textfiles/messages/BACKWATER/bw830604.txt

NUMBER OF LINES: 629 
1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 ********************** REMOVE: 4 JUN 83 ****************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
6                     THIS SYSTEM.
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23 ========================================
24 
25 After re-reading the contents of disk B I think I'm about to croak.
26 ````````````````
27 ..............................
28 Mike, why all the excitement about what an explosion in space sounds
29 like? If you are close, the vapors released will strike you, and who
30 knows what it would sound like. (Maybe "bang"?) The effect on your
31 radio is better known, though ("snap, crackle, and pop).
32    The other question is what would it look like. (Has anyone seen
33 one? The neatly defined blobs of fire are very unlikely, as these
34 would be caused by the pressure of, as, air. Also, they would be 
35 MUCH SLOWER than in the movies. I suspect not very dramatic.
36    Next question: Why sword fights? That is obsolete even here, and
37 we are very primative.
38 Maybe we should just accept it as a movie, and not think too hard.
39 ..................................
40 While I do agree with you basicly, the main reason that I brought it
41 up was in response to the knee jerk reaction of the previous
42 message that stated that any noise heard in a space battle was
43 impossible as sound could not travel through space. After hearing
44 that same nonthinking statement for the umteenth time I get a 
45 bit irate. Yes there will be noise, it may not be exactly the
46 way it is presented at the movies now, but it will be there.
47 Also there will definatly be a large electromagnetic shock wave
48 generated. This is not only known, it is a problem today. The 
49 shock wave is so strong from an atomic bomb blast (when placed
50 at the optimal point) it can destroy electricall equipment for
51 hundreds of miles in all directions. This is not theory, it is
52 a proven fact.) Of course we would hope that by the time the 
53 weponry generally shown is developed that some means of sheilding
54 ourselves from the shock wave will be developed. But keep in mind
55 the larger the destructive forces involved the greater the shock
56 wave will be. While the idea of debree generated sound is a nice
57 thing to throw in it is really not much to consider. the normal 
58 distances encountered in the types of battles depicted preclude
59 debrees as being a source of the sound as often it would require
60 minutes to get back to the observer and in many cases hours or more.
61 since the sound indicated is of a more imediated type I.E. it
62 occurs along with the visual blast. This preforce indicates that
63 it must be electromagnetic in nature that they are using to repesent
64 the sound. A consideration here is that they may very well allow 
65 the sound to be feed to the observer in order to get a desired 
66 audible feedback. In a dogfight situation you need every possible
67 piece of feedback info you can get. In that type of situation you
68 fire your guns and or missles and get out fast not even worrying
69 to see if you hit the target, because the target is busy trying to
70 get you and you want to avoid that if you can. As such an audible
71 feedback of a hit would be very usefull to know. In laser weponry
72 they take it one step futher, since the laser has a very narrow
73 beem the destruction it performs is minimal. As such the desired
74 end is to destroy something vital (the heart of the opposing craft)
75 this turned out to be rather easy to do (although admittedly grusome)
76 you simplly look for large amounts of carbon spectra at the blast point
77 and if get it you've hit the pilot of the craft which is the idea
78 behind it. (I told you it was grusome!) 
79 As for swords, I would tend to agree with you that they are a bit 
80 outdated. A pistol would serve far better today. An M16 however 
81 would not. It is to cumbersome to really do anything in close quarters
82 with about all you can do is use it for a very ineffective club.
83 A knife is a far better weapon ofr this type of thing as it is the
84 most manuverable of all weapons and the easiest to control while
85 retaining the kill capability of the others. And it has the advantage
86 of total silence in the kill which the others do not (even silencers
87 generate some noise).
88 As far as the speed of the explosion, I would actualy expect it to 
89 be over quicker then shown on the screen. The explosions that are
90 shown are real explosions that are filmed and inserted in the frame.
91 the problem here is that there is lots of air to allow the burn to 
92 continue and add to the explosion. I think you would find that in 
93 space where there is no air to burn that the explosion would take
94 place faster and be far less spectacular. Also the debrees would 
95 fly farther because of the lack of resisting air and no curving
96 trajectories because of the minimal gravity forces. This also
97 means that the debrees will be hanging around causing all kinds 
98 of havoc which is seldom delt with in the depicted battles.
99 In air battles it is less of a concern since it falls to the ground
100 out of the way. 
101 Well I guess I better shut up befor I catch too much flack for
102 shooting my mouth off on this system....... (boo......)
103 ** CISTOP MIKEY DUCKING THE RETURNING FLACK ** 30 MAY 83 ** 6:30PM **
104 
105 *=*=*=*=*=*=*=
106 
107 )))))
108 WELL, WELL, I BELIEVE NOONE REALLY CARES...
109 CISTOP MIKEY SHOULD(!) DUCK...CAUSE HE DESERVES
110 LOTS OF RETURN FLACK...  HE SHOULD WORK ON HIS
111 SPELLING TOO.  SIMPLLY TERABLE.!.!.!
112 HOWEVER, LEAVING AT^@ THIS..>
113 THERE IS NO SOUND IN SPACE...JUST WAVES.
114 STAR WARS CANNOT USE GUNS OR M16'S IN CERTAIN
115 PLACES BECAUSE GUNPOWDER CANNOT AND WILL
116 NOT EXPLODE THEIR.  MY SOURCE IS A STAR WARS^I
117 EXPERT WHO IS UP ON THOSE STUPID FACTS.
118 THUS, THEY USE SWORDS.  ANYHOW,^@ NONE CARES!^=^=
119 WITH THAT, I/M GONE.  BYE-BYE^=
120      ''''  ZEUS - WATCHING THE HEAVENS FOR ALIENS.. '''''
121 TIME=^W?:58, WHERE ?=7, AND DATE=30-MAY-83...A 
122 MONDAY FOR ALL THOSE IN^TETERESTED...
123 MEMORIAL DAY EVEN!^=
124 **==**==**==*
125 
126 I AM INTERESTED THAT THE CONCEPT THAT GUNS COULD NOT GO OFF
127 IN STAR WARS. THIS IS VERY INTERESTING SINCE GUNPOWDER IS A
128 LOCALIZED CHEMICAL REACTION NOT RELYING ON OUTSIDE INTERFERENCE
129 FOR ITS OPERATION. NOW A BLASTER IS ANOTHER THING ALTOGETHER
130 CONCEVABLY SOME FORCE FIELD COULD BE GENERATED WHICH WOULD
131 INHIBIT THE BLASTER FROM WORKING, BUT THIS SEEMS A BIT ON
132 THE FAR FETCHED SIDE SINCE THE LIGHT SABER WORKS ON A SIMULAR
133 PRINCIPLE AS THE BLASTER, JUST MORE LOCALIZED, AND AS SUCH
134 WOULD BE AFFECTED BY THE SAME FORCE FIELD. ALSO IT DOESN'T
135 EXPLAIN ALL THE OTHER BASTERS SHOOTING ALL AROUND THE 
136 SWORDSMEN. YA GOTA BE CONSISTENT GUY...
137 ***** CISTOP MIKEY YET AGAIN **** 30 MAY 83 **** 9:37PM *******
138 
139 
140 I'M BACK!!! IT IS AMAZING WHAT ONE MISSES WHEN HE HAS NOT LOGGED ON FOR
141 A LONG TIME! ...
142 
143 TRON, DID YOU GET YOUR 1541 WORKING???
144 
145 THE SYSM...DAVID GREENMAN (PRESIDENT, PROTRON DATA SYSTEMS AND A STUDENT AT
146 REYNOLDS HIGH SCHOOL.)
147 
148 ========================================
149 Tron, in response to you question on the Disk b, you must know that 
150 most of the knowledge on black holes is theoretical. Eienstien's relativity ALLOWS, but does not REQUIRE the existance of
151 black holes. The same with white holes. We have yet to actually find one. (We think there is one, because of the warp in
152 a stars path that could only be cauwed by a strong gravity field, but we can't prove it's a black hole). Therefore, 
153 NOTHING we "know" about black holes is proven to any extent. It's ALL theory. We also assume such a thing may exist. It 
154 may not do that. After all, Einstien has been proven wrong on much of his work, so he cannot be taken on authority without
155 question. A shame. He was a great man.
156          Akonis
157 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
158 I disagree with the previous assertion that we can't prove that black
159 holes exist.  First, we can demonstrate merely using mathematics that
160 an object of a given mass will have a calculated escape velocity greater
161 than c (speed of light) if this mass is concentrated into a sufficiently
162 small volume.  So we must know the mass.  This is calculable in the case
163 of a double-star system if you know the mass of the visible star (which
164 can be determined by luminosity and spectrum) and can detect the orbital
165 velocity of both stars (rotational period).  This is easy, since dense
166 objects like black holes often give off bursts of energy (pulsars) and
167 the doppler effect is detectable.  Second, we know that if a sufficiently
168 dense mass exists, it will radiate like a star or will be a black hole
169 and thus not radiate.  However, the accretion disk itself can radiate,
170 so a black hole isn't perfectly black in practice (well, it is, but 'the
171 cat has been belled').
172 ^IOf course, some people won't accept any forms of proof that they
173 can't actually see.  In the case of black holes, that's practically a 
174 contraction in terms.  But remember that much of science was (or is still)
175 based on theories that could not be immediately 'proven' to everyone's
176 satisfaction.
177 ^II see no reason why a black hole should NOT exist.  Put enough
178 mass into a small enough volume, and nature has no choice in the matter.
179 ########################
180 To: David Greenman  From: Tron  Re: YES!!!
181 I got the disk working. Not only that, I got a new manual for
182 it! Did you say that you go to Renoylds High School? I go to
183 Corbett and pass right by there all the time. What a 
184 coincidence!
185 
186             Tron
187 ------------
188 
189 
190 
191 L;KL;K
192 
193 ||||||||
194 
195      Sound in space is nonexistent.
196     The fact is that since sound does not travel through space
197     then it cannot be detected by any sort of device that would
198     or could pick it up. 
199 
200      The creators of SCI-FI movies create sound in space to
201     give the audience a energetic feeling. For it is a fact
202     that 98% of a horror movies scariness comes from the sound
203     or music that is being played during that movie. Imagine
204     what people who can't hear think about movies. for them
205     98% of the movie is missing. 
206 
207 
208 
209                                     Syrinx ........
210 
211 
212 ||||||||
213 TRON:
214 ^=
215 YOU SAID THAT YOU ARE 14, HOw LONG HAVE YOU BEEN PROGRAMMING/INVOLVED WITH
216 COMPUTERS? WHAT EQUIPMENT DO YOU OWN? HOW DID YOU LEARN IN THE FIRST PLACE?
217 WHAT HIGH SCHOOL WILL YOU BE GOING NEXT YEAR?
218 
219 THE SYSM. (CLASS OF '86)
220 ^=
221 
222 ----------
223 To: 
224 Someone above  From: Tron  Re: things
225 I have been programming for almost 5 years. I own a TRS-80 Model
226 I with 48k and 3 cassette decks, a modem and an Alpha Joystick.
227 I got my computer 4 years ago. I was dinking around with electronics
228 and stumbled onto computer programming. Now I know little about
229 electronics and a lot about computers. I learned computer programming
230 basically on my own. I went to 2 classes offered by Radio Shack
231 but didn't learn hardly anything. I just bought book after book
232 until now. I think that a person should find something out for
233 themselves instead of learning from a teacher. The most rewarding
234 thing about learning is discovering it yourself. It really puts
235 the mind to work. Anyway, I hope I don't go to Corbett High School.
236 That place has been arsonized and burned to a crisp. It stinks
237 very bad. I've smelled boys bathrooms that are better than this.
238 I would like very much to go back to Parkrose and continue
239 my education there. I don't like Corbett High at all.
240 
241 
242                  Tron
243 ----------
244 P.S. As of class of '86, I am class of '87.
245 ----------
246 To: Black hole enthusiasts  From: Tron  Re: Black holes (duh!)
247    I do agree that black holes exist. But, how does it generate
248 a gravity field that strong? My teacher tells me that is spins
249 two ways at once and spins very very fast. But, take that same
250 theory and put it on earth. If we could make a ball spin at
251 about 500,000,000,000 rpms it should generate a gravity field.
252 No? I am just wondering. If the above isn't true, then what causes
253 such a strong gravity field?
254 
255 
256               Tron
257 ----------
258 ***************************************************************
259 1) there is no "sound" in space because there is no air
260  to carry the vibrations - try it, put a buzzer in a jar and
261 then pump a vacuum, just see if there are any vibrations transmitted!
262 2) swords in space: try shooting a gun (any gun) and then see
263 if you have any air to breathe when the bullet pierces the hull!
264 ***********Grey Ghost******************************************
265 TRON:^=
266 
267   THE SYSM IS MY CALL LETTERS... IT STANDS FOR "SYSTEM MANAGER". IT WAS THE 
268 PASSWORD TO THE MAIN USER I.D. FOR
269 THE COMPUTER SYSTEM AT REYNOLDS H.S.
270 
271 AFTER TWO WEEKS IN THE CLASS (COMPUTER MATH I), THE TEACHER BECAME THE STUDENT
272 AND I BECAME THE TEACHER. I KNEW SO MUCH ABOUT COMPUTER HARDWARE (DIGITAL ELECT
273 RONICS) AND PROGRAMM^@ING, THAT I WAS
274 PUT IN CHARGE OF THE SYSTEM-FIXING ANY PROBLEMS THAT MAY COME UP.
275 I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH COMPUTERS DIRECTLY FOR FIVE YEARS, THE LAST OF wHICH
276 I LEARNED DIGITAL ELECTRONICS. IT WAS EASY BECAUSE I HAVE A GOOD BACKGROUND
277 IN ANALOG ELECTRONICS.
278 JUST RECENTLY I FORMED MY OwN COMPANY (YES, AT THE AGE OF 15). IT IS CALLED 
279 'PROTRON DATA SYSTEMS'. I SELL SOFTWARE AND HARDWARE THAT I OR MY FRIENDS DESIGN.
280 SOON I PLAN TO START MARKETING COMPUTERS AND VIDEO GAME MACHINES BY MAIL-ORDER.
281 
282 
283 THE SYSM...DAVID GREENMAN.
284 
285 
286 ========================================
287 From: Tron  To: David Greenman  Re: things
288 
289    I would be interested in trying out that thing at Renoylds
290 High. But, don't leave the number and I.D. number on here for
291 prying eyes to see. Leave it for me on the PMS at 245-2536.
292 If you don't want to, thats okay. Also, I am one to design
293 my own computer time-sharing system. I want to build one but
294 I don't know much about electronics. Could you help me? I have
295 another freind who might. Thanks......
296 
297 
298 ^I              Tron
299 ----------
300 Also, I am also forming my own software company. I call it
301 "SOFTSTUFF". It supports the following machines
302 TRS-80 Model I and III
303 TRS-80 Color Computer
304 Heathkit H-89
305 Vic 64 and Vic 20
306 Apple II and Apple IIe
307 That is all. That isn't many. Maybe we can merge together to
308 form a stronger one. I am VERY VERY good at bookkeeping and
309 control organization. I am going to take a 2 year algebra course
310 in my freshman year. By the way, I am going to get myself a
311 TRS-80 Model 16 with a hard disk (as soon as I get enough money.
312 I currently have $18 and am working on $10,000.). I plan to
313 pick berries this summer. Well, why don't you think about it
314 and we will discuss it around. See ya!
315 
316             Tron
317 ----------
318 To: All concerned  From: Tron  Re: e=mc2
319 
320      I am one to challenge Einsteins theory because I just don't
321 see any evidence that supporst his famous formula. Well, I may
322 be making a complete fool of myself, but I just thought I'd
323 express my opinion.
324      Take a spaceship and put it into space. Thrust it out
325 in one direction. Continue to do so. There is NO objects or
326 friction to stop it. So, if so, you should be able to thrust
327 faster and faster (assuming that you have enough fuel) until
328 you eventually hit the speed of light or even exceed it. According
329 to the formula "E=MC2", he states that Energy = Mass times the
330 speed of light. If this is true, then he means to tell us that
331 light is mass. But, mass is always solid. Not necessarialy to
332 the naked eye but is still solid. ^[That means that I am being shot with
333 tons of mass every second. So, the spaceship should become light.
334 Anyone have their say? I just thought I'd enlighten this system
335 up with a very interesting subject. But, I still think Einstein
336 was a complete genius.
337 
338                Tron
339 ----------
340 -----
346 Probable-Possible, my black hen,
347 She lays eggs in the Relative When.
348 She doesn't lay eggs in the Positive Now
349 Because she's unable to postulate how.
350        -- Frederick Winsor
351 -----
352 HUH?
353 -----
354 I got a question. Why do scientists use "c" to represent the
355 speed of light?
356 
357          Tron
358 -----
359 IS THAT ANOTHER CHICKEN JOKE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
360 yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke
361 >>>>>>>  Sir Innkeeper, gaze back into the past:  scroll 605  <<<<<<<
362 
363 TRON:
364   YOU ARE CLOSE, CONSIDER THAT THE MAXIMUM SPEED THAT A REACTION
365 CAN HAVE IS THE SPEED OF LIGHT (NOTE THAT THIS IS A CONSTANT AND
366 FIXED AS THE MAXIMUM SPEED WITHIN THE UNIVERSAL REFFERANCE.) THEN 
367 CONSIDER WHAT YOU WOULD USE FOR PROPULSION TO GO FASTER. THIS IS
368 THE REAL PROBLEM. THE OTHER ASPECT IS THE INCREASING APPARENT MASS,
369 THAT BEING THE FASTER YOU GO THE MORE ENERGY THAT IS REQUIRED TO
370 MAKE YOU GO EVEN FASTER DUE TO YOUR APPARENT MASS INCREASING WITH 
371 SPEED. ALL THIS COMES TOGETHER AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT WHERE YOUR
372 APPARENT MASS BECOMES INFINITE AND YOU REACTION CAN PUSH YOU NO
373 FASTER. NOW IF YOU COULD FIGURE OUT A WAY TOCONTERACT THE INCREASING
374 MASS AND FIND A PROPULSION SYSTEM THAT CAN REACT FASTER THEN LIGHT.
375 THERE IS NOTHING PREVENTING YOU FROM EXCEDING THAT BARRIER.
376 ***** CISTOP MIKEY ****** 1 JUN 83 ********************************
377 THEY HAVE EARS BUT THEY DO NOT HEAR THEY HAVE EYES BUT THEY DO NOT SEE.
378 THE SOUND IN THE MOVIES IS NOT GENERATED VIA SOUND WAVES TRAVELING
379 THRU SPACE THIS IS OBVIOUS POPYCOCK. IT IS THE RESULT OF REGENERATED
380 SOUND VIA ELECTROMAGNETIC OR VISUAL TRANSLATION. I FAIL TO SEE YOUR
381 PROBLEM YOU ARE SAYING SOMETHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT SEEING THE
382 MULTITUDE OF POSSIBLE ANSWERS. THINK! HAVE SOME DEGREE OF IMAGINATION!
383 ****** CISTOP MIKEY AGAIN ***************************************
385 **==**==**==
386 
387 A few notes to ponder.  First, why not use 'C' for the speed of light.  It
388 is sure shorter then saying 'Speed of Light.'  It is just consistent with
389 one of the first scientist, and it has been carried on ever since.  Right
390 Mikey?  Right.  Good luck in challenging Einsteins theory.  I have spent
391 a few hours studying the concepts of it, and I can see that you haven't 
392 spent even a few minutes.  Not knocking you, but how do you expect your
393 spaceship to get moving the speed of light?  Gravity?  (If you think
394 that that is a good answer, your right, but wrong.)  Einstein at no time
395 says that light=mass.  I'm not sure where you picked that one out of.
396 It is like a Centriod, massless, density=0.  I suggest you look into a 
397 couple books written on the subject, and you will see what I mean.
398 You will see the light, so to speak.  Anyhow, I am not knocking
399 anyone, just trying to prove some points.  Frederick Winsor was a
400 wise man^[Q!  Also, scientist might use 'C'(though, not necessarily)
401 to represent it as a constant.  Ya know, if everyone uses their
402 imaginations, we are going to get into a lot of B.S.  I think
403 some facts(not rock hard ones) should be shown.  Oh, and Mikey,
404 I still find it hard to agree with your concepts on gunpowder.
405 Let's leave it at this:  Star Wars used swords to put both men
406 on the screen at the same time, and to show more action...the
407 heat of battle^[Q!  Okay?  Fine.  Grey Ghost, your right.  Try that
408 experiment, and you will see.  Anyway, we gone, bye-bye.
409 
410            Zeus, watching the heavens for aliens...
411 
412 9:00 am, on this first day in June, 1983.     Bingo.
413 
414 **==**==**==**==
415 
416 Tron: "c" as the speed of light derives from the Latin word 
417 "celeritas" (speed). E=m*c^2 is part of the theory of relativity
418 but not the part that says you can't exceed lightspeed. Even if
419 I grant that you can accelerate past the speed of light, it will
420 take you about 1 year at 1 g acceleration (that's gonna take 
421 LOTS of fuel!!) as measured aboard ship (I'm using special
422 relativity, not general so this isn't accurate), but to me
423 sitting back at home it would take an INFINITE amount of time!
424 Also by my measurements your ship would have a length (in the
425 direction of travel) of 0 and an INFINITE mass! The formula is
426 quite simple: (time on earth)/(time on ship) = 1/tau
427 mass of ship as measured on earth = (mass of ship)/tau
428 length of ship as measured on earth = (length of ship) * tau
429 tau = SQR( 1 - (velocity of ship)^2/c^2)
430 Oh, by the way if you are going away from earth at .9c and I'm
431 traveling toward earth (along the same course line) at .9c we
432 AREN'T approaching each other at 1.8c! At "high" speeds you 
433 don't add speeds that way instead:
434 Relative velocity = (v1+v2)/(1-(v1+v2)/c)
435 If you think the results of these formulas are weird, you should
436 see what happens if you try figuring things out without them!
437 (you see the bit about the speed of light being the same- no
438 matter what speed you are travelling was an EXPERIMENTAL result
439 & these formulas turn out to be the ONLY way to have that result
440 without things getting TOTALLY fouled up. Things get strange
441 but there aren't any outright contradictions)
442 ___________________________Leonard__________________________
443 As to sound in space, true a vacuum won't transmit sound waves.
444 BUT, I suggest that instead of a bell in that vacuum jar, you
445 try a firecracker (or if it is a BIG vacuum chamber - a stick
446 of dynamite!) you WILL get sound waves. BECAUSE THE EXPLOSION
447 SUPPLIES AN EXPANDING WAVEFRONT OF GASES!! Also, due to the
448 lack of resistance the fireball will expand faster & any lack
449 of symmetry will be due to irregularities in the explosion. 
450 Most explosions will be roughly spherical. Oh, don't get me
451 wrong, I doubt that you could hear an explosion at any great
452 distance in space, but it IS possible. 
453 As to gunpowder, would you believe that you can fire a gun in
454 a vacuum? You can, but in free-fall it could be more dangerous
455 to you than your target (recoil, y' know). The sword is a far
456 more practical close combat weapon than most people realize.
457 As Heinlein once said, "close fast on a man with a rifle and
458 he's in trouble, close fast on a man with a sword and you'll
459 get spitted like a roast goose". Swords went out for close
460 combat ONLY because they take too much skill & training for a
461 modern military force. (I know, I've been practicing on and off
462 for several years & I'm still an utter novice). It takes YEARS
463 of training to turn out a decent swordsman. (the FORCE must of
464 helped Luke!) I suspect that part of the reason for the swords
465 is the same reason the the US military still has swords (as
466 part of some dress uniforms) -- TRADITION!
467 ____________________________________________________________
468 To: All   From: Tron   Re: e=mc2
469 
470     As I stated before, I think that if you had the right
471 equipment and fuel, you could eventually exceed the speed of
472 light. But, take sound into account. There is no actual speed
473 of the waves that are sent out. If so, what are they? Light speed
474 is supposedly only attained by light istelf. I just don't see
475 how speded or sound could be limited if there is no friction or
476 blockades. Just like numbers; they go on and on and don't have
477 a specific ending. Really, nothing has an end if you think about
478 it. Also, does anyone have a good explanation of time and mass?
479 I been thinking real hard (it hurts too!) and couldn't come up
480 with any good ones.
481 
482                 Tron
483 ----------
484 HUH? What do you mean "no actual speed of the waves sent out"?
485 Also ANY particle with zero "rest mass" travels at the speed of
486 light and CAN'T TRAVEL ANY SLOWER! Re-read what I said about
487 time-rates YOU might make it to light speed, but the rest of the
488 universe would have died during the last millisecond before you
489 reached it! I'm afraid that the slowing down of time at high
490 speeds has been measured, so it isn't just theory. However theory
491 DOES allow for things travelling faster than light! The catch
492 is that anything travelling faster than light can't slow down
493 to light-speed! Some people have suggested that it might be
494 possible to "go around" the "light barrier" instead of thru it.
495 A good analogy is the function: y = 1/x
496 If you graph it you will see that it approaches the Y-axis from
497 both sides BUT NEVER GETS THERE!
498 If you want I'll make a list of books, articles & formulas and
499 post it here. But I suggest that you find out what formulas
500 (such as E = Mc2) mean before you discuss them. Just knowing
501 what E, m & c mean doesn't mean you know what the FORMULA means!
502 _________________________________Leonard_______________________
503 Yes I know. I had a science teacher that told me that when light
504 passes through glass, it slows it down some. I have read two
505 books about the theory of relativity and also did a research
506 paper on it. Is the above true about light?
507  
508  
509  ^I^I^I             Tron
510 ----------
511 
512 Milady of dragons,
513     Ahhh you honor me with your music of words and color. A marvelous
514 and joyfully resplendent land do you depict outside of this Inn.
515 The land not as barren as once it was with the ravages of warfare 
516 overflowing from  the desputes in this Inn. Your touch has brought 
517 beauty and light where befor there was nought. Though often it seems
518 futile in the attempt to maintain a lighter mood in the tavern. 
519 Maybe an improvement can at least be made. A tavern should be for
520 joy and relaxation and not for war. Without this release there
521 is no escape from the presures of life without. 
522 ** CISTOP MIKEY Innkeeper of the Backwater Inn ** 2 JUN 83 ** 3:30PM **
530 
532 
533 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
534 Tron,
535   Your confusion about gravity can be relieved by understanding that
536 the gravitational force is only a function of the mass of an object.
537 It might be possible that an object spinning at a rate such that the
538 outer surface approached the speed of light.  Since the mass increases
539 dramatically as the velocity nears 'c', this could increase the
540 gravitational field.
541   The most obvious proof of the e=mc^2 formula is in the development
542 of nuclear energy and weapons.  The conversions of nuclear particles
543 to energy helps keep your lights (and your computer) on in Corbett.
544 ^I^I^I^IAnalog Alan
545 {}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}
546 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
547 
548 I agree that sound would be a great way to supply a space fighter pilot some
549 feedback on what is going on around him.  And also makes for better theatre.
550 STAR WARS is space opera, not science fiction.  Blade Runner was science fic-
551 tion.  (GHOD, do I love STAR WARS!!! I, II, and III!!!)  It was said repeat-
552 edly that the light sabre was the TRADITIONAL weapon of a Jedi Knight.  So
553 what if it's out of date?  (a crossbow is out of date and will kill you
554 deader than dead, at long range, silently...)  In close action, a sword is 
555 a very effective weapon, at medium and long range, forget it.  Remember
556 Indiana Jones versus the Swordmaster in Red???  (think of the poor guy, a 
557 lifetime of practice, constant training, careful attention to detail, good
558 agent, slowly building up a professional practice, and just at the peak of
559 his earning years, BAM! future shock! there ain't no justice...)
560      I agree about space explosions, they won't look like what we see in 
561 the movies.  Blowing up a very large object like a death star or a planet
562 is going to be a very slow process.  But who cares!  ONE MORE TIME!!!
563 
564                                     the Phantom Glitch
565                                         just high on RETURN!!!
566 
567 HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
568 -----
569 Hey, without sound, dogfights in space would be any fun!
570 -----
571 ============================================
572 Yes, Tron, you merely display your lack of knowledge when you discuss
573 relativity.  Though I didn't major in physics in college, 1.5 years of
574 it helped.  I don't claim to understand any of the finer points, but
575 I do know one thing:  Relativity is consistent and is capable of
576 accurately predicting behavior in the real world.  Those people who
577 claim to see 'contradictions' are usually just comparing a prediction
578 of relativity with 'good old common sense,' which usually turns out to
579 be Newtonian physics.  Newton's physics is still taught in school 
580 because it is still an excellent description of the world at low speeds.
581 Try to compare the two near c, and 'contradictions' occur.  And if you
582 trust your intuition too much, you conclude that relativity is wrong.
583 ^IOne of the earliest examples of an observation explained with
584 relativity is the precession of the orbit of Mercury.  This orbit isn't
585 exactly circular, and the point at which it is nearest the Sun moves 
586 a tiny amount every year.  By Newtonian physics this can't happen:  All
587 forces are central.  But it does happen.  Originally this was 'explained'
588 by postulating the existance of a planet inside the orbit of Mercury,
589 but when relativity was discovered the cause was obvious.  
590 ^IThe predictive value of a theory is a good test of its correctness.
591 Other predictions, such as light bending in response to a nearby mass,
592 clocks speeding up or slowing down while in motion, particle trajectories
593 in accelerators, and others have proven relativity to be nearly perfect.
594 Of course, some corrections may need to be made, but you'll need at
595 least 15 years more of school before you can even appreciate the
596 inaccuracies, let alone determine the solutions.
597 .................................................
598 TRON,
599 While all that is said about relativity is relatively correct (sorry), do
600 keep in mind that it is all based on current beliefs by the people saying
601 it is so. There once was a time when it was impossible for a train (or
602 other vehical) to travel faster then 25 MPH because it would kill the 
603 passengers. They were good mathmatics behind it too. Of course this turned
604 out to be not so. How about the ideas of the Earth being flat? Or that 
605 it is the center of the universe? All of these ideas were accepted by
606 the people when the notion was popular, and in all cases there was the
607 proper proof that the concepts were correct. What about the 'law of gravity'
608 what goes up must come down, well.... except when you reach escape velocity.
609 opps... I might also point out that the orbit of Mercury is not fully 
610 explained by relativity. There are still some minor aspects about it that
611 they have yet to explain. They are working on some gravity theories to
612 try to explain them (among other things). The other thing to keep it
613 mind is that the things themselves don't change, only the forces involved.
614 That is as you aproach the speed of light and your mass approaches 
615 infinity, this doesn't mean you become physically infinate in size,
616 only the forces involved are reaching infinity. There is a big difference
617 here, although not to the scientists who only care about the forces.
618 What I am saying is don't give up hope because someone has painted
619 a door on a brick wall and said that you can't open it because it is locked.
620 Instead explore the possibilities to get past the brick wall some other
621 way. This is how each new concept we know is found, INCLUDING RELATIVITY!
622 By the way, the speed of sound is simply based on the medium through which 
623 it is traveling. Since of couse it can't travel through a vacuum (oh god
624 here we go again..) since by that structure there is nothing for it to
625 travel through. If you were to send a blast wave at say 1/2 the speed of
626 light, and there was a sound wave with in it traveling at 400 MPH, how
627 fast is the sound traveling? A. 1/2 the speed of light? B. 400 MPH?
628 C. 1/2 the speed of light +400 MPH? D. 1/2 the speed of light -400 MPH?
629 ** CISTOP MIKEY RUNNING FOR COVER ** 2 JUN 83 ** 10:39PM ******************