.1767@vax.oxford.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Sender: news@beta.lanl.gov (Usenet News)
|
||
|
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
|
||
|
Lines: 9
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep10.132836.1767@vax.oxford.ac.uk>, ameij@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
|
||
|
|> [...]
|
||
|
|> Do you have the phrase "The pot calling the kettle black" in the US?
|
||
|
|
||
|
Yes, but it's probably grounds for expulsion on many university
|
||
|
campuses - it's not politically correct, you know, to use the word
|
||
|
`black' in a phrase which implies that it's a derogatory term.
|
||
|
|
||
|
J. Giles
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9406 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!samsung!mips!sdd.hp.com!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq
|
||
|
From: kdq@3D.com (Kevin D. Quitt)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop Circle Requests
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.192220.4921@3D.com>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 19:22:20 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep9.163348.6652@engage.pko.dec.com> <1991Sep10.132836.1767@vax.oxford.ac.uk> <1991Sep11.161155.24929@beta.lanl.gov>
|
||
|
Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA
|
||
|
Lines: 22
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep11.161155.24929@beta.lanl.gov> jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (Jim Giles) writes:
|
||
|
>In article <1991Sep10.132836.1767@vax.oxford.ac.uk>, ameij@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
|
||
|
>|> [...]
|
||
|
>|> Do you have the phrase "The pot calling the kettle black" in the US?
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>Yes, but it's probably grounds for expulsion on many university
|
||
|
>campuses - it's not politically correct, you know, to use the word
|
||
|
>`black' in a phrase which implies that it's a derogatory term.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Which gives rise to the urban legend (may or may not be true) about
|
||
|
a financial report that was run through a grammar checker that also made
|
||
|
political-correctness corrections; the phrase "in the black" was changed
|
||
|
to "in the afro-american".
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
_
|
||
|
Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%venus@sr.com
|
||
|
3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355
|
||
|
VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200
|
||
|
|
||
|
96.37% of all statistics are made up.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9470 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!wang!news
|
||
|
From: warren@worlds.com (Warren Burstein)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop Circle Requests
|
||
|
Message-ID: <630@vaccine.UUCP>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 13:52:25 GMT
|
||
|
References: <X0VV812w164w@cellar.UUCP>
|
||
|
Sender: news@wang.com
|
||
|
Organization: WorldWide Software
|
||
|
Lines: 12
|
||
|
|
||
|
revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
> Any suggestiona?
|
||
|
|
||
|
The Glyph of Bogosity
|
||
|
The Seal of the Suzerain of Good Housekeeping
|
||
|
The Sacred Chao
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
/|/-\/-\ The entire world Jerusalem
|
||
|
|__/__/_/ is a very strange carrot
|
||
|
|warren@ But the farmer
|
||
|
/ worlds.COM is not worried at all.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9383 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU!skywalker
|
||
|
From: skywalker@DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU (Timothy B. Reynolds)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Crop circles
|
||
|
Message-ID: <7480@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 14:51:33 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <rdippold.684452251@cancun> <1991Sep10.150517.19086@anasaz>
|
||
|
Sender: usenet@bcm.tmc.edu
|
||
|
Organization: X-Ray Crystallography / Howard Hughes Medical Institute
|
||
|
Lines: 14
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: dino.qci.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu
|
||
|
|
||
|
Someone please answer this for me.
|
||
|
|
||
|
If the crop circles are real, why don't we see them in the snow.
|
||
|
Snow would be the perfect medium for circles...
|
||
|
|
||
|
My guess is, because you can't hide footprints in the snow...
|
||
|
But I bet if we talk about enough we will see them this winter :-)
|
||
|
tim
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
Disclaimer: My opinions are my own, not HHMI's or Baylor College of Medicine
|
||
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
||
|
"And we stand and watch the gods and idols fall, as the blameless ones go
|
||
|
blindfold to the wall" Robin Trower....
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9399 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!umich!gumby!kzoo!k080093
|
||
|
From: k080093@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Josh N. Vander Berg)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.165912.1901@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 16:59:12 GMT
|
||
|
References: <rdippold.684452251@cancun> <1991Sep10.150517.19086@anasaz> <7480@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
|
||
|
Organization: Kalamazoo College
|
||
|
Lines: 16
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <7480@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> skywalker@DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU (Timothy B. Reynolds) writes:
|
||
|
>Someone please answer this for me.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>If the crop circles are real, why don't we see them in the snow.
|
||
|
>Snow would be the perfect medium for circles...
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>My guess is, because you can't hide footprints in the snow...
|
||
|
>But I bet if we talk about enough we will see them this winter :-)
|
||
|
>tim
|
||
|
|
||
|
Hmmmm... You just don't get it. The hyperdrives of the aliens don't work
|
||
|
in the cold air of the winter. Sheeez! I thought everyone knew this??
|
||
|
|
||
|
Of course, if we talk enough about it we will see some this winter. The
|
||
|
Aliens read this newsgroup, and at this VERY moment, are working feverishly
|
||
|
on a winter-hyperdrive.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9427 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!stanford.edu!CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!Neon.Stanford.EDU!amorgan
|
||
|
From: amorgan@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Crunchy Frog)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.201825.28659@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 20:18:25 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep10.150517.19086@anasaz> <7480@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <1991Sep11.165912.1901@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
|
||
|
Sender: news@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU
|
||
|
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University, Ca , USA
|
||
|
Lines: 30
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep11.165912.1901@hobbes.kzoo.edu> k080093@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Josh N. Vander Berg) writes:
|
||
|
>In article <7480@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> skywalker@DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU (Timothy B. Reynolds) writes:
|
||
|
>>Someone please answer this for me.
|
||
|
>>
|
||
|
>>If the crop circles are real, why don't we see them in the snow.
|
||
|
>>Snow would be the perfect medium for circles...
|
||
|
>>
|
||
|
>>My guess is, because you can't hide footprints in the snow...
|
||
|
>>But I bet if we talk about enough we will see them this winter :-)
|
||
|
>>tim
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>Hmmmm... You just don't get it. The hyperdrives of the aliens don't work
|
||
|
>in the cold air of the winter. Sheeez! I thought everyone knew this??
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>Of course, if we talk enough about it we will see some this winter. The
|
||
|
>Aliens read this newsgroup, and at this VERY moment, are working feverishly
|
||
|
>on a winter-hyperdrive.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Sheesh, you guys are sooooo out of it. EVERYONE knows that the hyperdrives
|
||
|
don't sieze up in cold air because they manage to go through outer space
|
||
|
where it is really cold just fine (and anyone who wishes to point out that
|
||
|
outer space isn't cold, it just makes anything in it cold can go away. Dont
|
||
|
confuse me with reality). The real reason is that the aliens attach religious
|
||
|
significance to the color white and refuse to desecrate it in any way. Which
|
||
|
brings up the following experiment: Get 300 fraternity guys to hold a party
|
||
|
in the snow. They will piss all over it and turn it yellow. THEN the aliens
|
||
|
will be able to create circles in it. See how simple science is when you
|
||
|
approach it in a rational manner?
|
||
|
|
||
|
Why not redirect this to sci.sceptic.stupid?
|
||
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||
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|
||
|
Article 9397 of sci.skeptic:
|
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|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!cs.albany.edu!sarah!newserve!bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu!kym
|
||
|
From: kym@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (R. Kym Horsell)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.172843.29036@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 17:28:43 GMT
|
||
|
References: <rdippold.684452251@cancun> <1991Sep10.150517.19086@anasaz> <7480@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
|
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Sender: usenet@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu (Mr News)
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Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton
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In article <7480@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> skywalker@DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU (Timothy B. Reynolds) writes:
|
||
|
>If the crop circles are real, why don't we see them in the snow.
|
||
|
>Snow would be the perfect medium for circles...
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>My guess is, because you can't hide footprints in the snow...
|
||
|
|
||
|
My guess would be -- because they would be called ``snow circles''
|
||
|
instead. ;-)
|
||
|
|
||
|
Or maybe the weather (snowing, cold, wind, and all that) might alter
|
||
|
whatever conditions might be required for their formation.
|
||
|
|
||
|
-kym
|
||
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|
||
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Article 9407 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!samsung!mips!sdd.hp.com!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq
|
||
|
From: kdq@3D.com (Kevin D. Quitt)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.192928.5011@3D.com>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 19:29:28 GMT
|
||
|
References: <cee1.684465711@Ra.MsState.Edu> <GERRY.91Sep10111454@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu> <1991Sep11.044249.14504@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>
|
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Distribution: na
|
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Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA
|
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Lines: 35
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|
||
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In article <1991Sep11.044249.14504@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu writes:
|
||
|
>In article <GERRY.91Sep10111454@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu>, gerry@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes...
|
||
|
>>They have shown quite convincingly that they are easy to produce.
|
||
|
>No. They have shown, quite convincingly that they are perfectly capable of
|
||
|
>mashing plants flat to the ground.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>>This is overwhelming evidence. They is ABSOLUTELY NO evidence to
|
||
|
>>indicate that they were created otherwise.
|
||
|
>No. It isn't event close to "overwhelming". It _is_ evidence that
|
||
|
>these guys are capable of mashing a bunch of plants to make a poor excuse
|
||
|
>of a duplicate of the patterns we've been seeing.
|
||
|
|
||
|
A poor excuse of a duplicate of the patterns we've been seeing? Is that
|
||
|
why "Corn circle expert Patrick Delgado [author of 'Circular Evidence' and
|
||
|
'The Latest Evidence'] admitted last night 'We have all been conned.
|
||
|
Thousands of lives are going to be wrecked over this'." ? Your comments
|
||
|
are wishful thinking unless you can prove they're different. The experts
|
||
|
who have seen both types say they're the same - where's *your* evidence?
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
>Until these guys can show, on demand, that they can just as _accurately_
|
||
|
>reproduce one of the _complex_ patterns, I shall remain a skeptic,
|
||
|
>believing only that no explanation has yet been found.
|
||
|
|
||
|
They did just that, showing how they made straight lines by using
|
||
|
primitive (but effective) surveying tools. Also, they didn't claim they'd
|
||
|
made all of them, just a lot of them.
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
_
|
||
|
Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%venus@sr.com
|
||
|
3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355
|
||
|
VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200
|
||
|
|
||
|
96.37% of all statistics are made up.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9387 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!mcsun!ukc!dcl-cs!gdt!aber!aberda!aro
|
||
|
From: aro@cs.aber.ac.uk (Andy Ormsby)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <ARO.91Sep11113022@zeus.cs.aber.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 11:30:22 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <cee1.684465711@Ra.MsState.Edu>
|
||
|
Sender: news@aber.ac.uk (USENET news service)
|
||
|
Reply-To: aro@cs.aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby)
|
||
|
Organization: Computer Science Dept. University College of Wales, Aberystwyth
|
||
|
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|
||
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In-Reply-To: cee1@ra.MsState.Edu's message of 10 Sep 91 01: 21:51 GMT
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: zeus
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <cee1.684465711@Ra.MsState.Edu> cee1@ra.MsState.Edu (The Chuckmeister) writes:
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> > I don't believe it. Explain the circles that have appeared
|
||
|
> > in Asia, Canada, and America.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> It seems, if these people had done this for _TWENTY_ years, SOMMMMMEONE
|
||
|
> would have seen it, with all the hundreds there. ANd what about all the
|
||
|
> other shapes Diamonds, antennae, other geometric things.
|
||
|
|
||
|
As my original posting stated, the British crop-circle creators claim
|
||
|
to have been making circles for thirteen years (13). They started off
|
||
|
by copying Australian circles that farmers over there created (thus
|
||
|
demonstrating the way in which the phenomenon spread from country to
|
||
|
country), but started developing more complex patterns later on. They
|
||
|
made very complex patterns, drawing them out on paper first.
|
||
|
|
||
|
> About other nations with them, maybe toher people 'know' how to do them.
|
||
|
> I just don't buy it. They would have been spotted long ago. And what about
|
||
|
> the high E-fields in the centers?
|
||
|
|
||
|
What high E-fields in the centres? In fact, I'm not sure what your
|
||
|
second paragraph is saying at all. Would you care to clarify?
|
||
|
|
||
|
> This was just on an NBC News-minute thingie. I still am not convinced.
|
||
|
|
||
|
...of what? I'm glad to hear that you are not prepared to believe
|
||
|
everything you hear, but I'd say that the article in Today (and the
|
||
|
one mentioned by another poster in "Science et Vie") seem to provide a
|
||
|
quantity of evidence for the hypothesis that crop circles (or at least
|
||
|
the complex patterns) are a hoax.
|
||
|
|
||
|
There may be other reasons for the appearence of crop circles. Some
|
||
|
might be created by space aliens from the planet Tharg, a few by
|
||
|
plasma and some more by a mystery weapon developed by the CIA and kept
|
||
|
secret as part of the well known worldwide conspiracy. However, I
|
||
|
think Occam's razor should be applied at this point.
|
||
|
|
||
|
What I am surprised not to yet have seen is a claim that the
|
||
|
perpetrators were actually channelers (unconciously, of course) for
|
||
|
someone or other :-) No doubt such a claim will appear here soon.
|
||
|
Without a shred of evidence of any kind, of course. :-(
|
||
|
|
||
|
Andy Ormsby
|
||
|
aro@cs.aber.ac.uk
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9408 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!samsung!mips!sdd.hp.com!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq
|
||
|
From: kdq@3D.com (Kevin D. Quitt)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.193141.5099@3D.com>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 19:31:41 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <12933@castle.ed.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA
|
||
|
Lines: 23
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <12933@castle.ed.ac.uk> egnr76@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko) writes:
|
||
|
>In article <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (Peter R. Cook) writes:
|
||
|
>>
|
||
|
>>In article <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>, aro@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby) writes...
|
||
|
>>>Today's "Today" newspaper (a UK national tabloid) exposes corn circles
|
||
|
>>>as a hoax. The story is the lead on page 1, and there is accompanying
|
||
|
>>>information explaining how the hoax is carried out inside.
|
||
|
>>
|
||
|
>> I don't believe it. Explain the circles that have appeared
|
||
|
>> in Asia, Canada, and America.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> There was an article in Fortean Times recently which described apparent
|
||
|
>crop circles appearing well before these two hoaxers were born.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Sure - they *said* they got the idea from Australian farmers who had
|
||
|
done it in the late 50's.
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
_
|
||
|
Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%venus@sr.com
|
||
|
3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355
|
||
|
VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200
|
||
|
|
||
|
96.37% of all statistics are made up.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9464 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!sarah!newserve!bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu!kym
|
||
|
From: kym@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (R. Kym Horsell)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.215438.873@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 21:54:38 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <12933@castle.ed.ac.uk> <1991Sep11.193141.5099@3D.com>
|
||
|
Sender: usenet@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu (Mr News)
|
||
|
Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton
|
||
|
Lines: 20
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep11.193141.5099@3D.com> kdq@3D.com (Kevin D. Quitt) writes:
|
||
|
>In article <12933@castle.ed.ac.uk> egnr76@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko) writes:
|
||
|
>> There was an article in Fortean Times recently which described apparent
|
||
|
>>crop circles appearing well before these two hoaxers were born.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> Sure - they *said* they got the idea from Australian farmers who had
|
||
|
>done it in the late 50's.
|
||
|
|
||
|
_Most_ interesting. I remember seeing such things in the Oz newspapers
|
||
|
some time ago. However, I seem to remember it was during the ***60's***
|
||
|
that the so-called `saucer nests' in Queensland were reported.
|
||
|
(But now that I think about it -- I _think_ there was something
|
||
|
of the same kind reported in or about Adelaide, SA).
|
||
|
|
||
|
Still strange that this could be kept a (relatively) good secret
|
||
|
for so long...
|
||
|
|
||
|
>Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%venus@sr.com
|
||
|
>3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355
|
||
|
>VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9392 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!rutgers!cmcl2!adm!amsaa-cleo!johnson
|
||
|
From: johnson@amsaa-cleo.brl.mil (Don Johnson)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <4181@amsaa-cleo.brl.mil>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 15:14:09 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <1991Sep10.122024.27230@syma.sussex.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Organization: AMSAA/GWD, APG, MD 21005
|
||
|
Lines: 16
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep10.122024.27230@syma.sussex.ac.uk> stevedc@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Stephen Carter) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
>Nor does it explain how (as reported on this morning's BBC Radio 4 -
|
||
|
>ie serious- Farming Today program) up to 20 of this year's reported
|
||
|
>300 (!) have happened on the same night.
|
||
|
|
||
|
>Stephen Carter, Systems Manager, The Administration,
|
||
|
|
||
|
I find it hard to believe 20 crop circles appeared in one night. Please
|
||
|
list the locations, dates and discoverers.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Or maybe this is an attempt at misdirection?
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
W. Donald Johnson
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9415 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!mips!samsung!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!silver!sizemor
|
||
|
From: sizemor@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Jim Sizemore (alias Gunga Jim))
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.182140.460@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 18:21:40 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>
|
||
|
Sender: news@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System)
|
||
|
Organization: Indiana University
|
||
|
Lines: 28
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: silver.ucs.indiana.edu
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (Peter R. Cook) writes:
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>In article <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>, aro@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby) writes...
|
||
|
>>Today's "Today" newspaper (a UK national tabloid) exposes corn circles
|
||
|
>>as a hoax. The story is the lead on page 1, and there is accompanying
|
||
|
>>information explaining how the hoax is carried out inside.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> I don't believe it. Explain the circles that have appeared
|
||
|
> in Asia, Canada, and America.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> Peter R. Cook | Disclaimer: "Quoth the Raven, eat my shorts man!"
|
||
|
> Digital Equip. Corp. +--------------------------------------------------
|
||
|
> Marlboro, MA. | "1984 has past, forget about Big Brother, welcome
|
||
|
> 508-467-6936 | to the 90's where the government's your mother!"
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>~ The opinions expressed above are the author's only and do not reflect the ~
|
||
|
>~ opinions or anything else of Digital Equipment Corporation. ~
|
||
|
|
||
|
How about Asian, Canadian and American pranksters doing the same thing
|
||
|
as two blokes in England?
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
#################################################################
|
||
|
# Gunga Jim # If only that damn buzzing #
|
||
|
# (alias Jim Sizemore) # in my head would stop! #
|
||
|
# Wanted in 6 states, unwanted # _______________ #
|
||
|
# in the other 44. # IU doesn't even know I do this #
|
||
|
# sizemor@ucs.indiana.edu # let alone speak for them. #
|
||
|
#################################################################
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9379 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!ogicse!orstcs!jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU!woodc
|
||
|
From: woodc@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU (Major Havok)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.132945.2362@usenet@CS.ORST.EDU>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 13:29:45 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Sender: @usenet@CS.ORST.EDU
|
||
|
Organization: Oregon State University, CS Dept.
|
||
|
Lines: 26
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: jacobs.cs.orst.edu
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk> aro@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby) writes:
|
||
|
>Today's "Today" newspaper (a UK national tabloid) exposes corn circles
|
||
|
>as a hoax. The story is the lead on page 1, and there is accompanying
|
||
|
>information explaining how the hoax is carried out inside.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>The perpetrators are Doug Bower and Dave Chorley, both in their
|
||
|
>sixties. They've been creating circles for 13 years.
|
||
|
|
||
|
I have a hard time believing this for a few reasons...
|
||
|
|
||
|
1) I find it hard to believe that two men in their 60's would be capable
|
||
|
of (or would even want to for that matter) finding the time to make hundreds
|
||
|
or thousands of corn field designs. (Not much of a social life that these
|
||
|
guys have, huh?)
|
||
|
|
||
|
2) Even if they could produce that many designs, I find it hard to belief
|
||
|
no one has caught them in the act.
|
||
|
|
||
|
3) This still doesn't explain the mysterious high pitched noise when you
|
||
|
take a microphone just inside of the crop circles and how the sound
|
||
|
disapears immediately after you step outside of the circle.
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
|
||
|
| Chris Wood | "If you can't convince them, confuse them." |
|
||
|
| woodc@jacobs.cs.orst.edu | -unknown |
|
||
|
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9398 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!cs.albany.edu!sarah!newserve!bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu!kym
|
||
|
From: kym@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (R. Kym Horsell)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.173304.29118@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 17:33:04 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk> <1991Sep11.132945.2362@usenet@CS.ORST.EDU> <GERRY.91Sep11121525@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu>
|
||
|
Sender: usenet@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu (Mr News)
|
||
|
Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton
|
||
|
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Nntp-Posting-Host: bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu
|
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||
|
In article <GERRY.91Sep11121525@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu> gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes:
|
||
|
>The point is this, these guys showed a technique they claim to have
|
||
|
>been using for many years to create these circles. Now, does anyone
|
||
|
>honestly think that they are the only two people on the entire Earth
|
||
|
>who are capable of concocting this scheme? Has noone else ever heard
|
||
|
>of copy-cats?
|
||
|
|
||
|
Yes, I guess I have.
|
||
|
|
||
|
During the early part of this century various people tried to pass
|
||
|
off all sorts of stuff as dinosaur remains. Kinda got in the way
|
||
|
of serious research.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Just that good ol' human lust for notoriety, I guess.
|
||
|
|
||
|
-kym
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9410 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!samsung!mips!sdd.hp.com!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq
|
||
|
From: kdq@3D.com (Kevin D. Quitt)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.193953.5294@3D.com>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 19:39:53 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk> <1991Sep11.132945.2362@usenet@CS.ORST.EDU>
|
||
|
Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA
|
||
|
Lines: 29
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep11.132945.2362@usenet@CS.ORST.EDU> woodc@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU (Major Havok) writes:
|
||
|
>1) I find it hard to believe that two men in their 60's would be capable
|
||
|
>of (or would even want to for that matter) finding the time to make hundreds
|
||
|
>or thousands of corn field designs. (Not much of a social life that these
|
||
|
>guys have, huh?)
|
||
|
|
||
|
Once again, they didn't claim they'd made all of them, just that *they
|
||
|
as a team* had been doing it for 13 years.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
>2) Even if they could produce that many designs, I find it hard to belief
|
||
|
>no one has caught them in the act.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Why? Who watches a corn field?
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
>3) This still doesn't explain the mysterious high pitched noise when you
|
||
|
>take a microphone just inside of the crop circles and how the sound
|
||
|
>disapears immediately after you step outside of the circle.
|
||
|
|
||
|
It doesn't have to. Do you get the same effect from the circles
|
||
|
that these guys made?
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
_
|
||
|
Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%venus@sr.com
|
||
|
3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355
|
||
|
VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200
|
||
|
|
||
|
96.37% of all statistics are made up.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9440 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!convex!quattro
|
||
|
From: quattro@convex.com (Marc Quattromani)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.222627.27338@convex.com>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 22:26:27 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk> <1991Sep11.132945.2362@usenet@CS.ORST.EDU> <1991Sep11.193953.5294@3D.com>
|
||
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|
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Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
|
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|
Lines: 20
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep11.193953.5294@3D.com> kdq@3D.com (Kevin D. Quitt) writes:
|
||
|
>In article <1991Sep11.132945.2362@usenet@CS.ORST.EDU> woodc@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU (Major Havok) writes:
|
||
|
>>2) Even if they could produce that many designs, I find it hard to belief
|
||
|
>>no one has caught them in the act.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> Why? Who watches a corn field?
|
||
|
|
||
|
This whole crop circle thing is fairly new to me but one has to
|
||
|
wonder, if it was so hard for two men to do the hoax unobserved, why
|
||
|
is it so easy for aliens to create the circles unobserved.
|
||
|
|
||
|
One could argue that the men would take much longer to create such
|
||
|
circles and therefore have more opportunity to be observed. On the
|
||
|
otherhand, one could argue that alien spacecraft ought to be easier to
|
||
|
spot and more noticeable than two hum-drum earthlings.
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
Marc Quattromani Convex Computer Corporation
|
||
|
Richardson, Texas
|
||
|
quattro@convex.COM
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9431 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Xref: bilver sci.skeptic:9431 alt.paranormal:2756 alt.alien.visitors:1641
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!craigb
|
||
|
From: craigb@woofer.austin.ibm.com (Craig Becker)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <10939@awdprime.UUCP>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 17:16:51 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep11.064510.20415@newshost.anu.edu.au> <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Sender: news@awdprime.UUCP
|
||
|
Reply-To: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com
|
||
|
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
|
||
|
Lines: 17
|
||
|
|
||
|
Well, this may be rather naive of me, but if these two guys have confessed to
|
||
|
being the culprits, and assuming that they aren't going to do it anymore, I'd
|
||
|
think that there number of crop circle incidents in the area would take a
|
||
|
nosedive...granted, others might attempt to 'take over the mantle', as it
|
||
|
were, but I kinda get the idea these jokers were fanatics.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Craig
|
||
|
|
||
|
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
||
|
-- "I mean, foreign agent or no, Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
|
||
|
-- I've done good work for the Internet: craigb@ot.vnet.ibm.com --
|
||
|
-- city. I never compromised my Austin: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com --
|
||
|
-- integrity, except a few times." VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
|
||
|
---------------------- Lt. Okking -------------------------------------------
|
||
|
-- off 808/1K-020 zip 3008 ph (512) 823-1756 tl 793-1756 hm (512) 346-5397 --
|
||
|
-- IBM Personal Systems Programming, 11400 Burnet Road, Austin, TX, 78759 --
|
||
|
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9423 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!dali.cs.montana.edu!caen!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!graham
|
||
|
From: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.195234.5799@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 18:49:06 GMT
|
||
|
References: <91254.063921DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
|
||
|
Sender: news@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System)
|
||
|
Reply-To: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu
|
||
|
Distribution: na
|
||
|
Organization: Somewhere in Bloomington, Indiana
|
||
|
Lines: 24
|
||
|
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: venus.iucf.indiana.edu
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <91254.063921DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Jon J Thaler) writes...
|
||
|
>dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) says:
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>> While I do not doubt that some circles have been hoaxed, it is absolute
|
||
|
>> rubbish to throw the baby out with the bath water, which is being suggested
|
||
|
>> here.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>I am going to claim my $10,000 from James Randi now. As you netters may
|
||
|
>recall, I predicted the existence of this post about two days ago. A
|
||
|
>clear case of precognition, if there ever was one.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Yes, but, is it true?
|
||
|
|
||
|
Jim
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
-> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <-
|
||
|
Neither do they speak for me.
|
||
|
______________________________________________________________________
|
||
|
| Internet: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu |
|
||
|
| UUCP: dolmen!graham@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu |
|
||
|
| BBS: The PORTAL DOLMEN BBS/ParaNet ALPHA-GAMMA (sm) (9:1012/13) |
|
||
|
| (812) 334-0418, 24hrs. |
|
||
|
|______________________________________________________________________|
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9448 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!ai065
|
||
|
From: ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep12.041631.11276@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 12 Sep 91 04:16:31 GMT
|
||
|
Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu
|
||
|
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
|
||
|
Lines: 29
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns2.ins.cwru.edu
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Many of the "skeptics" on this SIG are too quick to debunk crop circles.
|
||
|
There are several questions that still need to be met.
|
||
|
|
||
|
1- Is this method fast enough to create crop circles over night? If so, how
|
||
|
many people will it take to produce some of the "unhoaxed" circles?
|
||
|
[Above should read- how many people will it take to produce one of these
|
||
|
"unhoaxed" circles in one night?]
|
||
|
|
||
|
2- Has the "bending but not breaking" effect been proven to exist in crop
|
||
|
circles? If so, is the method able to produce such an effect?
|
||
|
|
||
|
3- Based on the amount of people needed to produce your average size crop
|
||
|
circle, how many people would it take to produce the amount of circles made
|
||
|
in one month or year?
|
||
|
|
||
|
4- Are there any other characteristics of crop circles that this method is
|
||
|
unable to produce? If so, are there any other known methods which can?
|
||
|
|
||
|
If your simply going to reach a conclusion without putting the "solution" to
|
||
|
a few tests then your no longer a skeptic...
|
||
|
|
||
|
Tom
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
__ Make no bones about it, I'm an avid promoter of the Amiga computer. If
|
||
|
__/// you resent that because you were ripped off then that is your problem.
|
||
|
\XX/ :') "In every revolution.....there is one man...with a vision!" - Kirk
|
||
|
The Cryptozoology Information Network Want on our Email mailing list?
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9433 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!rpi!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq
|
||
|
From: kdq@3D.com (Kevin D. Quitt)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep12.212757.18818@3D.com>
|
||
|
Date: 12 Sep 91 21:27:57 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep12.041631.11276@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
|
||
|
Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA
|
||
|
Lines: 42
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep12.041631.11276@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill) writes:
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
> Many of the "skeptics" on this SIG are too quick to debunk crop circles.
|
||
|
>There are several questions that still need to be met.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>1- Is this method fast enough to create crop circles over night? If so, how
|
||
|
>many people will it take to produce some of the "unhoaxed" circles?
|
||
|
>[Above should read- how many people will it take to produce one of these
|
||
|
>"unhoaxed" circles in one night?]
|
||
|
|
||
|
Depends on the size of the circle, but based on some of my
|
||
|
experiments (based on the reports) I could make a 40' circle in about an
|
||
|
hour. I've also designed a widget that would let me fold down the crops
|
||
|
as fast as I could walk.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
>2- Has the "bending but not breaking" effect been proven to exist in crop
|
||
|
>circles? If so, is the method able to produce such an effect?
|
||
|
|
||
|
Just depends on hjow much weight is applied and how high up on the plant.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
>3- Based on the amount of people needed to produce your average size crop
|
||
|
>circle, how many people would it take to produce the amount of circles made
|
||
|
>in one month or year?
|
||
|
|
||
|
("number", "not amount"). I suspect I could do three of four a night
|
||
|
without sweating.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
>4- Are there any other characteristics of crop circles that this method is
|
||
|
>unable to produce? If so, are there any other known methods which can?
|
||
|
|
||
|
Well, it was apparently announced as genuine by a "crop-circle
|
||
|
expert". What characteristics do the mysterious crop circles have?
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
_
|
||
|
Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%venus@sr.com
|
||
|
3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355
|
||
|
VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200
|
||
|
|
||
|
96.37% of all statistics are made up.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9456 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!ai065
|
||
|
From: ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep12.044438.14371@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 12 Sep 91 04:44:38 GMT
|
||
|
Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu
|
||
|
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
|
||
|
Lines: 13
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns1.ins.cwru.edu
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Just a small observation...If you are a "skeptic", shouldn't you be a bit
|
||
|
skeptical about a board and a rope being the answer to a mystery that has
|
||
|
been on a good many "experts" minds? I only ask that we submit this "answer"
|
||
|
to the same thought process that made some of us skeptics in the fist place.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Tom
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
__ Make no bones about it, I'm an avid promoter of the Amiga computer. If
|
||
|
__/// you resent that because you were ripped off then that is your problem.
|
||
|
\XX/ :') "In every revolution.....there is one man...with a vision!" - Kirk
|
||
|
The Cryptozoology Information Network Want on our Email mailing list?
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9491 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!ogicse!ucsd!qualcom.qualcomm.com!cancun!rdippold
|
||
|
From: rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: crop circle confession a hoax?
|
||
|
Message-ID: <rdippold.684617529@cancun>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 19:32:09 GMT
|
||
|
References: <jms.6233@vanth.UUCP>
|
||
|
Sender: news@qualcomm.com
|
||
|
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
|
||
|
Lines: 23
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: cancun.qualcomm.com
|
||
|
|
||
|
jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes:
|
||
|
>However, this is where any resemblance to sanity ends, in my opinion. The
|
||
|
>article also says that the hoaxers "gave detailed information about how
|
||
|
>they planned and executed each design since the late 1970s." Either they
|
||
|
>only meant the most elaborate and sensational designs and neglected to say
|
||
|
>so, or the claim is stretching credibility. We're talking about a *lot* of
|
||
|
>circles for men in their 60s. Furthermore, the newspaper makes the claim
|
||
|
|
||
|
The important thing is not that we have two people who have been doing
|
||
|
this... they obviously could not have done them all. The important
|
||
|
thing is that we have shown that there is a perfectly normal
|
||
|
explaination for crop circles. The claims we've had are that such
|
||
|
things are too round, symetrical, too big, etc. to be made by humans,
|
||
|
and that the crop circle experts would be able to tell if it was made
|
||
|
by humans.
|
||
|
|
||
|
To which this proves: Bullshit! The crop circle experts are just as
|
||
|
easily hoaxed as the next person. People can make the crop circles
|
||
|
attributed to aliens. There is no need to involve a mysterious
|
||
|
unknown outside source to account for them.
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
Standard disclaimer applies, you legalistic hacks. | Ron Dippold
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9441 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!al463
|
||
|
From: al463@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher A. Joseph)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Dave and Doug's crop circle hoax
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.230937.3041@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 23:09:37 GMT
|
||
|
Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu
|
||
|
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
|
||
|
Lines: 18
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns1.ins.cwru.edu
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
This is REALLY unrelated to anything resembling seriousness but,
|
||
|
|
||
|
wouldnt it be cool if Frank Bartyles and Ed James made a commercial
|
||
|
for their most excellent wine coolers, and in it they were making a
|
||
|
crop circle? Just a silly thought. :-)
|
||
|
|
||
|
That is about as much credibility as I give to Dave and Doug. All you
|
||
|
skeptics ACCEPTED their story TOO EASILY. Until I've done a circle
|
||
|
myself, I believe no one. Nuff said.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Chris
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
Christopher A. Joseph (Chris)|"You can go wrong by being too skeptical
|
||
|
al463@cleveland.freenet.edu |as readily as by being too trusting"L.L.
|
||
|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
||
|
"!ELUR sebboH dna nivlaC" << Subliminal Message | FNORD!| Praise "Bob"
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9511 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!van-bc!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
|
||
|
From: spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Fractals & Crop Circles
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep13.213205.12963@mprgate.mpr.ca>
|
||
|
Date: 13 Sep 91 21:32:05 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep6.172310.11183@engage.pko.dec.com> <629@vaccine.UUCP>
|
||
|
Sender: news@mprgate.mpr.ca
|
||
|
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
|
||
|
Lines: 28
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <629@vaccine.UUCP>, warren@worlds.com (Warren Burstein) writes:
|
||
|
|> stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes:
|
||
|
|>
|
||
|
|> > Now it's your turn. What symbol would YOU like to see written in the fields?
|
||
|
|>
|
||
|
|> > You try it now and maybe we can get a repeatable experiment going
|
||
|
|> > for all of those hard-science types.
|
||
|
|>
|
||
|
|> A simple circle. As long as James Randi is standing in the center of
|
||
|
|> it. Just having the symbol show up somewhere and unobserved is an
|
||
|
|> invitation to fraud.
|
||
|
|> --
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
I've got it.
|
||
|
|
||
|
I would like to a 100 foot wheat field representation of James
|
||
|
Randi's face. Sticking his tongue out.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
That would get both "sides" nervous.
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
***********************************************************************
|
||
|
| Leonard E. Spani | //!?\\ | (disclaimer-p) |
|
||
|
| spani@tartarus.mpr.ca | \\?!// | t |
|
||
|
***********************************************************************
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9497 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!fang!att!att!news.cs.indiana.edu!spool.mu.edu!uunet!mcsun!ukc!pyrltd!root44!steve
|
||
|
From: steve@root.co.uk (Steve Ratcliffe)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop Circles ... Solved! (??????)
|
||
|
Message-ID: <3073@root44.co.uk>
|
||
|
Date: 10 Sep 91 19:43:06 GMT
|
||
|
Article-I.D.: root44.3073
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep6.230553.23359@3D.com> <1991Sep9.123055.20860@syma.sussex.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Distribution: sci
|
||
|
Organization: UniSoft Ltd., London, England
|
||
|
Lines: 42
|
||
|
|
||
|
In <1991Sep9.123055.20860@syma.sussex.ac.uk> stevedc@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Stephen Carter) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
>I pass on what I heard on the radio (BBC Radio 4) this morning (9th
|
||
|
>Sept). Others may have better accounts...
|
||
|
|
||
|
>A UK tabloid (Today?) has been running the story that two oldish
|
||
|
>blokes have owned up to creating all of the Crop Circles. Apparently
|
||
|
>they claim to have used boards on ropes (hence the bending at ground
|
||
|
>level).
|
||
|
|
||
|
Douglas Bower and David Chorley, both in their 60s.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Yes, the story appeared in "Today" on 9 Sept, with a followup article
|
||
|
today (10th). The equipment they claim to have used was a piece of
|
||
|
wood 4ft long with rope reins. You hold the reins and put one foot on
|
||
|
the stick and push down on the corn.
|
||
|
|
||
|
They claim to have started making the circles in the summer of
|
||
|
1978.
|
||
|
|
||
|
>They 'created' a Circle to order, and the newspaper then got it looked
|
||
|
>at by an 'expert' who apparently verified that it could not have been
|
||
|
>made by man-made means.
|
||
|
|
||
|
I'll try to describe the demonstration "circle" that they made for the
|
||
|
paper: Two large filled circles with a (8ft wide) line joining them.
|
||
|
The connecting line forms the diameter of two concentric rings. From
|
||
|
the smaller filled circle there are two "antennae" (a line jutting out
|
||
|
of the circle with a small circle on the end) From the other circle
|
||
|
there is a "ladder" and there is a semi-circlular ring with the ladder
|
||
|
as its diagonal (roughly).
|
||
|
|
||
|
The 'expert' was Pat Delgado (author of "Circular Evidence") who is reported
|
||
|
as saying: "In no way could this have been a hoax".
|
||
|
|
||
|
>So, who is hoaxing who? Are these two hoaxing the Circle students, or
|
||
|
>is the report that that they are, itself a hoax. :-)
|
||
|
|
||
|
>I attach NO value judgement to this report.
|
||
|
|
||
|
There were few details in the report so it is difficult to judge the
|
||
|
claims. I may followup with some opinions when I have the time.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9517 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!rpi!usc!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!gtx!al
|
||
|
From: al@gtx.com (Alan Filipski)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1625@gtx.com>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 21:15:08 GMT
|
||
|
References: <cee1.684465711@Ra.MsState.Edu> <GERRY.91Sep10111454@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu> <12251@bunny.GTE.COM> <31022@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> <46868@cup.portal.com>
|
||
|
Reply-To: al@gtx.UUCP (Alan Filipski)
|
||
|
Organization: GTX Corporation, Phoenix
|
||
|
Lines: 19
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <46868@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes:
|
||
|
>I find it amusing and disappointing that the new standard of skeptics proof
|
||
|
>is a tabloid. Wow! Sounds more like desperation than proof. Maybe it is
|
||
|
|
||
|
Again, the two guys are *proof* of nothing, except that the circles
|
||
|
are easily hoaxed and that the self-appointed "experts" are fools.
|
||
|
This makes the hoax hypothesis much more plausible than some
|
||
|
unspecified bullshit about UFO's.
|
||
|
|
||
|
If anyone said (which I doubt) that all crop circles were made by these
|
||
|
two, or there is *proof* that they are all hoaxes, then they spoke
|
||
|
incorrectly
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
||
|
( Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 8836 N. 23rd Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona 85021, USA )
|
||
|
( {decvax,hplabs,uunet!amdahl,nsc}!sun!sunburn!gtx!al (602)870-1696 )
|
||
|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9495 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!uunet!mcsun!ukc!pyrltd!root44!steve
|
||
|
From: steve@root.co.uk (Steve Ratcliffe)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <3103@root44.co.uk>
|
||
|
Date: 13 Sep 91 15:26:18 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <1991Sep10.122024.27230@syma.sussex.ac.uk> <1991Sep12.182906.2086@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
|
||
|
Organization: UniSoft Ltd., London, England
|
||
|
Lines: 15
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
In <1991Sep12.182906.2086@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> bmason@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Bruce Mason) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
)coincides with the postulated movements of the two hoaxers. The earliest
|
||
|
)published photo of an English crop circle is, I believe, in _Circular Evidence_
|
||
|
)from 1976. So, we can truthfully say that the hoaxers' accounts match the
|
||
|
|
||
|
They claimed to have started in 1978, so this point is not consistent.
|
||
|
|
||
|
)hoax theory. There are, however, some things I would like to see. A
|
||
|
)photograph of the circle they made in Australia, ditto Canada and the rest
|
||
|
|
||
|
They have not to my knowledge claimed to have constructed a circle in
|
||
|
Australia, only that they got the idea from there (They said that some
|
||
|
farmers put cicles in their fields as a joke).
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9409 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!samsung!mips!sdd.hp.com!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq
|
||
|
From: kdq@3D.com (Kevin D. Quitt)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.193550.5191@3D.com>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 19:35:50 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <1991Sep10.234010.16001@bilver.uucp>
|
||
|
Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA
|
||
|
Lines: 35
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep10.234010.16001@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes:
|
||
|
>Indeed! Also, let's hear the *official* dis-information on how Bower and
|
||
|
>Chorley managed to create circles in the UK since *medieval times*.
|
||
|
|
||
|
They stated they got the idea from people who had done it decades
|
||
|
before. Also what is the quality of the evidence from "*medieval
|
||
|
times*"? Photos? Exact measurements?
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
>I also have pictures of a crop ringlet that was created in Arizona..I
|
||
|
>guess Bower and Chorley must also be the MIB to create those as well.
|
||
|
|
||
|
They didn't claim they'd made them all. It's obviously very simple
|
||
|
to duplicate.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
>I wonder whose GOVT is repressing the VIDEO TAPE taken of objects that
|
||
|
>have created the circle (this was featured at a recent MUFON conference),
|
||
|
>in the UK.
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>While I do not doubt that some circles have been hoaxed, it is absolute
|
||
|
>rubbish to throw the baby out with the bath water, which is being suggested
|
||
|
>here.
|
||
|
|
||
|
What do you think the odds are that a couple of guys walking on boards
|
||
|
would generate *exactly* the same pattern as that made by a spaceship?
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
_
|
||
|
Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%venus@sr.com
|
||
|
3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355
|
||
|
VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200
|
||
|
|
||
|
96.37% of all statistics are made up.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9530 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!dali.cs.montana.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!samsung!uunet!mcsun!ukc!pyrltd!root44!steve
|
||
|
From: steve@root.co.uk (Steve Ratcliffe)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <3104@root44.co.uk>
|
||
|
Date: 13 Sep 91 17:56:43 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <1991Sep10.234010.16001@bilver.uucp> <1991Sep11.210014.17234@anasaz>
|
||
|
Organization: UniSoft Ltd., London, England
|
||
|
Lines: 57
|
||
|
|
||
|
It is reasonable to believe that Bower and Chorley hoaxed some or most
|
||
|
of the complex 'pictogram' designs. However others in the past have
|
||
|
hoaxed some circles and then claimed in addition to be responsible for
|
||
|
starting it all off -- just continuing the hoax really. Therefore we
|
||
|
need to apply caution and check whether the story they give makes
|
||
|
sense.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Given only the information in "Today" I am not at all convinced. Most
|
||
|
of the problems with the story listed below are a lack of detail which
|
||
|
prevent any definite conclusions from being drawn either way, but there
|
||
|
are several suspicious elements as well.
|
||
|
|
||
|
-- They claim to have been the ones to have started the circles in England
|
||
|
in 1978. However there were reports of circles before that time in
|
||
|
local newspapers. In particular there were several in 1977. It is
|
||
|
difficult to tell whether the historical reports refer to the same
|
||
|
phenomenon due to the lack of the important details in the reports.
|
||
|
However people have been finding circles that they can't explain for
|
||
|
much longer than 13 years.
|
||
|
|
||
|
-- They claim that no one noticed the circles for three years. They say
|
||
|
that the first mention of the circles that they saw in the local
|
||
|
papers was the 1981 event that Delgado first publicised. Would they
|
||
|
have missed the local coverage given to a circle appearing the
|
||
|
previous year, when they were so eagerly awaiting for someone to
|
||
|
discover them?
|
||
|
The 1980 circle appeared in the newspaper, was investigated by a local
|
||
|
ufo group (who said it appeared that it was caused by downward air-pressure
|
||
|
or similar), and had been investigated by meteorologist Terence Meaden.
|
||
|
So the circles were well known before the hoaxers realised that they
|
||
|
had been discovered.
|
||
|
|
||
|
-- (I have not personally checked this yet) Delgado was apparently
|
||
|
not aware of the 1980 circle, when he wrote his best selling book,
|
||
|
although it appears (with photograph) in other less well known later
|
||
|
books.
|
||
|
|
||
|
-- No demonstration of making circles without walking down the tramlines
|
||
|
was given.
|
||
|
|
||
|
-- The reliance of "Today" on Delgado as the foremost 'expert'. I would
|
||
|
have thought that a proponent of the meteorological explanation
|
||
|
would have taken one look at the silly design and said that it was
|
||
|
someone taking the piss. Of course, had that happened, there
|
||
|
would have been no story.
|
||
|
|
||
|
-- There were no details about whether the circles had the layering
|
||
|
and banding effects that are features of 'real' circles.
|
||
|
|
||
|
-- They claim to have made ~ 200 circles since 1978. "Today" made some
|
||
|
comment about these including the very ones that Delgado had found to
|
||
|
be the most unexplicable(?).
|
||
|
Meaden has collected reports of about 800+ circles.
|
||
|
That seems like a lot of copycat hoaxing going on, especially as there
|
||
|
would be no reason to think that all their claimed hoaxes were discovered.
|
||
|
There was no indication of whether the hoaxers records included impressive
|
||
|
circles that had not been discovered.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9503 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!monu0.cc.monash.edu.au!monu6!minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au!s851867
|
||
|
From: s851867@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Paul Stephen Holt)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep12.140045.24728@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au>
|
||
|
Date: 12 Sep 91 14:00:45 GMT
|
||
|
References: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>
|
||
|
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia.
|
||
|
Lines: 25
|
||
|
|
||
|
cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (Peter R. Cook) writes:
|
||
|
> I don't believe it. Explain the circles that have appeared
|
||
|
> in Asia, Canada, and America.
|
||
|
Perhaps those are:
|
||
|
1. Only anecdotal
|
||
|
2. Done by copycat circle makers (I know _I_'ve been tempted...)
|
||
|
3. Real
|
||
|
|
||
|
Of all these three explanations, two have no necessity for an
|
||
|
extraterrestrial or supernatural explanation, and the other reason
|
||
|
is highly unlikely.
|
||
|
|
||
|
I repeat myself many times, but I'll say it one more time:
|
||
|
|
||
|
HOW can you non-critical observers (i.e. people who declare that
|
||
|
UFOs ARE real, that crystals DO work, that tarot cards MUST be
|
||
|
valid predictors of the future) accuse the scientific community of
|
||
|
not having an open mind, when you yourselves refuse to believe a
|
||
|
set of perfectly reasonable explanations?
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Paul Holt (student)
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
Hydrogen (n) [Hy'.drow.jen] A colourless, odourless gas which given time
|
||
|
turns into people.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9393 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!samsung!mips!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!netnews.srv.cs.cmu.edu!gerry
|
||
|
From: gerry@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <GERRY.91Sep11121525@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 17:15:25 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk> <1991Sep11.132945.2362@usenet@CS.ORST.EDU>
|
||
|
Reply-To: gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston)
|
||
|
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
|
||
|
Lines: 29
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu
|
||
|
In-Reply-To: woodc@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU's message of 11 Sep 91 13:29:45 GMT
|
||
|
|
||
|
The more posts I read by believers, the more certain I become that
|
||
|
they lack certain mental facilities. This crop circle thing is a good
|
||
|
example. Several posters have said (paraphrased) "How can two old men
|
||
|
make all of these circles?"
|
||
|
|
||
|
THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE!
|
||
|
|
||
|
The point is this, these guys showed a technique they claim to have
|
||
|
been using for many years to create these circles. Now, does anyone
|
||
|
honestly think that they are the only two people on the entire Earth
|
||
|
who are capable of concocting this scheme? Has noone else ever heard
|
||
|
of copy-cats?
|
||
|
|
||
|
The point is that a repeatable explination for these circles has been
|
||
|
provided and demonstrated. This explination should be accepted as the
|
||
|
methodology behind the creation of all crop circles until another
|
||
|
repeatable, demonstratable explination is put forth.
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
Gerry Roston (gerry@cs.cmu.edu) | The most detestable wickedness, the most
|
||
|
Field Robotics Center, | horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries
|
||
|
Carnegie Mellon University | that have afflicted the human race have had
|
||
|
Pittsburgh, PA, 15213 | their origin in this thing called
|
||
|
(412) 268-6557 | revelation, or revealed religion. It has
|
||
|
| been the most dishonorable belief against
|
||
|
| the character of the Divinity, the most
|
||
|
| destructive to morality and the peace and
|
||
|
| happiness of man that ever was propagated
|
||
|
| since man began to exist. Thomas Paine
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9519 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!rpi!usc!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ncar!unidata.ucar.edu!steve
|
||
|
From: steve@unidata.ucar.edu (Steve Emmerson)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: What we know about crop circles
|
||
|
Message-ID: <steve.684817705@unidata.ucar.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 14 Sep 91 03:08:25 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep11.171106.19062@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>
|
||
|
Sender: news@ncar.ucar.edu
|
||
|
Distribution: na
|
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Organization: University Corporation for Atmospheric Research (UCAR)
|
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Lines: 17
|
||
|
|
||
|
esot@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Eric Sotnak) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
> It is certainly too strong a claim to say that we now KNOW that all
|
||
|
>crop circles are a hoax. What we do know is that (a) it is possible to
|
||
|
>create crop circles by normal means, and (b) at least some crop circles
|
||
|
>have been made by normal means.
|
||
|
|
||
|
No, we don't know that -- not in the scientific sense. We know that
|
||
|
two men made something, that the "something" was said to be authentic
|
||
|
by Delgado, and that the men claimed to have made others.
|
||
|
|
||
|
How authentic was the something?
|
||
|
|
||
|
What are Delgado's credentials?
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
|
||
|
Steve Emmerson steve@unidata.ucar.edu ...!ncar!unidata!steve
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9498 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!rpi!batcomputer!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!mcsun!ukc!edcastle!dcl-cs!gdt!aber!aberda!aro
|
||
|
From: aro@cs.aber.ac.uk (Andy Ormsby)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <ARO.91Sep13175109@zeus.cs.aber.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Date: 13 Sep 91 17:51:09 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep12.041631.11276@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
|
||
|
Sender: news@aber.ac.uk (USENET news service)
|
||
|
Reply-To: aro@cs.aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby)
|
||
|
Organization: Computer Science Dept. University College of Wales, Aberystwyth
|
||
|
Lines: 46
|
||
|
In-Reply-To: ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu's message of 12 Sep 91 04: 16:31 GMT
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: zeus
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep12.041631.11276@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> ai065@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas Hill) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
> 1- Is this method fast enough to create crop circles over night? If so, how
|
||
|
> many people will it take to produce some of the "unhoaxed" circles?
|
||
|
> [Above should read- how many people will it take to produce one of these
|
||
|
> "unhoaxed" circles in one night?]
|
||
|
|
||
|
The method appears to be reasonably fast.
|
||
|
|
||
|
> 2- Has the "bending but not breaking" effect been proven to exist in crop
|
||
|
> circles? If so, is the method able to produce such an effect?
|
||
|
|
||
|
Yes, they do the "bending not breaking" stuff.
|
||
|
|
||
|
> 3- Based on the amount of people needed to produce your average size crop
|
||
|
> circle, how many people would it take to produce the amount of circles made
|
||
|
> in one month or year?
|
||
|
|
||
|
I don't know. How many crop circles are there? What is the average
|
||
|
size? Why do the appear in southern England but not here in Wales?
|
||
|
How many aliens (or whatever) would it take to produce them? If so
|
||
|
many, how come we don't seem to have seen any yet? Obviously any
|
||
|
decent explanation must account for the number of circles that are
|
||
|
observed.
|
||
|
|
||
|
> 4- Are there any other characteristics of crop circles that this method is
|
||
|
> unable to produce? If so, are there any other known methods which can?
|
||
|
|
||
|
What characteristics? The method demonstrated by the British hoaxers
|
||
|
fooled one of the "experts". Of course, the expert may have been a
|
||
|
pretty poor expert. If there is some clear way of distinguishing hoax
|
||
|
circles from some "other" kind of circle, then that would be
|
||
|
interesting. Of course, it presupposes that there is an "other" kind
|
||
|
of circle.
|
||
|
|
||
|
> If your simply going to reach a conclusion without putting the "solution" to
|
||
|
> a few tests then your no longer a skeptic...
|
||
|
|
||
|
The evidence supporting the hypothesis (and it is only a hypothesis)
|
||
|
that the circles (at least the complex patterns) are produced by
|
||
|
hoaxers seems stronger than the evidence for any other explanation. If
|
||
|
you can come up with a better explanation, then I am sure we would all
|
||
|
like to hear it.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Andy
|
||
|
aro@cs.aber.ac.uk
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9507 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Xref: bilver alt.alien.visitors:1648 alt.paranormal:2769 sci.skeptic:9507
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!gtephx!forda
|
||
|
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Dave and Doug's crop circle hoax
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.201717.25579@gtephx.UUCP>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 20:17:17 GMT
|
||
|
References: <91253.195627JPST55@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK>
|
||
|
Organization: gte
|
||
|
Lines: 19
|
||
|
|
||
|
Did ever occur to _any_ of you skeptics that D&D claimed to
|
||
|
have put up a hoax because they just can't accept any other
|
||
|
explanation? NOT that I believe, or ever did believe, that
|
||
|
the circles were evidence of anything.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Its just that a lot of you have been blasting "psi believers"
|
||
|
because "we believe what we want to believe."
|
||
|
I am just wondering if any skeptics have given any thought
|
||
|
to the possibility that the hoax is a hoax?
|
||
|
|
||
|
Set Sarcasm EXTREME:
|
||
|
Now why would anyone want to get famous as the guys who fooled
|
||
|
the world?!?!?!?
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
Without either the 1st or 2nd amendment, we would have no liberty: the 1st
|
||
|
allows us to find out whats happening, the 2nd allows us to do something about
|
||
|
it! The 2nd will be taken away first, followed by the 1st and then the rest of
|
||
|
our freedoms. - Andrew Ford INTERNET: gtephx!forda@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9547 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Xref: bilver alt.alien.visitors:1654 alt.paranormal:2772 sci.skeptic:9547
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!dali.cs.montana.edu!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!phad.hsc.usc.edu!dyett
|
||
|
From: dyett@phad.hsc.usc.edu (Donald Yett)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Invitation for evidence
|
||
|
Message-ID: <35865@usc.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 14 Sep 91 01:51:12 GMT
|
||
|
References: <91253.195627JPST55@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> <1991Sep11.201717.25579@gtephx.UUCP>
|
||
|
Sender: news@usc.edu
|
||
|
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
|
||
|
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
|
||
|
Lines: 62
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: phad.hsc.usc.edu
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Is the media prejudiced? C'mon guys, If the money for miracles guys, the
|
||
|
real-estate riches guys, the government auction guys, the astrologers, and
|
||
|
the hot air chicks can buy air time, so can organized UFO research..
|
||
|
|
||
|
My wish-list : a syndicated special, pref at least 2 hours long.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Enough SOLID evidence to make a skeptic say "UFOs are around!"
|
||
|
|
||
|
How about that guy with all the CLEAR and (supposedly) irrefutable photo-
|
||
|
graphic evidence showing his stuff.
|
||
|
|
||
|
A brief history on hoaxes.
|
||
|
|
||
|
A history of classic incidents, Roswell, etc... WITH DOCUMENTATION, there
|
||
|
has been talk about government papers being de-classified.
|
||
|
|
||
|
NO BULLSHIT, nothing like the bogus movies/shows of the past, Prove they are
|
||
|
here NOW, nowbody wants to hear about the Nasca lines again, how aliens built
|
||
|
the pyramids, etc...
|
||
|
|
||
|
If solid evidence is presented, and you are able to prove it, then you will
|
||
|
have your hands full with people coming out of the closets with sightings.
|
||
|
If you do not describe any aliens at all within the show(s), these people
|
||
|
coming outta the closet will either confirm or refute the stories about
|
||
|
Grays, if you describe a blue, fat, tall alien, people will start seeing them.
|
||
|
I believe that some of the reports may be true, but most ARE crackpots and
|
||
|
loonies, better yet, let this work for you, describe an outlandish alien and
|
||
|
you can seperate the crackpots this way after the show is over and they start
|
||
|
crawling outta the woodwork reporting aliens.
|
||
|
|
||
|
If the evidence cannot be presented in one show, make a mini-series out of it.
|
||
|
|
||
|
First, will the stations run it? Yes, if they run Robert Tilton, if they
|
||
|
run "The Elvis Files" (a show some weeks ago that tried unsuccessfully to
|
||
|
prove Elvis is alive), then they will run this..
|
||
|
|
||
|
Second, will the advertisers pay? Have you seen the ratings of "The Elvis
|
||
|
Files"?
|
||
|
|
||
|
Third, will the viewers believe? That depends on the evidence. Make it good
|
||
|
because the people who count will be hard to convince.
|
||
|
|
||
|
I would like to see this from professionals in the field, not some
|
||
|
pseudo-scientific presentation. Sources MUST be credible. Radar traces
|
||
|
not FAA certified (and advertized as such) can be created by any hardware
|
||
|
hacker in his/her garage using industrial/government surplus sources.
|
||
|
|
||
|
I know someone who brought this idea up one night when reading this newsgroup.
|
||
|
He would be willing to be an organizer for such a film, financial backing
|
||
|
must come from within the UFO research community. If you expect another
|
||
|
"Chariots of the Gods", then go elsewhere. We are interested in REAL evidence.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Any takers?
|
||
|
|
||
|
Please note this is cross-posted to sci.skeptic
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
|
||
|
| dyett@phad.hsc.usc.edu | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed,
|
||
|
| Just my opinions! | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner
|
||
|
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9542 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!dali.cs.montana.edu!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!srg!news
|
||
|
From: dpipes@srg.uucp (Dave Pipes)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Aliens and Ignorance
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep12.133127.10783@srg.uucp>
|
||
|
Date: 12 Sep 91 13:31:27 GMT
|
||
|
Sender: dpipes@srg.uucp
|
||
|
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Organization: ARINC Research Corporation, Annapolis, MD
|
||
|
Lines: 28
|
||
|
|
||
|
Most of the crop circle discussions lately have devolved into
|
||
|
the argument that these 60 year-old gents couldn't have done
|
||
|
all of them, and we can't account for all of them. Ignoring the
|
||
|
fact that my gradnfather, when sixty, worked 14-16 hour days and
|
||
|
could lift a 500 lb calf to move it, examine the following line of
|
||
|
reasoning:
|
||
|
|
||
|
Assertion: All rockets launched in the USA are launched by aliens.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Response: But NASA launches rockets in the USA.
|
||
|
|
||
|
A: Does NASA launch ALL the rockets in the USA? What about before
|
||
|
it existed?
|
||
|
|
||
|
R: Gee, I don't know who launched rockets before NASA, or who else
|
||
|
launches them now, but I am SURE that it is just people, like NASA.
|
||
|
|
||
|
A: But you CAN'T be sure, until YOU PERSONALLY can account for EVERY
|
||
|
launch that has occured OR been reported to occur. Until you can,
|
||
|
I will assert that some rockets launched in the US were launched by
|
||
|
aliens. In fact, until you can account for every report of events
|
||
|
which RESEMBLE rocket launches, I will assert that you are wrong.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Does it bother anyone to see themselves arguing in this fashion?
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
David Pipes
|
||
|
...!uunet!srg!spica!dpipes
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9549 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!dali.cs.montana.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ncar!unidata.ucar.edu!steve
|
||
|
From: steve@unidata.ucar.edu (Steve Emmerson)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <steve.684824956@unidata.ucar.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 14 Sep 91 05:09:16 GMT
|
||
|
References: <GERRY.91Sep11121525@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu>
|
||
|
Sender: news@ncar.ucar.edu
|
||
|
Distribution: na
|
||
|
Organization: University Corporation for Atmospheric Research (UCAR)
|
||
|
Lines: 14
|
||
|
|
||
|
gerry@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
>The point is that a repeatable explination for these circles has been
|
||
|
>provided and demonstrated. This explination should be accepted as the
|
||
|
>methodology behind the creation of all crop circles until another
|
||
|
>repeatable, demonstratable explination is put forth.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Occam's razor? Least objectionable hypothesis?
|
||
|
|
||
|
You got it right except for one thing. We don't know how good their
|
||
|
circle was. Put another way, what are Delgado's credentials?
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
|
||
|
Steve Emmerson steve@unidata.ucar.edu ...!ncar!unidata!steve
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9551 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!dali.cs.montana.edu!caen!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hpl-opus!hpcc05!hp-ptp!davew
|
||
|
From: davew@hp-ptp.HP.COM (Dave Waller)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax.
|
||
|
Message-ID: <22080004@hp-ptp.HP.COM>
|
||
|
Date: 13 Sep 91 20:56:49 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>
|
||
|
Organization: HP Pacific Technology Park - Sunnyvale, Ca.
|
||
|
Lines: 36
|
||
|
|
||
|
In sci.skeptic, bmason@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Bruce Mason) writes:
|
||
|
|
||
|
> Where most circles researchers have problems with the hoax theory is in the
|
||
|
> non-obvious nature of the circles as symbols. For example most circles are
|
||
|
> most definitely non-circular, although often this is not obvious until you
|
||
|
> measure them. Also there are many internal features of circle formations
|
||
|
> that no one has been able to replicate. For example many circle beds have
|
||
|
> different layers of rotation, as if something has pushed/pulled some of the
|
||
|
> corn over in one direction and then gone back in the other direction to lay
|
||
|
> the rest down. Many of the anomalous features of circles are anomalous
|
||
|
> because they seem to make no sense. For example many circles have small
|
||
|
> tufts of untouched corn left at random, circles tend to deform where the
|
||
|
> edge meets tractor lines. There was a swathed circle in Shropshire (I believe)
|
||
|
> that looked a bit like an exploded circle. A very few circles have not been
|
||
|
> fully flattened but habe only been bent over at the top. These and quite a
|
||
|
> few other features are not only very difficult to hoax (though this is not in
|
||
|
> itself a compelling argument) but argue for hoaxes who were amazingly
|
||
|
> resistant to the temptation to provide striking symbols. It has only been
|
||
|
> in the last two years with the terrific media interest that easily
|
||
|
> recognisable symbols, (smiley faces, pop-band logos, Mandlebrot sets etc) have
|
||
|
> become common. (That said in 1985 the letters WEARENOTALONE appeared at a f
|
||
|
> famous site --- a curious thing for aliens to claim...)
|
||
|
|
||
|
Might I point out that, with the exception of the "flattened only at the
|
||
|
top" anomaly, the "problems" described above are _exactly_ what one
|
||
|
might expect from a human created circle with a board?
|
||
|
|
||
|
I am a bit dismayed that non-circularity, reversal of rotational layers,
|
||
|
untouched tufts, deformation near tractor lines are things that seem
|
||
|
contrary to human production of these circles.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Quite the contrary, a perfectly circular circle, 100 yards in radius
|
||
|
with absolutely seamless bending in the same direction all the way
|
||
|
around would be something of a mystery.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Dave Waller
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9567 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!dali.cs.montana.edu!caen!spool.mu.edu!agate!stanford.edu!eos!data.nas.nasa.gov!mustang!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL
|
||
|
From: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu (Carl J Lydick)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: What we know about crop circles
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep15.035927.25796@cco.caltech.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 15 Sep 91 03:59:27 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep14.095811.14605@cco.caltech.edu>,<steve.684900060@unidata.ucar.edu>
|
||
|
Sender: news@cco.caltech.edu
|
||
|
Reply-To: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu
|
||
|
Distribution: na
|
||
|
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
|
||
|
Lines: 18
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <steve.684900060@unidata.ucar.edu>, steve@unidata.ucar.edu (Steve Emmerson) writes:
|
||
|
>carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu (Carl J Lydick) writes:
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>>Well, if you allow "some" to include "one", trhen we DO know what Eric claims
|
||
|
>>we know.
|
||
|
>
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>Not quite. We don't know how good the circle was.
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Well, we know that it was good enough to fool the "expert" most often cited by
|
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those who claim the crop circles are NOT hoaxes.
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL
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Disclaimer: Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS. That's what I get paid for. My
|
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|
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). So
|
||
|
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
|
||
|
organization responsible for it. If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
|
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|
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
|
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|
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|
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Article 9585 of sci.skeptic:
|
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Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!dali.cs.montana.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!sdd.hp.com!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ncar!unidata.ucar.edu!steve
|
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From: steve@unidata.ucar.edu (Steve Emmerson)
|
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|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
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|
Subject: Re: What we know about crop circles
|
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Message-ID: <steve.684966649@unidata.ucar.edu>
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Date: 15 Sep 91 20:30:49 GMT
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References: <1991Sep15.035927.25796@cco.caltech.edu>
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Sender: news@ncar.ucar.edu
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Distribution: na
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Organization: University Corporation for Atmospheric Research (UCAR)
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Lines: 11
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carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu (Carl J Lydick) writes:
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>Well, we know that it was good enough to fool the "expert" most often cited by
|
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>those who claim the crop circles are NOT hoaxes.
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I'm glad to see that you put "expert" in quotes.
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Just what are Delgado's credentials?
|
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--
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Steve Emmerson steve@unidata.ucar.edu ...!ncar!unidata!steve
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Article 9598 of sci.skeptic:
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Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
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|
Path: bilver!tarpit!fang!att!att!linac!uwm.edu!rpi!batcomputer!cornell!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!netnews.srv.cs.cmu.edu!gerry
|
||
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From: gerry@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston)
|
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Subject: Re: Dave and Doug's crop circle hoax
|
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Message-ID: <GERRY.91Sep12104330@onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu>
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 91 15:43:30 GMT
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|
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
|
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Nntp-Posting-Host: onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu
|
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|
In-Reply-To: al463@cleveland.Freenet.Edu's message of 11 Sep 91 23:09:37 GMT
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Reply-To: gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston)
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References: <1991Sep11.230937.3041@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
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Lines: 30
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In article <1991Sep11.230937.3041@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> al463@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher A. Joseph) writes:
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That is about as much credibility as I give to Dave and Doug. All you
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skeptics ACCEPTED their story TOO EASILY. Until I've done a circle
|
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|
myself, I believe no one. Nuff said.
|
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|
||
|
This is the weirdest post I have ever read. Why you might ask?
|
||
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|
||
|
Well, most believers tend to be soemwhat credulous. In his statement,
|
||
|
Chris is insinuating that he believes that PSI, ETs, or some other
|
||
|
unknown explination is required to make crop circles. Why does he
|
||
|
believe this? I don't know; there is no reason to expect that there
|
||
|
is a supernatural explination for these phenomena. Yet, he offers no
|
||
|
proof or support to this insinuation.
|
||
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|
||
|
Now, two folks come along, demonstrate how this is done, and guess
|
||
|
what!? Chris doesn't believe it until he tries it himself! This is
|
||
|
in direct contradiction to his open accpetance of a supernatural
|
||
|
explination.
|
||
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|
Well, I guess we skeptics have never accused believers of being
|
||
|
consistent.
|
||
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|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
Gerry Roston (gerry@cs.cmu.edu) | Some Christians pretend that Christianity
|
||
|
Field Robotics Center, | was not established by the sword; but of
|
||
|
Carnegie Mellon University | what period of time do they speak?
|
||
|
Pittsburgh, PA, 15213 | Thomas Paine
|
||
|
(412) 268-6557 |
|
||
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Article 9444 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!al463
|
||
|
From: al463@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher A. Joseph)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Where are the "copy cats"?
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep11.232527.5378@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 11 Sep 91 23:25:27 GMT
|
||
|
Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu
|
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|
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
|
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Lines: 13
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|
Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns1.ins.cwru.edu
|
||
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|
||
|
|
||
|
I hear all these references to alleged "copy cats" associated with
|
||
|
the crop circle thread. Where is your proof of their alleged existance?
|
||
|
More circles? Not good enough. I want more substantiated confessions
|
||
|
before the copy-cat theory will carry any weight with me.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Chris
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
Christopher A. Joseph (Chris)|"You can go wrong by being too skeptical
|
||
|
al463@cleveland.freenet.edu |as readily as by being too trusting"L.L.
|
||
|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
||
|
"!ELUR sebboH dna nivlaC" << Subliminal Message | FNORD!| Praise "Bob"
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9466 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!ge-dab!crdgw1!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!public!rah
|
||
|
From: rah@public.BTR.COM (Richard A Hyde rah@btr.com)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Where are the "copy cats"?
|
||
|
Message-ID: <4022@public.BTR.COM>
|
||
|
Date: 12 Sep 91 04:06:45 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep11.232527.5378@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
|
||
|
Organization: BTR Public Access UNIX, MtnView CA. Contact: Customer Service cs@BTR.COM
|
||
|
Lines: 26
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep11.232527.5378@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> al463@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher A. Joseph) writes:
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|I hear all these references to alleged "copy cats" associated with
|
||
|
|the crop circle thread. Where is your proof of their alleged existance?
|
||
|
|More circles? Not good enough. I want more substantiated confessions
|
||
|
|before the copy-cat theory will carry any weight with me.
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
I, myself, many years ago painted a large white circle in the middle of
|
||
|
an intersection. I remember choosing a circle because of it's simple
|
||
|
geometry and the fact that it was more appealing than a triangle or a
|
||
|
square. The circle was inspired by a series of large footprints found
|
||
|
painted down several miles of nearby rural road and reported in the local
|
||
|
press.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Had I been a rural rather than a suburban child, perhaps I would have
|
||
|
tampered with crops instead. So, to all those residents of Lacey, Washington
|
||
|
who have for the last 20 years worried about aliens painting arcane symbols
|
||
|
on public roads... rest easy. It *was* a hoax.
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
--
|
||
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
||
|
| Richard Hyde | RaH@btr.com | This space intentionally left blank |
|
||
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
||
|
|
||
|
|
||
|
Article 9436 of sci.skeptic:
|
||
|
Path: bilver!tarpit!peora!masscomp!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!stanford.edu!eos!data.nas.nasa.gov!mustang!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL
|
||
|
From: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu (Carl J Lydick)
|
||
|
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
|
||
|
Subject: Re: Where are the "copy cats"?
|
||
|
Message-ID: <1991Sep12.174154.9714@cco.caltech.edu>
|
||
|
Date: 12 Sep 91 17:41:54 GMT
|
||
|
References: <1991Sep11.232527.5378@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
|
||
|
Sender: news@cco.caltech.edu
|
||
|
Reply-To: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu
|
||
|
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
|
||
|
Lines: 25
|
||
|
Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu
|
||
|
|
||
|
In article <1991Sep11.232527.5378@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, al463@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher A. Joseph) writes:
|
||
|
>
|
||
|
>I hear all these references to alleged "copy cats" associated with
|
||
|
>the crop circle thread. Where is your proof of their alleged existance?
|
||
|
>More circles? Not good enough. I want more substantiated confessions
|
||
|
>before the copy-cat theory will carry any weight with me.
|
||
|
|
||
|
Right. And when you GET more substantiated confessions, you'll then be able to
|
||
|
claim: "But the copycats didn't confess until the technique made world news.
|
||
|
They just heard about how the two Limeys did it, practiced for awhile, and then
|
||
|
made up their confessions." As of a week or so ago, all the PSI, UFO, etc.
|
||
|
advocates were saying "If it's a hoax, show us how it could have been done.
|
||
|
All the experts say there's no way a human being could have done it". Now that
|
||
|
the technique has been demonstrated, they change the standard of proof to
|
||
|
something that, given the publicity, is TRULY impossible. C'MON GUYS: GIVE US
|
||
|
A STANDARD OF PROOF THAT'S AT LEAST THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE TO ACHIEVE, THEN
|
||
|
STICK WITH IT.
|
||
|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
||
|
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL
|
||
|
|
||
|
Disclaimer: Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS. That's what I get paid for. My
|
||
|
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). So
|
||
|
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
|
||
|
organization responsible for it. If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
|
||
|
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
|
||
|
**********************************************
|
||
|
* THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo *
|
||
|
**********************************************
|