textfiles/messages/BACKWATER/bw831025.txt

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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 ********************** REMOVED: 25 OCT 83 ****************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
6                     THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
20 use the replace command to replace the line.
21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
23 ========================================
24 
25 Leonard: BWMS RUNS ON AN 8080 PROCESSOR. THE ONLY SOURCE I HAVE IS A
26 PAPER COPY OF A SOURCE THAT WAS CLOSE TO THE REAL CODE THAT RUNS IN
27 BWMS I THEN HAND PATCHED THE MODS TO MAKE BWMS AS YOU SEE IT HERE.
28 THE WHOLE MESS WAS THEN BURNED INTO 2708'S. ALL OF THIS BEING DONE
29 ABOUT 4 YEARS AGO. (THE ORIGINAL CODE WAS WRITTEN IN 1978.)
30 DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION?
31 TO PERSON ASKING ABOUT PNB AND MODEMS:
32 SOUTHERN BELL IS CURRENTLY CHARGING EXTRA IF YOU USE A MODEM ON ONE OF
33 THEIR LINES. THERE IS CURRENTLY A COURT BATTLE GOING ON ABOUT THIS. THERE
34 IS ALSO SOME CONGRESSIONAL ACTION GOING ON AS WELL. YES, MA DOES HAVE 
35 EQUIPMENT THAT CAN DETECT MODEMS (AS WELL AS A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS)
36 MODEMS BEING ONE OF THE MORE EASIER THINGS TO CHECK ON.
37 PNB'S CURRENT STANCE ON THE MODEM ISSUE HAS BEEN 'WHO ME?' AND WILL PROBABLY
38 REMAIN THAT WAY UNTIL THE COURT BATTLE HAS BEEN SETTLED DOWN SOUTH AT WHICH
39 TIME MOST OF THE OTHER OPERATING COMPANIES WILL FOLLOW THE DECISION. BUT
40 KEEP IN MIND THAT THE LOCAL PUC HAS THE LAST SAY IN THESE THINGS, SO YOU NEVER
41 KNOW. BUT ONE PREDICTION I WILL MAKE; IF THE CASE GOES IN FAVOUR OF SOUTHERN
42 BELL MANY INFORMATION PROVIDERS WILL GO UNDER. AMONG THESE BEING SOURCE,
43 COMPUSERVE, MICRONET, ECT. IN THE END THIS WILL HURT MA BELL, FOR SHE IS 
44 CHASING AWAY THE DIGITAL CUSTOMERS. THEY WILL SHIFT TO LESS EXPENSIVE MEANS
45 OF COMMUNICATING. THE FIRST THING THAT COMES TO MIND IS THE CABLE TV NETWORK.
46 SINCE IT IS ALREADY INSTALLED AND HAS AVAILABLE BANDS WITHIN IT IT WOULD BE
47 A SIMPLE MATTER TO ADD THIS TO IT. WHY MA WOULD WANT TO CHASE AWAY THE 
48 DIGITAL USERS IS QUITE BEYOND ME THOUGH. (PROBABLY CAUSED BY SOME NERD AT
49 THE TOP WHO HAS NO IDEA WHAT-SO-EVER AS TO WHAT IS GOING ON UNDER HIS NOSE.)
50 ************* CISTOP MIKEY ************** 21 OCT 83 **********************
51 
52 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
53 
54 Aaron:  I hope I have not given the wrong impression.  I did not mean to
55 suggest that happiness is a thing to be avoided.  I agree completely that
56 a more even distribution of said substance as well as an overall
57 increase in its abundance is in order.  There are those suffering the pains of hunger, as you mentioned, as well as
58 those at the opposite extreme, who in their sheltered existances, have never
59 experienced pain or sorrow which I feel are two important constituents of
60 life.  These two groups would benefit greatly by a mutual sharing of their
61 happiness and suffering.  As for the ideal ratio of happiness:suffering, I
62 am not sure one exists for humankind
63 as a whole.  I rathar suspect that it
64 is determined on an individual basis, but that it is always less than 100%.
65 
66 Alex:  Well thank you!  I am not sure, but I believe you had not yet d
67 discovered BWMS a month or two ago when there was considerable discussion
68 of this subject.  I found, then too,
69 of this subject.  I found, then too, that I was not alone in my feelings
70 in that regard.  CYM and Hrothgar have also expressed similar viewpoints and
71 presented excellant arguments in their favor.  Unfortunately our primary
72 catalyst "d" has apparently abandoned BWMS, so at present the arguement is
73 rather one sided.  I have long avoided attatchment to any organized religion
74 because of the rigorous definitions fo their beliefs, such as the bible,
75 and Koran, which force those who subscribe to that religion into hypocrisy.
76 A persons beliefs are a product of the summation of his experiences, and 
77 since no two persons have had exactly the same experiences; therefore, no
78 two persons have exactly the same beliefs.  So to say that all Christians 
79 believe the teachings of the bible is to force hypocrisy upon them and those
80 who lack the fortitude to think for themselves, will eventually succumb.
81 
82 Dave:  Good question.  I have often considered how I might contribute to
83 the betterment of the human condition, but I'm afraid the conclusions I have
84 drawn from this consideration would not be appropriate for most Americans.
85 As I mentioned earlier, I feel that the elimination of Christianity would
86 prove very beneficial to the welfare of Americans.  How this could be im-
87 plemented is debatable.  Of the organized religions that I have mentioned
88 avoiding is organized atheism, but recently I have such organization may
89 be the only hope of extinguishing that which should have died long ago.  
90 It is futile for individuals to affect a massive organization unless they,
91 too, form such.  Forced hypocrisy may be avoided by proclaiming only one
92 belief common to all of its members;
93 the belief that deities exist only in the minds of those who wish them to
94 exist.  There is a rathar large and active atheist organization, "American
95 Atheists" which has a chapter in Portland, but my impression is that they
96 concern themselves largely with Atheist rights, while I am more interested
97 in the wellbeing of future generations than protecting my own rights.  If
98 anyone has inside info regarding "AA" or other Atheist organizations I 
99 would be interested in hearing about it.  Also I would like to hear from
100 CYM, Hrothgar, Alex and anybody else regarding the question of organized
101 atheism.  Is this an appropriate first step?
102 
103 'XXXXXXX':  I'm not sure how to respond to your message; the tone
104 was one of disagreement but the meaning corresponded largely to my
105 own messages.  Particularly the latter half of your message I find no dis-
106 agreement with whatsoever.  Could you
107 possibly clarify the first sentance, though.  Were you implying that the
108 freedom to disregard commitments and to disrupt society is favorable?  If
109 so, then we do differ considerably on that point.  What concerns me most
110 is that there are so many who feel no
111 moral obligations contrary to these "freedoms".  Your comment that people
112 are like kids illustrates the consequences of this amorality, although
113 I feel it was a bit overgeneralized.
114 It might be more appropriate (but admittedly still generalized to an ex-
115 tent) to say that American people are like American kids or vise versa.
116 (I am asuming that by "people" you mean adults)  The reason for this is
117 obvious.  Is it not the nature of the teacher-student relationship that the
118 student learns from the teacher?  So when Johnny's Daddy dumps Johnny's
119 Mommy and runs away with his secretary, what can we expect Johhny to 
120 learn from this but that commitments are unimportant and need be honored
121 only when it is convenient or pleasant to do so.  And what is he to learn
122 when mommy consistantly leaves him with a baby-sitter while she goes 
123 partying except that partying is more important than responsibility and
124 that party-goer's company is more enjoyable than his.
125 It is true also that Japanese (if you will forgive my repeated reference
126 thereto) adults are like Japanese kids or vise versa, for the same reason.
127 But Japanese in general are considerably different from Americans, and 
128 the kids of each culture exemplify this.  I found a pleasant change to
129 have a quiet peaceful meal in a Tokyo restaurant without having some un-
130 disciplined kid screaming in my ear.  It was even more pleasant to find
131 that this was the rule rather than the exception (even in McDonalds).  
132 This phenomenon is the result of a type of family relationship that has
133 not existed in the US for quite some time.  That is a relationship where
134 the kid is made aware that his parents major concern in life is his well-
135 being instead of their own.  With this knowlege he has no reason for re-
136 bellion, and every reason to respect their requests.
137 This, I feel, is the primary reason that juvenile delinquency and, there-
138 fore, violent crime in Japan are almost nonexistant.  If antisocial
139 behavior is a result of a free society, maybe that should indicate that
140 "freedom", at least by that definition, is not necessarily desirable.
141 From the point of your comment regarding total happiness to the end
142 of your message, I am in complete agreement.
143 
144                                                     Dirty Ol' Man
145 
146 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~
147 
148 DOM: "Is this an appropriate first step?"  Yes, if your goal is defined as
149 applied to the smallest segment of societal neighbors that is significant to
150 you.  Seems to me that you have your sights set unobtainably high and that
151 interim disappointment may dissuade you from continuing ACTION toward your
152 desired change.  But if you DO it, rather than just TALK it -- even tho' I
153 may not agree with your intent -- then I will applaud in the one sense.
154 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Dave~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
155 A while back people were talking about the idea of Utopia.  As I recall, the
156 source of the word Utopia means, 'nowhere.'  We can take our cue from this.  Our concept of an ideal world would change
157 as our current situation changes, so I think that 'Utopia' is like 'tomorrow', it's always very close but never arrives.
158 DOM:  Unfortunately, organized atheism was given a bad name by the various Communist countries.  Marx was correct in that
159 religion was 'the opiate of the masses', but his followers made the mistake of attempting to replace one religion with
160 another, Communism.  I agree that elimination of religion would improve the world tremendously, however.
161 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Anon :::::::::::::::
162 }
163 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]                               
164      RE. UTOPIA: THE DEGREES OF HAPPINESS (AND UNHAPPINESS) A PERSON CAN
165 FEEL SEEM UNRELATED TO ANY GENERAL MEASUREMENT.  A PERSON WHO HAS HAD
166 NOTHING BUT SORROW AND MISERY IN THEIR LIFE CAN FIND GREAT JOY IN A
167 SIMPLE GIFT, OR THE FIRST SOLID MEAL IN A LONG TIME.  CONVERSELY, A
168 PERSON WHO HAS HAD NEARLY EVERYTHING THEY COULD WANT IN LIFE CAN FEEL
169 EXTREME SORROW WHEN THEIR FAVORITE POLO TEAM LOSES, OR IF THEY CAN'T 
170 HAVE THE NEWEST AND MOST ADVANCED TOY.
171      FROM THIS IT WOULD SEEM THAT SORROW AND JOY WILL NEVER BE ELIMINATED
172 DUE TO OUR SEEMING NEED TO FEEL THESE EMOTIONS.  IF WE HAVE NO TERRIBLE
173 EVENTS IN OUR LIVES TO FORCE GREAT SORROW, WE WILL FEEL IT FROM EVENTS
174 LESS TERRIBLE.  IF WE HAVE NO GREAT EVENTS TO CAUSE EXTREME JOY, WE WILL
175 FEEL THIS JOY FROM SMALL EVENTS.
176      I WOULD THEN CONCLUDE THAT IF UTOPIA IS TO BE REACHED, THE MEASURE
177 OF SORROW AND JOY (HAPPINESS/UNHAPPINESS, OR WHATEVER TERMS YOU WISH)
178 CANNOT BE A DETERMINING FACTOR.  HOW THEN CAN WE DEFINE UTOPIA?
179                                        
180      DJJ, ONE WAY TO DEFEND AGAINST "RIGHTS" BEING ABRIDGED BY THE MAJORITY
181 IS FOR ALL TO REMEMBER THAT THOSE "RIGHTS" ARE A CREATION OF SOCIETY, NOT
182 SOME PRE-EXISTANT SET OF RULES.  PEOPLE QUITE OFTEN HAVE THEIR "RIGHTS"
183 TAKEN AWAY WHEN THEY BELIEVE THAT THE "RIGHTS" ARE SOMEHOW A NATURAL LAW.
184 THEY TREAT IT AS IF REPEALING THEIR RIGHTS WAS AKIN TO REPEALING THE LAW
185 OF GRAVITY.  WHEN THEY FINALLY REALIZE THEIR "RIGHTS" ARE GONE, THEY ARE
186 LOST.
187      ANOTHER IS AN EXTREME CONCERN FOR THE "RIGHTS" OF OTHERS.  WHEN
188 YOU'RE READY TO DEFEND OTHERS, THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO DEFEND YOU, AND 
189 IT WILL ALSO MAKE YOU MORE AWARE OF HOW TENUOUS SUCH THINGS ARE.
190                                        
191      DOM, YOU'RE QUITE RIGHT ABOUT SOME FEELING IT UNETHICAL TO CONSIDER
192 THE SHORTCOMINGS OF AMERICA.  IT SEEMS TO ME THAT A VIABLE AND ENERGETIC
193 SOCIETY WELCOMES SUCH DEBATE IN ORDER TO EVOLVE TO MEET THE CHALLENGES
194 OF AN INCREASINGLY COMPLEX AND CHANGING WORLD.  WITHOUT SUCH DEBATE, WE
195 CAN ONLY STAGNATE, AND WILL EVENTUALLY DIE AS A CULTURE.
196      RE. YOUR (DOM) COMMENTS ON JAPANESE CULTURE AND SOCIETY, YOU SEEM
197 FAMILIAR WITH TAOISM.  ARE YOU?
198                                        
199      ALEX, SORRY IF I TOOK YOUR METAPHOR LITERALLY.  I DIDN'T REALIZE IT
200 WAS A METAPHOR AS THERE WAS NO MENTION OF CORPORATIONS, AND I NEVER
201 THOUGHT OF "HAND-TO-MOUTH" IN THOSE TERMS, NOR DID I CONNECT THE TERM 
202 "LIFESTYLES" WITH CORPORATIONS AS THEY ARE LIFEFORMS ONLY IN AN ALLEGORICAL
203 FORM.  AS YOU HAVE EXPLAINED IT, I FIND THAT I AGREE WITH YOU.
204                                        
205 TO: WHOMEVER
206 RE: MODEMS
207 
208      PNB IS A UNION SHOP, AND THE MANAGEMENT PERSONAL DON'T USE TOOLS.
209 I CAN'T ACCEPT THE OPINION OF UPPER-LEVEL MANAGEMENT ABOUT TECHNICAL MATTERS
210 AS THEY AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH CURRENT TECHNOLOGY IN ANY WAY OTHER THAN 
211 A SALES AND PROMOTIONAL SENSE.  MOST HAVEN'T USED TOOLS SINCE THE DAYS
212 WHEN STEP-BY-STEP AND CROSS-BAR OFFICES WERE THE CURRENT STATE OF THE ART,
213 AND KNOW LITTLE OR NOTHING OF WHAT IS POSSIBLE IN AN ESS OR EAX C.O..  
214 BAD WOULD BE A BETTER SOURCE FOR SUCH INFORMATION SINCE HE IS A BELL
215 TECHNICIAN OR INSTALLER (I'M NOT SURE WHICH).                          
216                                        
217 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM![][][][][][]
218 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 22 Oct 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
219   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   14:41   <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
220      The wind blusters against the Inn sign on an afternoon with swiftly-
221 moving clouds, nosing at the door crevices and merrily swirling the leaves
222 into frenzied dances in the courtyard.  Through them strides a figure with
223 dark tousled hair and bright, expectant eyes, carrying ancient parchments
224 along with the freshly-inked in an untidy pile in her arms.
225      DOM, I give you a grand sweeping curtsy and a sparkling smile!  Though
226 I tumbled out of the Inn in a tremendous hurry the last evening, I caught
227 the beginning of your courteous address and was reassured of your intent.
228 For a while, yes, I was obliged to curtail my visits (and my living room
229 is still the sembelence of a holocaust) but I will rejoin you soon.  But
230 now I have kept too many would-be visitors at bay with my leisurely
231 wandering, so I must tantalize you further by holding my peace.
232 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     d     <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
233 !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
234 To:  ALL
235 In regard to general statements toward Christianity, it becomes clear
236 that most are not aware of pseudo-Christianity as opposed to the 
237 "real thing."  This is not an opinion, rather a truism from the
238 Christian reference, the Bible.  Consider Matthew 7:13,14:
239    "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road
240 leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it;
241 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life,
242 and few are the ones finding it."
243 This was spoken to Christ's disciples during the Sermon on the Mount, not
244 to so-called 'unbelievers'.  Also, verses 22,23 say:
245    "Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy
246 in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful
247 works in your name?'  And yet then I will confess to them:  I never knew
248 you!  Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness."
249 So it is plain from this that the vas majority of so-called Christians
250 are not the real thing.  Also an apostate form of Christianity was expected
251 in fact guaranteed!  Second Thessalonians 2:2-5 states:
252    "Not to be quickly shaken from your reason, nor to be excited either 
253 through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a
254 letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.
255 Let no one seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the
256 apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son 
257 of destruction.  He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone
258 who is called "god" or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the
259 temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god.  Do you not remem-
260 ber that, while I was yet with you, I used to tell you these things?"
261 Again, this was written to the Christian congregation, not to 'unbelievers'
262 This is how apostate Christianity manifests itself.  By setting itself up
263 as "god" over its followers.  Even to the point of invalidating scriptural
264 law.  Apostate Christianity in this manner stagnates free thinking, because
265 it imposes tradition, church theology and interpretation over truth.  In 
266 this way, true Christianity is hard to identify, which is why the founder,
267 Christ, said at Matthew 7:7,8:
268    "Keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you 
269 will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you.  For everyone
270 asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking it
271 will be opened."
272 Any-hey, the point is that Christianity (pseudo of course) is indeed a
273 major contributing factor to world unrest, war, social problems, and is a
274 definite barrier to Egalatarianism, whereas the opposite is true of TRUE
275 Christianity.  Therefore, the "narrow way", being in the minority, has a
276 low profile in comparison and is clouded by the acts of false Christianity,
277 which was also guaranteed and expected, as shown by 2 Peter, chapter 2.
278    "However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as
279 there will also be false teachers among you.  These very ones will
280 quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that
281 bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.  Furthermore,
282 many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these,
283 the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively.  But these men, like
284 unreasoning animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed, will,
285 in the things of which they are ignorant and speak abusively, even 
286 suffer destruction in their own course of destruction, wronging them-
287 selves as a reward for wrongdoing.  They consider luxurious living in
288 the daytime a pleasure.  They are spots and blemishes, indulging with
289 unrestrained delight in their deceptive teachings while feasting together
290 with you.  They have eyes full of adultery and unable to desist from sin,
291 and they entice unsteady souls.  They have a heart trained in covetousness.
292 They are accursed children.  Abandoning the straight path, they have been
293 misled...These are fountains without water, and mists driven by a violent
294 storm, and for them the blackness of darkness has been reserved.  For they
295 utter swelling expressions of no profit, and by the desires of the flesh
296 and by loose habits they entice those who are just escaping from people
297 who conduct themselves in error.  While they are promising them freedom,
298 they themselves are existing as slaves of corruption.  For whoever is
299 overcome by another is enslaved by this one...The saying of the true
300 proverb has happened to them:  "The dog has returned to its own vomit,
301 and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire."
302 (Sound like any so-called "Christian" religious leaders you know?!)
303 !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!  DEBORAH    4:46 PM
304 
305 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]                               
306 
307      YES, IT SOUNDS LIKE A LOT OF WHAT I SEE ON CERTAIN CABLE CHANNELS.
308 SOME OF THESE "LEADERS" OF EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY ARE REPULSIVE 
309 MANIPULATORS OF THE BASIC GOOD INTENTS OF THEIR FOLLOWERS.  I FIND MUCH
310 THAT IS GOOD IN BASIC CHRISTIAN PHILOSOPHY, BUT THE THINGS THAT ARE DONE
311 AND SAID IN ITS NAME BY THESE CREATURES ARE WHAT DESTROY ITS VALUE IN THE
312 EYES OF EVERYONE ELSE.  AND ITS A SHAME, BECAUSE CHRISTIANITY HAS MUCH 
313 TO OFFER, EVEN TO THOSE THAT DON'T BELIEVE IN CHRIST.
314                                        
315      d, WELCOME!  AND PLEASE HURRY BACK, YOU ARE MISSED!
316                                        
317      ON THE UTOPIA QUESTION, DID ANYONE WATCH THE OLD CLASSIC "LOST
318 HORIZON" ON CINEMAX RECENTLY?  VERY LITTLE PHILOSOPHY IS EXPRESSED IN 
319 IT, BUT THE EMOTIONAL YEARNINGS FOR UTOPIA ARE GRASPED QUITE EFFECTIVELY.
320 PLUS, RONALD COLMAN!   GASP!  EXCUSE ME WHILE I DROOL.......
321                                       
322 YES, I KNOW, VERY IMMATURE PAM.                                        
323                                        
324 SO WHAT!!  WE ALL CAN ACT LIKE CHILDREN AT TIMES.........
325                                       
326 [][][][][][][][][][][]PAM![][][][][][][]
327 ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
328 DOM: While I do agree with your basic sentiments re: Japan life style.
329 I don't think that I would like to live like that. I find the very
330 regimented life style to be too restrictive for my liking. 
331 PAM: Immature? Depends on your point of view. Each person has enjoyments
332 and pleasures that are fitting to them. To say that there is something
333 wrong with having these pleasures simply because someone else does not
334 find them to be enjoyable in my opinion is wrong. Indeed, some would 
335 carry that to the opposite extreme. "What? You don't like Fara Fawceit?
336 There must be something wrong with you. Are you gay?"
337 OTHER: A quote I once came across I think is fitting to the general flow
338 of the conversation here. "I do not trust anyone who says that they are
339 doing something for my own good. For I do not know what they are really
340 after. I would rather deal with someone who states his objectives up front
341 as at least I will know what to expect." I have generally found that those
342 who profess loudly about their intent to help you are usualy after 
343 something for themselves. Those who truly are out to help do it quietly
344 and expect no reward or thanks. They are happy to just know that they 
345 have done something to help improve life a little. Strangly enough these
346 deeds are often the ones that are remembered best. I also am at ease
347 dealing with those who have no intention of assiting me as long as they
348 have no intention of hurting either. This is simply a business deal, and
349 is treated that way.
350 ???????????? The In Sane Scientist ??????????? 22 OCT 83 ???????????????
351 to: all
352 from: an engineer
353 re: modems
354 There is no equipment that can test a line and determine that a modem is
355 being used when the line is not in use. The resistance of the line can 
356 be measured, i.e. the ringer eq number. When the line is in use the
357 line can be monitored by the tel co and automatic equipment can 
358 determine the signals present and make a determination that the signal
359 is probably from a modem from the frequencies being transmitted. 
360 However r this is not likely and could be subject to the legal 
361 question of monitoring each lin.
362 
363 to: "engineer"
364 from: your loving public
365 re: modems
366 
367 Of course you can't test for equipment not in use.  I don't think the 
368 question is whether you can.  But not likely?  No, not likely, but very
369 possible if needed.And whether you know it or not, you are monitored 
370 quite often by automatic equippment.
371 from: engineer
372 re: modems
373 like I said a line can be monitored, but even if modem type 
374 frequencies are detected. It is questionable whether the information
375 can be used to charge the modem owner due to wiretapping laws. This is 
376 not the bible, since I don't work for the telco
377 HI, I'm a KayPro II who had your number  passed by a VIC 20.  He had no
378 ............................................
379 Dom, in answer to most of your questions, as to the bad things in life,
380 I fear that if you really look int crime, etc yo will find more in most
381 foreign countries, but our better police (not good, just better) and better
382 reporting( also more honest) make it seem more aparent here. As to divorce
383 adn MA 7, where els CAN you? MA 7? Why not? everyone has to set his or 
384 her own margins anyway. Even the 128's can do it. Is it so dificult for 
385 you?                            I hope this isn't too sore a subject.
386 Anon, obviously I don't know who you are since you are anonomous, but
387 I can only judge by your statements, which are those of a self centered
388 parasite. If others, even many others cheat, it is no excuse, only a
389 childish person could claim otherwise.
390 I feel all humans should be treated equally before the law, but the laws
391 of reality are strict. Most of us contribute to the human condition, and
392 help us to a better life (not all, of course & these drones should be
393 excised from the race.) When there is a real bind, and we are in a "zero
394 sum game" I will side with my personal friends over others, but this is
395 an exception. The Earth isn't big enough for going our own separate ways.
396 Utopia has a bad name since it implies the unattainable, but most of
397 what it stand for (universal happiness, etc) is not so far out. We will
398 be happy only when we have the good things we expect and desire, and
399 don't suffer from what we feel we shouldn't. From what I have read of
400 anthroplogy, most cultures are about equally happy, from marginal hunters
401 to the most opulent, but the happiest members os each culture are usually
402 the better off. We can not supply everything anyone could want, but we
403 could easily meet all of everyone's needs, and perhaps reduce his need
404 to fear.
405 The use of drugs is not a result of freedom. It is an attempt to escape
406 a world the user can't cope with, among other reasons. Some are alos
407 also pleasant to use. The useage is usually higher in poor countries,
408 they have more to escape from.
409 Modems: if a 'PNB supervisor' says he doesn't know of a device to detect
410 modems, he may not, but he doesn't know what he is talking about. 
411 I have personally installed and used such a device. We were not looking
412 for modems, but for 'blue boxes', which are much harder to find since
413 they are on the line for only a very short time. The thing looks at about
414 100 trunks at a time, and could be easily altered to detect modems; there
415 are also several other things which can do the job. Please note that there
416 is no law against the phone company listening to you, only against using
417 what you say. How you say it isn't protected. We don't detect the modem
418 only the tones it sends when in use. Personally, I doubt that PNB will
419 take much actiona against modems, as it is thinking about getting into the
420 business itself. (not official, just my personal guess)
421 As soon as the TV cable companies get into the act, the special charges
422 will go away, but then with deregualtion, anything a cable company can 
423 do, the (much bigger and richer) phone company can also do, or try to.
424 ///////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
425 
426 
427 
428 Well, BAD, you just proved my point.  You could have either:
429        1.Supported (with facts) your characterization of me as a 'parasite.'
430 or     2.Withdrawn your statement.
431 
432 If you have done (1.) you would have demonstrated your ESP.  If you had done (2.) you would have demonstrated your logic.
433 As is, you did neither, demonstrating your illogic.  As I stated before, you have NO KNOWLEDGE of either my production or
434 consumption, and can therefore come to no valid conclusion about my net benefit or cost to society.
435 Further, you blindly ignored the fact that my arguments were those of a person who wished to actually avoid all forms of
436 parasitism, benign or otherwise.  If I were arguing on a level similar to yours, I might claim that you were being a
437 parasite on the rest of the world, too, but fortunately I recognize that such claims are pointless and unprovable.
438 
439      I call on all the other users of this system to recognize and point out to BAD that he has made a nasty and quite
440 unprovable slander on my character, totally without any factual evidence, and has not taken my generous offer for him to 
441 withdraw his statement.  It is one thing to state opinions on matters of general knowledge, but he is demonstrating
442 a propensity to claim, as fact, things that he has no first- or even second-hand knowledge of.
443     He is showing a definite anti-social streak in this disregard for truth and honesty, and is clearly not above using 
444 personal attacks as a substitute for reasoned discussion.  He has shown no improvement recently, and is in fact getting
445 worse by the day.  He will probably not respond to my complaints, but I feel that he may still be sensitive to the consensus
446 of the rest of the users.
447 
448       We have a good thing going here.  Because we are mostly anonymous, I would have thought that personal attacks were 
449 difficult or impossible.  We are what we type, not who we are, where we are, or what our habits might be.  As long as we
450 remain thus, intelligent discussion is possible.  A person might, for example, argue for the legalization of all drugs, 
451 even though he might never have used them, without fearing that such a position would be interpreted as a reflection of
452 his personal activities.   This is as it is, and thus it should remain.  So let's agree to avoid personal smears, and
453 get down to the business of politics, sex, fucking, money and all the other little things that make life worthwile.
454 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Anon ::::::::::::::
455 
456 yes, especially sex.
457 
458 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
459 Pam, is that the one where they find the shangri-la in some
460      mountain range? Everbody is over 400 years old, etc?
461 
462 How do we know which "christianity" is the "narrow path"? In fact,
463      can any of them be considering the various translations in the Biblical
464      texts? Is it possible that a religous entity dosn't have to be 
465      "accurate" to be valuble to the current situation mankind is in? For
466      example, examine the Mormons. The basic texts/belief structure of the
467      LDS philosophy is purley arbitrary; it is, at worst, a fiction no 
468      better than "Gone with the Wind", or at best, an account of an indi-
469      vidual who had a spiritual experience, and let his imagination get
470      a little ahead of him. Yet "Mormonism", as it exists today, is 
471      quite a valid religous entity. The tenants of Mormonism are basicly
472      "positive". Don't kill anybody, Don't drink, Give to the poor, etc...
473      Very little of the LDS structure or of the Mormons themselves could be
474      considered "harmfull" in any form. In fact, isn't it better to have 
475      LDS than not? If the Mormons weren't around, how many people would be
476      wandering around without ANY sense of moral structure? I admit that
477      most of LDS philosophy is "simplified" to be attractive to the LCD,
478      yet it is certainly better than leaving the more gullible out as
479      prey for the less scrupules "cults". How do any of us know that 
480      Joseph Smith wasn't some smart cookie who had a plan to keep all
481      epsilon-minuses out of "trouble", so that the delta-pluses (sp?)
482      could enjoy higher pursuits without abandoning a large percentage
483      of the population to lawlessness for want of a "simplifed" social
484      order for these types. I strongly suspect that the "president(s)"
485      of LDS inc. today are simply people who are smart enough to realize
486      what is going on, AND smart enough to realize that it is, for the
487      moment, a good thing; and an endevor worth supporting. If I said to
488      any of the BW users ( grand Layde of Dragons and DEBORAH excepted,
489      of course): "You have the opportunity to solve 90% of the worlds 
490      problems for 99% of the populataion. Unfortunatly, you will be giving
491      them a social structure based purely on fiction. It is a GOOD social
492      structure (in every sense of "GOOD"), and carefully engineered,
493      yet arbitrary in the sense that it has nothing to do (except for some
494      niceties, like a God) with what you and I know is the "truth".      "
495      Mormonism, or the Rajneeshees, offer this with NEAR GAURENTEED
496      results, if we could just let them do their respective things.
497      postscript: (if that mangled hashing of ideas can be labled a 
498     "script")   I have nothing against the LDS. In fact, MANY of my 
499     friends are of that persuasion. I will not stoop to slandeing them,
500     raise an eyebrow, yes, but not slander. Why? Because they are, basicly,
501     "good people". Misled, yes, but none the less "good". And who knows;
502     maybe LDS  IS the "true path!" 
503     all: my apologies to all who have to struggle thru this mess, its late
504     , and this is unedited.
505            poll:
506                  how many of you would take me up on the 90/99 offer?
507                  how many of you are getting my TABs and LINEFEEDs as
508 real entities so this text is halfway readable?
509 in fact, here is a one line test.....
511 is "middle" in the middle of a blank screen?
512 Aaron
513 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> very late... <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
514 h
515 Here is a new debate that I think we can start...Do private
516 companies (i.e. Willamette subscription Television), have the
517 signal???  Is there such a thing as "PIRATING" or do the air
518 waves (whether radio or microwave) belong to all of us or just
519 some of us.
520  
521 Signed,
522   Henry B. O'Sullivan (HBO)
523 -------------------------------
524 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
525 I think that the fee for receiving HBO or some other such channel is NOT for
526 the airwaves themselves, i.e., we're not paying for a good. We're paying for
527 the service that HBO provides in broadcasting all of the different shows and
528 things that we watch. Looking at it in this light, I don't think that it's
529 right to pirate the "air waves" from HBO. After all, they are providing a ser-
530 vice that many people ask for and if everyone starts taking their products for
531 free, where does it leave them?
532 - - - - - - - - Mad Quark - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
533 ################################################################################
534 ON THE QUESTION OF AIRWAVE PIRACY: IF THEY SEND THEIR PROGRAMING OVER THE PUBLIC
535 AIRWAVES THEN IT IS NOT PIRACY TO ACCEPT THEM WIYITHOUT PAYING FOR THEM, HOWEVER
536 IF THEY ARE SENT ON WIRES, CABLES, MECHANICAL DEVICES THAT REQUIRE ONE TO TAP
537 INTO PHYSICALLY THEN THIS WOULD BE PIRACY. I CAN'T STOP YOU FROM ENJOYING THE 
538 FLOWERS IN MY GARDEN EVEN THOUGH YOU DID NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THEIR PLANTING AND
539 CARE. BUT THEY BECOME PUBLIC DOMAIN UNLESS I BUILD A SOLID BARRIER TO EXCLUDE
540 YOUR EYES FROM MY EFFORTS. AS FAR AS I
541 CAN TELL THE AIR IS STILL FREE (AT LEAST FOR NOW) SO ANY THING THAT IT CONTAINS 
542 IS ALSO FREE. I HAPPEN TO CHOOSE TO PAY FOR THE DELIVERY OF HBO ETC THROUGH THE
543 CABLE SYSTEM AS IT IS REALLY LESS COSTLYFOR ME THAN TO GO OUT AND BUY A DOWNCONV
544 ER/ANTENNAE, ALSO LESS TROUBLE AS I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT REPAIRS AND UPKEEP
545 . WHEN IT COMES TO THOSE THAT WANT TO GO TO THE EXPENSE OF CIRCUMVENTING THE CAB
546 LE COMPANIES THEN THAT IS THEIR PEROGOTIVE. NUF SAID:
547 
548 ###################C.Y.M.##################################10/23 12:28PM########
549 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
550 
551 DOM,
552     KNOWING VERY LITTLE REGARDING "AA" I WILL REFRAIN SIGHTING THAT AS THE
553 "PATH". BUT AS FOR A START TOWARDS A MORE EQUITABLE I FEEL IT WARRENTS FURTHER
554 INVESIGATION. MONDAY I WILL CONTACT THEIR REPRESENTATIVE HERE IN PORTLAND 
555 AND BE PERHAPS MORE INFORMED AS TO THEIR PERSPECTIVES ON RELIGION AND THEIR
556 OWN ORGANIZATIONAL TENETS.
557 
558   THE HYPOCRICY OF REGIMENTED RELIGION HOW THAT STRIKES A DISSONANT BUT
559 FAMILIAR CHORD IN MY OWN HISTORY. THE LAST TWO YEARS OF MY HIGH SCHOOL CARRER
560 WERE SPENT UNDER THE "BENIGN" TUTELAGE OF JESUITS AT AN ALL-MALE BOARDING 
561 SCHOOL ( NOW EXTINCT ) . I HAVE EXPERIENCED FIRST HAND THE RATH RESULTING 
562 FROM OPINIONS NOT BEING IN ACCORDANCE WITH THEIR DOCTRINES .
563   THE PARADOXES THEY EXIBIT TO THE SOCIETY THEY SUPPOSEDLY SERVE INDICATE 
564 A PROFOUND DISREGARD TO THE REALITY OF THAT SOCIETY.
565 I SIGHT THEIR VIEW OF THE ROLE OF WOMEN IN THE CHURCH ( SUBSERVANT )
566 THE ABJECT CONDEMNATION OF BIRTH CONTROL IN AN EVER MORE CROWDED WORLD 
567 AND THE STEADFAST RESOLVE OF THE
568 "INDESTRUCTIBILITY OF MARRIAGE" TO NAME A FEW.
569 AN INSTITUTION ONE WOULD BE HARD PRESSED TO CALL RESPONSIVE TO THE PRESSURES
570 AND CHANGES IN A DYNAMIC SOCIETY IT SERVES 
571 
572 BAD,
573    AS FOR THE DETERMINATION OF THE PARASITICAL COEFFICIENT ( PC ) I AM AFRAID
574 THERE IS NO BASIS FOR A CONCLUSION WITHIN YOUR TEXT. AND YOUR COMMENTS ON 
575 THE EXCISION OF DRONES IS FAR TOO REMINICENT OF ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL WHO COST
576 MANKIND A MEAR 6 MILLION SUCH "DRONES"
577 
578 
579 AARON,
580 
581  AHHHHH   THE "90/99 PERCENT SOLUTION"
582 
583 INTERESTING THOUGHT ........BUT WOULD IT BE THAT SUCESSFUL?
584 EVENTUALLY INDIVIDUALS WOULD RECOGNIZE THE FRAUD ..... WHAT THEN ANOTHER RUSE ?
585 WHY NOT BEGIN WITH FACTS AND FOSTER A RATIONAL RESPONSIVE GROUP FROM THE 
586 BEGINING ?
587 
588 
589                       << ALEX>>
590 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
591 
592 About the bombing in Beriut, I think we should nuke Iran, if thats not
593 possible then the CIA should assasinate several of their leaders
594 
595 ................................................................................
596 DOM: I'm sorry, but if you want to "eliminate" Christianity, I find YOU more
597 offensive than any of "them". I see no reason for interfering with someone's
598 beliefs. UN The ONLY justification for interfering with another person is when
599 their ACTIONS endanger OTHERS (if they want to hurt THEMSELVES, who cares?).
600 I admit that there would still be some problems, but it might work better than
601 most others systems. (OOPS, that should be "harm or endanger", not just
602 "endanger"). 
603 If someone's beliefs are DEMONSTRABLY at odds with the universe, it will soon
604 become VERY obvious. As for the "not proven" aspects of their beliefs (e.g. the
605 existence of God), if it can't be proved/disproved then Wwho are YOU to say that
606 they shouldn't believe them?
607 _____________________________Leonard____________________________________________
608 WELL NOW!
609 DEAR PAM: LOST HORIZEN A FAVORITE OF MINE, JUST CHECKED THE STACKS IN
610 THE GARAGE AND COULDN'T FIND IT. WANTED TO COMPARE AMOUNT OF ACTUAL PHILOSOPHY
611 IN THE MOVIE TO THE BOOK, BUT CAN'T UNTILL I FIND IT. LIKE THE 'SIDHARTHA'
612 OF HERMAN HESS AND SEVERAL OF THE WORKS OF RUDYARD KIPLING, L-H WAS A
613 SUCCESS ON TWO LEVELS: THE FIRST BEING THAT OF THE ENCHANTING AND FAR AWAY
614 ADVENTURE AND THE OTHER BEING THE GENTLE INTRODUCTION TO EUROPEAN READERS
615 OF A LITTLE ASIAN PHILOSOPHY AND RELIGION. FIRST READ L-H AS A CHILD AND
616 NEVER FORGOT IT. P.S. AM INTERESTED IN TAO-SHAOLIN-ZEN AREA MYSELF IF YOU'D
617 CARE TO DISCUSS IT. 
618 DEAR DOM: NOTE ABOVE TO PAM. THESE ARE NOT RELIGIONS. RE:DAVE AND *ACTION*
619 I AGREE WITH HIM THAT SOME ACTION IS DESIRABLE, BUT LETS KEEP PRIORITIES
620 ORGANIZED. ALSO, I HAVE SOME BACKGROUND IN POLITICAL ACTIVISM AND KNOW
621 HOW TOUGH IT REALLY CAN BE TO GET ANYTHING DONE TO BETTER THE WORLD FROM
622 THE EXPERIENCE OF HAVING TRIED. ONLY RARELY CAN ONE DO ANYTHING MORE THAN
623 TEND ONES OWN YARD. GIVEN THE LIMITED AMOUNT ONE PERSON CAN REALLY DO, I
624 THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO CHOOSE ONE'S FIELD OF ACTION CAREFULLY. I AM
625 FORCED TO SAY THAT I THINK COMBATTING CHRISTIANITY IS NOT AT THE TOP OF MY
626 LIST. BESIDES, SPEAKING OUT AS YOU ARE IS THE APPROPRIATE ACTION ON THAT.
627 BUT, "IF YOU'RE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM" I TOO WOULD BE IN FAVOR OF DOING SOMETHING. I HAVE BEEN 
628 STAGNANT POLITICALLY TOO LONG MYSELF, HAVING BECOME DEEPLY CYNICAL AFTER THE FIRST CONTACT OF MY IDEALS WITH REALPOLITIC.
629 AS MANY AS 100,000,000 AFRICANS MAY STARVE IN THE NEXT TWO YEARS - HOW ABOUT SOME EFFORT THERE? !!!!!HROTHGAR!!!!!