textfiles/politics/SPUNK/sp000134.txt

Summer School 1993 workshop: Women, feminism and revolution


Tape 1:  side 1


Speaker:

 don't want to take a lead role in discussion, just going to ask Q's which I 
think are relevant and you can ask q's as well and I  just want to get feed-
back about peoples own ideas.  Reason I'm saying this is that on the paper I 
was called a Dublin a-f  - sticking the little word a before feminist is 
typical of what happens to the feminist movement in general, it gets subsumed by 
other things.

At the moment we're experiencing g a backlash against the ? gains which 
women made, like the legal and economic gains which women have made 
since the late 60's and early 70's. I want to know if anyone here can 
pinpoint aspects of this backlash, say in their own lives.  Things like sexual 
violence is enormously on the increase, rape is increasing much faster than 
other forms of criminal activities.

??? throughout the spectrum, all over the world, not just in western 
capitalist societies.  Places like India where  sutee has come back into 
fashion.  Does anyone know  can anyone pinpoint other aspects of this 
general backlash against women, particularly in the 80's.

contributor:  ????


Speaker:

the idea put about by the Reagan and thatcher administrations that if you 
 don't have a baby by the age of 25 your children will be handicapped  
There is enormous pressure put on women that was lifted during the 70's 
but has been put back on them the whole of the 80's to go back home and 
have children at a younger age and I've noticed this even watching tv or a 
film, women succumbing to this idea that independence isn't for me 
actually - I want to go back and feel satisfied - I want to go back and have 
babies. The 30 something series was based around this same idea.  Yesterday 
I heard Simon Bates say "she didn't have a baby until she was 26.  A lot of 
ladies choose to have babies a lot younger than that"  This is a really, really 
important thing to fight against 'cos once it gets into the media it gets 
picked up... during the 80's, as a girl growing up, I constantly read in 
crappy magazines about what the risks were going to be if I decided to leave 
it until I was older then 30 to have children or after 35.  there's also  
ridiculous statistics in the media about the chances you have of finding a 
man are seriously limited if you have a career.  It's a myth that totally ? the 
80's generally.

We have to wonder why these backlashes continually happen.  E.g. in the 
1980's abortion was completely legal in all the states the U.S. - every state 
which is quite a salient fact to hear now since  ??? it's been made illegal. 
Things seem to have slipped backwards, as soon as Women make gains, 
minuscule gains there seems to be a massive over-reaction on the part of the
largely male establishment against those gains.  It happened also in the 
2nd world war when women were able to become more independent.  When 
the men came back they were pushed out of their jobs and back into the 
home.  And in the 50's media images of women became buxom again, tiny-
waisted all the stereotypical ideas.

Why do these backlashes always happen and why is there such a fear on 
the part of the largely  male establishment ?

contributor:

it's the cheapest way to bring up the next generation to have women do it 
for nothing.  to be a feminist doesn't mean you  don't want to have a baby - 
that's not the issue but that women bring up the next generation. that's being 
reinforced again.


speaker:

at the same time, the 2 areas were women experience most hostility is when 
the enter typically male professionlike work sites. I've read cases of the 
emotional terrorism that happens to women who get jobs like opening their 
lockers and finding pornography stuck all over them.  It's usually because 
blue-collar work is the most economicly insecure type of work that  there 
is.  Once women make a demand too get economic independence through that 
there's always a massive reaction against them.  In  the U.S. sociologists 
have named this group of men they're called contenders they are baby-
boom babies, and after the Reagan-Bush administration they've been made 
completely insecure economically.  A lot of them are unemployed and are 
have part-time work.  They'll never have the opportunity of doing as well 
as their father's did and this causes a lot of aggression towards women  who 
are trying to break into the workplace.

There's a terrible discrepancy between what the law claims it will do for 
women and what actually happens.  It's so easy for these laws to be revoked.  
E.g. the abortion law in Britain has been attacked 16 times in parliament in 
the last ten years.  In the states it's more or less impossible to get an 
abortion if you're poor.  These are all things which have happened in the 
last 10 years.


contributor:

Organisations like the innocents in Glasgow and SPUC, the amount of 
funding the get from the Christian right-wing is not looked at, as they are 
charities and seen as being non-political.  Abortion is made an emotive 
issue and not a right.

speaker:

the new right in the U.S. and Britain adopted the lingo of pro-family and 
not anti-abortion and that women have the right not to have an abortion 
and a lot o f women have fallen for that argument.  These groups have 
adopted left-wing and feminist rhetoric for their own ends.

Maybe we should move on a bit. If legal reforms aren't working and can be 
demolished in the space of ten years, what is going to work to remove the 
subjugation of women,

contributor:

I'd like to get back to your original Q about why this backlash ? Feminism is 
seen as a real threat but they  don't want to admit it openly.

contributor:

I think you need to approach it from 2 angles there's the issue of women 
and women's  politics and there's the issue of class.  And it seems to me that 
when you take something like abortion, from modern feminist theories it 
doesn't seem to connect with a lot of people's live's anymore. what we 
should be asking is it it the fact that the women's movement is weak that 
the state is aiming to get away with cutting back abortion time-limits.  I 
think you have to see it as directly parallel with attacks on homosexuality 
and sexual freedom in general in the eighties and often they're linked.  
There's been a lot of resistance but it's been sporadic.  The organisation of 
the women's  to my mind doesn't affect a lot of people's minds anymore.  
When you talk about a-f.. if you're an anarchist or a socialist then you 
incorporate into your theories the theory of women's liberation as well.


speaker:

I think that's all very well.  If anarchism was in its theoretical essence you 
wouldn't have to have the subjugation of women but in my own experience 
what happens in practice is that  women in say anarchist, left-wing or any 
kind direct action groups, I've often  experienced being sidelined.  In theory 
it seems to work but all too often - I'll just give you an example.  In Ireland 
we have really repressive laws against women -  one of the worst countries 
in Europe - there's no abortion, no divorce women are just 2nd-class 
citizens. In 1992 there was a case called a the X-case about a 14-year old girl 
who was raped and brought back under police custody to Ireland to stand 
trial.  There were massive marches and demonstrations. Some of the men on 
the marches  who I considered to be allies started talking about how trivial 
and bourgeois all this was.  I've noticed when I've been working with 
groups that women's demands about their specific oppression which is 
different to men's when it comes down to practice, they're ignored or else 
gobbled up under one theoretical anarchism say and that if you diverge 
from that you'll be told that you're taking away from the movement.

contributor:

Well, it must be an issue because in America  there were lesbians who 
appeared under the banner "anarchism without men".  

contributor:

But that's always the case in political organisation.

contributor:

If this was a movement which was genuinely a federation????

contributor:

We were talking about racism and black nationalism in the last 
workshop...women are discouraged in political groups from having 
opinions.

contributor:

???

contributor:

The idea of backlash - I think we ought to, in any case, Q the gains in the so-
called sexual revolution anyway, what did the 60's actually bring us. Was it 
really sexual liberation ? I think one of he main issues in the 80's is HIV / 
Aids which has just  been an excuse to rally round the hetero family unit 
and to exalt heterosexuality as the only, viable, acceptable, clean natural, 
form of sexuality and so I fighting against not only  heterosexism, but also 
heterosexuality as it is now is a fundamental component of any strategy 
that is going to bring us  any nearer the type of society that we want. 
Heterosexuality is compulsory, you are brought from when you're very 
young, you see adverts of a man bringing a woman a box of chocolates, all 
the films based around man-woman relationships every thing is couched 
within heterosexual / sexist terms. I think what we need to do is to examine 
the way hetty has destroyed so many people's lives not only, gays, bisexuals 
and lesbians but also so-called hetero themselves. but also what we need to 
do as anarchists is to really push the idea of sexual pleasure as something 
which is positive and enjoyable as long as it doesn't harm people. (I take a 
strong line against S-M relationships) but sex is pleasure, something which is 
good.

contributor:

Sexual pleasure seems like a commodity... issues of  money, wealth and 
power are also important.


contributor:

I agree - I think we should try to look at the kind of relationships which try 
to minimise power and destroy it. I haven't got any solution for that. you 
can have just as much power and abuse in a gay relationship. I think we 
need to reconsider what people really want and need. it's difficult within 
world were relationships are so inegalitarian and power centres on people 
who are distant. I think we should be looking at ways of destroying that 
power relationship

contributor:

A lot of women spend a lot of time on their appearance.  A women's beauty 
is as pure commodity she can use it, capitalise on it, that's how she get's 
power.

speaker:


It all comes down to a few years ago when you had to catch a husband, that's 
how you got money, forget about love.

contributor:

????

speaker:

The way hetero sex is portrayed, foreplay, penetration, male orgasm like the 
woman is the helpmate. first of all, the taboo has to be lifted about women's 
sexuality a lot of women  don't know about their own sexuality

contributor:

???

speaker:

The so-called sexual revolution, was a male thing it just gave men the 
licence to have sex whenever and with whoever they wanted but when women do 
that there were double-standards they were called sluts and slags. it also put 
pressure on women to have sex when they didn't want to as it made them 
feel as they weren't liberated if they said no.


contributor:

It still happens now when you get called frigid if you  don't want to have sex


speaker:

Moving on to the feminist tenet that the personal is the political. any ideas 
on why this is so? how did people here get their consciousness raised.?

c:  ????

c:  I've been criticised by lefty women for wearing a miniskirt.

c:  it's just like the state, the establishment wanting to put people into boxes


c:  I think its about getting away from the idea of the universal women if 
you look at the feminist movement it has been dominated by white m-c 
women who are creating the agendas I think you have to accept that feminism
intercepts with race, class gender -  all of them are inter-related. a black 
woman's experience is different from a white m-c woman's. 


c:  When I was thirteen walking past building sites I would get the usual 
abuse and would tell them to fuck off and it was me who shocked people 

c:  It happens all the time, I walked into a room and 12 men were there and 
they all just stood staring - I regard that as emotional terrorism it's all part 
of the patriarchal system which just bashes and tries to cut women down.

c:  It's always your reaction to intimidation which attracts the attention

c:  I saw this documentary about women and self-defence and they had an 
interview with the police about what they should to protect themselves 
 don't go out at night alone, don't walk down dark alleys, don't wear high-
heeled shoes and not to fight back. Are you supposed to be a prisoner in 
your own home ?


s:  Do women get blamed for all the shit that happens to them? Is feminism 
and the womens movement being blamed for womens problems.

c:  They're taught to blame their mother's and other women around them. 
Womens writing has always attacked gender roles including boys not 
being allowed to cry.  This mens movement - its as if men think feminism 
is anti-male.

c:  I think it's interesting that the state focuses on women protecting 
themselves rather than tackling the problem of male violence itself which 
is the root.

c:  I  don't think we should concentrate on help from the male establishment 
its more a case of what we can do ourselves. I  don't think anyone here 
believes  in separatism, how are we going to get together to help each 
other.  I've been to so many meetings like this, and 90% of the time I leave 
feeling depressed - rape, power, violence - so much shit.  Collectively we've 
got so much power.  Separatism is not the answer so how are we to unite 
and help each other?.

s:   I think the only way things will change is if theres a massive raising of 
consciousness - men receive so many prejudices as the grow up.  The whole 
"battle of the sexes" as its euphemistically called is so deep-rooted, I mean, 
how are we going to tackle it. It causes some of the bitterest scenes in 
human relations.

I've had discussions with male friend about the guilt they feel for things 
that have happened over the centuries. he was trying to express his 
feelings after hearing things from women like "all men are bastards". I 
 don't think we should fight the gender but specific cases. you can't 
generalise.

speaker:

Do any men feel guilty about the domination of women?

contributor:

I think that a lot of men oppose the role they are supposed to play. you can't 
generalise and say all men this or all men that. like saying that only women 
should fear going on busses, gay men get attacked on them.  I think we should 
concentrate on how gender roles are constructed. I've always understood 
from feminist writing that men can be changed. I think we should aim to destroy 
gender roles and analyse how they are constructed.

speaker:

But how can we tackle this when so much culture is geared to macho men 
and passive women like in films?  What is masculine identity?  Some research 
into this threw up that most men saw themselves as the breadwinner and 
many women too,  and that's one of the reasons why we're 
getting hostile because women are moving towards economic independency. 
half the case of murdered women are by husbands or boyfriends and 
usually happen after the woman has filed for divorce and even 
interviewed after the husband or boyfriend says that the woman was 
beginning to get the upper-hand, and seems to cause a lot of insecurity and 
that brings it down to economic power again.

c:  Most women have part-time jobs and are full-time wives.  Economic 
necessity means that in most families, the woman is working.

s:  Up till now, we've talked about how men have been affected by the 
backlash, I think we should look at women themselves.  I've met so many 
women who say I'm not a feminist, no way.  Is it because feminists are 
seen as an exclusive, middle-class group ?

c:  The things about guilt.  When I was young, I was racist, sexist, 
homophobic but I  don't feel guilty.  It's because it's the environment 
you're brought up in.

c:  Two things seem to have taken place.  One is the rejection by women of 
feminism.  Theres been a shift over the last 5- to 10 years of a creeping 
acceptance by women of traditional roles.  The second thing...I think theres 
been a shift by 18 to 23 year old men to what is acceptable for heterosexual 
men as far as gestures, how the dress...a blurring of what is expected of 
them.

c:  I think mainstream feminism, the one which most people have contact 
with is the one which says we want 50% of the elected bodies and its 
going to make a lot of difference to women in the street and you know 
thats not the case because at the end of the day, those women are going to 
be bosses, bosses are still bosses.  I think that kind of feminism just 
simply doesn't connect with peoples lives and if your looking for a reason 
why more women aren't involved in that movement is that it doesn't 
connect with their experiences.  To them its something which is way out of 
their reach.  Its run by people who have professional jobs, are articulate, 
who earn a lot of money and it just doesn't connect with their lives.

s:  I think thats something we should maximise on.  E.g. in the legal system 
in Britain, 19 out of 480 circuit court judges are women.  Its completely 
male-dominated.  I  don't think women want to get involved in that.

c:  ????

c:  I think the reason feminism has been attractive, from my experience 
women have ???? I'm not a separatist.  I think women have to work 
together from their specific ???? and with them.  If you're a black women 
your oppression is specific from a a white woman.  I think its important for 
women to meet politically.

c:  I think womens recent rejection of feminism can be partly attributed to 
the media but also to mistakes made in the past decade by the feminist 
movement.  As someone said earlier, allowing the original ideas to be 
hijacked by white, middle-class women whose ideas are reformist and anti-
men.

c:  I'm upset by this idea that feminism has failed, we've just started.

c:  The thing about middle-class women...most political organisations have 
middle-class people  in them, its no exception because of the class system.

Tape 2:  Side 1

s:  Can I say something in response to the womens movement being blamed.  
Throughout history, women have been fighting against their oppression.  
It's a media concept to blame feminism.  In the U.S., feminism is a bigger sin 
than Communism.  It's blamed for the death of the traditional family.  It's 
going to be the most enormous thing of all time - its daily life were 
talking about.  There is a move to the right by Western capitalist societies 
and women and children are being hurt the most and will be over the next 
10 years.  How are we going to stop the ball rolling back?

c:  I think, in some way, feminism has failed because in the 60s and 70s, it 
was a big movement of women and men who wanted to change society.  In 
Norway, 50% of the government are women and it means fuck all.  If you 
really want to liberate yourself as a woman...you can't be free as a woman 
in this society.  You have to talk about how to organise with men to create 
the society we want.

c:  I want men to fight alongside me.

c:  Talking about this idea that feminism is dominated by white, middle-class 
women.  I'm white and middle-class and I consider myself to be a feminist.  
Feminism has to look at ways of engaging in cultures other than that one 
culture.  Like how can feminism work in Asian cultures without  being 
culturally imperialist and asserting another hierarchy within those other 
cultures.

c:  I don't criticise middle-class people or white people for getting involved 
in feminism but I do criticise the fact that mainstream feminism, what was 
originally radical feminism which included both genders, did adopt anti-
male, reformist ideas which  don't get them anywhere.

c:  ???? where do you draw the line between having objective criticism and 
saying all men are like that.  I think men have to start questioning their 
own attitudes and turn inwards like women have had to do.

c:  Men are the ones who make the ??? .. most working class believe that 
they are inferior  if they are then told that another group i.e. women are inferior 
of course they are going to be attracted by this idea  - thats not to say that 
men ate inherently evil...

s:  No, I'm not saying that at all

c:  I think all the things that have come out of  this suggest, or I assume, 
that we agree on more or less every thing   but I think that despite what 
women think, feel about men..it doesn't lead to action   it seems that you 
still keep it all inside you.  Its been there since you were so little..but these 
discussions, men talking like this  will lead to action One of the things 
possible is you becoming aware of your own self   

c:   I just wanted  to say about the Child Support Act.   I suppose every body 
knows what it involves, for single parents and their benefits, for the 
absent parent - so that the State can chase an absent parent  - its mainly of 
course single mothers that are attacked  the idea is just to save the 
government money  because any maintenance the absent father pays will 
come straight off the mothers social security. One of the worst things is 
that single mothers are called in for interviews by social security officers 
and subjected to a really horrible interview.. in one case a single mother 
was called  into the office a few weeks after she had her baby she didn't 
know what it was about she thought she might get more money - in fact 
they were after the absent father -  she was  asked horrible, very personal 
questions  about the conditions under which the baby was conceived, 
when did they have sex, to get information about the father. She was totally 
shocked about the whole thing of course..but the thing is it is possible to 
fight back against it. Theres a campaign against the Child Support Act,  
Kings Cross womens centre are involved  and there are other groups 
across the country  involved. Theres a strategy being advocated that 
women should be encouraged not to give info about the absent father but 
we've got to do that in such a way that they say they  don't know where the 
father is or they don't know who the father is because if you just say I'm 
not telling you they will deduct 8 or 9 from your benefit.  In order to do 
that you also have to help them avoid a hostile interrogation 
..accompanying single parents to all interviews we have to build up a 
network of people who are willing to accompany single parents to 
interviews and also to get up a movement identifying any office or officers 
who give  women a bad time  to action such as occupying the office or 
denouncing the officials who do this  

c:  Are you entitled to be accompanied to an interview,?

C:  Yes, although officers will say that's not right or discourage it.. you just 
have to say that she insists, get her to insist.

C:  It was said that the discussion is needs context of class, you're talking 
about the middle class- there are differences among men, differences 
among W, its often said that feminism is related to the middle class but I 
don't really know what middle class means...they have a bit more money 
but there is no real class difference   this has nothing to do with the 
feminist movement although it may cause difficulties between women who 
have left school early and those who have say Higher education but are 
part of the same movement.. I wouldn't say this is a class difference, just a 
problem in communication, in getting messages across.

c:  In terms of what the feminist movement has produced in the past the 
best stuff has been where different problems have been connectedly women - 
sexism, homosexuality, family, health - it seems to me if were going to get 
anywhere - we could go down the road two ways, the way of saying we want 
separate organisations - womens, homosexual organisations - or we could 
say were going to try to use what we have as  revolutionaries  within these 
organisations, where we can come into contact most with people., Whats 
the best way we can put forward our arguments against power 
relationships, subjugation etc. - is it through small organisations like a 
revolutionary Ws group or through other groups, in the workplace for 
instance, community groups, unions. It seems to me there's on argument 
for going outside - it prevents people  from feeling so isolated, its therefore 
important to speak the language of the people we're trying to get to, take 
these ideas on board. The problem is, we haven't found a way...

c: