582 lines
36 KiB
Plaintext
582 lines
36 KiB
Plaintext
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NUMBER OF LINES: 629
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1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
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2 ************************* REMOVED: 25 MAR 83 ***********************
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3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator
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4 ************************************************************
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5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
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6 THIS SYSTEM.
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7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
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8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
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9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
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10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
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11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
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13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
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14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
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15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
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16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
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17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
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18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
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19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
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20 use the replace command to replace the line.
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21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
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22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
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23 ========================================
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24
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25 This disk is empty, to see the old disk type "Control-C" followed by
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26 "db" and you get the 'B' drive. Or fill this poor empty space up!
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27 the Phantom Glitch.
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28 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%3%17%83%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
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29 TO: the Phantom Glitch
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30 FROM: DEAD DRIVE
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31 Thanks for the info: What do you know about Percom? I haven't heard anything
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32 good. I think I might spring for double density Rana's.
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33 ...............................................3/17/83........17:29:00........
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34 TO P.G. SUBJ: DISK ERRORS
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35 WELL, THIS IS THE DISK THAT WAS GIVING ME THOSE ERRORS. LETS HOPE IT WAS
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36 JUST A BAD FORMAT AND NOT THE DISK.
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37 ******* CISTOP MIKEY **** 17 MAR 83 ******************************
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71 Hello-----------Open response ` March 18,1983
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73 I'm glad people are not alseep out there. A small comment of ideas got
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74 a response from many.That's what the boards are all about and itw's
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75 great that someone can share. ...>....n.................................
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76 THANK YOU mmMIKEY.
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77
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78
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79 I had a vision when I was in the 4th.grade that computers(Main frame&
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80 vacumm tubes)where going somewhere but had no interest til I "GREW-UP"
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81 Will time went by and as the system changed,I grew and learned the it
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82 was not perfect as none of US are or the soft/hardware we might be run-
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83 ning at any given time.If it doesn't perform the functions you need-you
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84 replace it or repair it. I haven't lost faith in the system-just the way
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85 it's being run and I'm not willing to take a back seat,I'm getting invol
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86 ved on a personal basis to help correct the problems so it works. The
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87 original comment was not to indorse/condemn any union,government,company
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88 or military structure. It was to state my feelings and seek response
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89 from any one out there who was concerned in any way. The guy in Detroit
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90 who makes $10.00 or more a hour screwing on rear-view mirrors was used
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91 as a example-Is he worth $10.00 a hour???? ??????????What does it cost
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92 him and/or his family to live-at what level of comfort should he/ live
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93 at-what amount of medical or dental care should his family recieve com-
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94 pared to their president that makes in excess of 200.000 a year with the
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95 best benifits a human being can find on this planet. What is good for
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96 one is good for all.Should there be a equitable life for one or all???
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97 -CShall we have a system that gives to one group and takes from another
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98 or should we all share in the benifits with equal responsibility??????
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99 unions where created to deal with a problem that still exsists today-
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100 Workers having a say as to what the working conditions that they will be
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101 working under,their health relationship,hours and pay.None of these thing
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102 will effect any company or there profits in they are concerned about the
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104 workers`and welfare. Unde 104
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105 welfare of their workers. The unions need change just as any system but
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106 they sure arn't the sorce of the problems we see.They need tha participa-
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107 of members to vwork. That is basic statement of the comment-People need
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108 to get involved now>Stamping out apathy will make everyones voice
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109 louder and the actions and results for firm.Living in Siberia would be
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110 like living anywhere else but under another system,as anyone can see-that
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111 system is not exceptable to the people living under it and many are
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112 speaking out in words and actions as the rest of the world is.It is
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113 obvious that something global is not working,it's time for change.We
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114 should not let language,culture or political systems divide the human
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115 factor
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116 ONE OF TWO......THE OJ KID.....
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117 ****************************************************************
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118 AMIGO-MONDAY is changing its name and moving:
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119
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120 AMIGO-SUNDAY will be Online
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121 SUNDAY Mar.20 for 24hrs
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122 652-xxxx
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123 *****************************************************************
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124 TO LEONARD ERICKSON:
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125
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126 THE FIRST PATCH WORKED JUST FINE (THE ONE THAT PRINTS FULL ERROR CODES)
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127 BUT THE ONE THAT DISABLES PASSWORDS DIDN'T WORK.
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128 FIRST OF ALL, THERE ISN'T A 'EDB0' IN LOCATION '4FB7', THERE IS A '2A4C' THERE.
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129 I TRIED PATCHING THIS AREA WITH 0000, BUT THIS DIDN'T DISABLE THE pASSwORDS
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130 I ALSO TRIED OTHER LOCATIONS THAT CONTAINED AN 'EDB0', BUT AGAIN HAD NO SUCCESS.
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131
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132
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133 WHAT NEXT?
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134
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135 THE SYSM...
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136 ********************************************************************************
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137
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138 What do you think you are accomplishing by starting conversation
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139 with such political colorings....... Do you like competition ?
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140 Is it good for the people ?
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141 SHOULD YOUR CHILD THINK HE IS BETTER BECAUSE HE CAN DO SOMETHING BETTER
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142 THAT ANOTHER ?
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143 ^CAPTAIN BOB^
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144
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145
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146 THE PIONT OF WHAT HAS BEEN SAID AND WHAT I WANT TO SAY HAS NOTHING TO DO
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147 WITH COMPETITION-IT'S AWARENESS-WE AS A GLOBAL FAMILY ARE IN A WORLD OF
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148 SHIT AND THE REASON FOR MY COMMENTS WHERE TO SEE WHO IS AWAKE OUT THEIR
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149 AND POSSIBLY SHARE SOME IDEAS ABOUT THE PROBLEM.YOU WOULD BE SURPRIZED AT
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150 WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE START TALKING AND INTERACTING WITH EACH OTHER,
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151 LET ALONE COUNTRIES.
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152
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153 SWATERGATE WAS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF CLOSED POLICY AND ATTITUDE AND RELATESVES
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154 VERY WELL TO MANIFEST DESTINY-SOMEONE TOLD THE PEOPLE WHO SETTLED THIS
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155 COUNTRY THAT IS WAS A GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO SLAUGHTER THE PEOPLE ALREADY
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156 LIVING HERE.THE US GOVERNMENT CAN 99(US)CAN TAKE NO BLAME BUT THE ATTITUDE
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157 AND BELIEFS BEHIND THE ACTIONS.THE FRENCH AND AMERICANS DIDN'T GET
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158 BOOTED OUT OF VIETNOM BECAUSE THE PEOPLE THERE DIDN'T LIKE THE TASTE
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159 OF COORS BEER-THEY DIDN'T NEED THE HELP. CONCERNING TAXES AND DILUTED
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160 SLAVERY, RING TRUE BUT WE END UP AT HOME BASE AGAIN.WE THE PEOPLE
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161 NEED TO PARTICIPATE AND DECIDE/DICTATE HOW THE RESOURCES(TAXES ETC)
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162 SHALL BE USED.. THE STATEMENT ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENTS IS A GOOD
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163 EXAMPLE OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE(THE HUMAM FACTOR) COME TOGETHER
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164 WITH A GOAL AND COMMON NEED.WHO ARE THE LEECHES IN OUR SOCIETY??????????
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165 HOW DOES A WELL-OFF MINORITY COME ABOUT?????????WHEN YOU DEAL WITH THE
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166 NEED OF ANY SYSTEM AND IT'S COMPONENTS I.E.,FOOD,SHELTER,POLICE,FIRE
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167 PROTECTION,HEALTH ECT...YOU COME TO THE PARTICIPATION OF PEOPLE ON
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168 A EQUAL BASIS.THE IDEA IF YOU HAVE A LARGE LABOR POOL-YOUV'E GOT CHEAP
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169 (SLAVE)LABOR BUT WHAT IF THEY DON'T PUT THOSE PEOPLE TO WORK IN A
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170 SYSTEM THAT REQUIRES RESOURES??????PROVERTY BREEDS QUOTE"CRIME".I SEE
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171 VERY FEW PEOPLE OUT THERE IN THE WORLD THAT WANT TO SIT ON THEIR ASS
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172 GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE AND BENIFIT FROM THE SYSTEM ON A
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173 EQUAL BASIS. YOU CAN TROW YOUR SOCIAL PROGRAMS OUT THE WINDOW.GO TO THE
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174 SORCE OF THE PROBLEM AND YOU WILL SEE THE ANSWER.THOSE WHO HAVE NOT LIVED
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175 LONG ENOUGH TO HAVE EXPERIENCED BEING WITHOUT DON'T KNOW-THIS WAS A STATE-
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176 MENT THAT WAS PICKED OFF THE BOARD.YES ' I MAY BE YOUNG BUT ISURE DO
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177 REMMEBER AND KNOW WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO GO WITHOUT. I'M STILL HERE BUT I
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178 LEARNED A LOT WITHOUT EXCEPTING THE STATEMENTS THAT"THIS IS THE WAY IT IS
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179 SO EXCEPT IT" I REFUSE BECAUSE I KNOW THINGS CAN AND WILL BE DIFFERENT.
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180
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181 I WANT TO SAY THANK YOU FOR GIVING ME THE SPACE TO EXPRESS MYSELF-THE
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182 WHOLE POINT WAS TO GET A RESPONSE AND SOME IDEAS.IT'S BETTER THAN LETTING
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183 THE NEXT GUY DO IT FOR YOU. THE O.J. KID
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184
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185
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186 P.S.-SUPPORT YOUR BOARD
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187
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188
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189
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190 .............................................................................
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191 Volunteer fire departments work, sort of, in rural areas where things
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192 are simple, but in the city we need experts, and that means full time experts.
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193 Not providing fire protection to those who don't pay works in rural areas,
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194 but when the building next to yours is burning down, and it's close (all
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195 buildings in a city are), you can't let ti burn, it will take you with it.
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196 As to crime; I see someone thinks that people will not commit crimes
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197 if they can get it by working. Sounds great, but it just isn't true. The
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198 educated, well adjusted middle class may be this way, but not everybody
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199 is well adjusted, and it is usually easier to steal than to earn. Education
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200 may be the answer, but again it costs money. The religious schools are
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201 not much use to most Americans, since they aren't religious.
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202 we live in a world of diversity, with many different kinds of people,
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203 including rippoffs, so we do need protection. If we were all the same
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204 we would all be safe, but it would sure be dull.
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205 If we all pay each for what he needs, what happens to the handicapped?
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206 If they can't pay, do they starve? What happens when you are out of work
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207 for just long enough to run out of money? Starve?? Or steal?
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208 If we have no government, then anyone who is bigger is in charge.
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209 The mob works this way. Anarchy is cheap, but it only works when there
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210 is no competition. (in other words, not in this world)
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211 We do not live by competition. unrestricted competition means the
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212 bigger company has total control, because it has morte money. We are
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213 able to afford some competition because we work together. Perhaps
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214 this is called socialism, but we might ask why the Japanese are taking
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215 over. In America it is the unions against the companies, against the
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216 government, with the crooks taking pot shots where they can. In Japan,
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217 all work together. (More than here, anyway. It's enough.)
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218 Now, for the question about taxes [again]: the way to reduce taxes
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219 is to reduce the expenditures of government, not the other way around.
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220 I would propose that we are now at the stage where we can actally have
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221 democracy, instead of the republic we now have. The technology that
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222 allows me to get money at 1 am with only a bank card and a memorized
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223 password could easiily be included with the telephone and the data
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224 terminal I am now using to allow every body to vote on each issue,and
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225 I suspect that this would reduce the pork barrel a lot.
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226 I would also propose one other change in the current laws: make
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227 each government worker or politician responsible for his actions.
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228 For example, if the police break into someones house illegally and find
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229 him breaking the law, he goes scott free ( and so do the police)
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230 This is wrong. A criminal should be punished however he is caught.
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231 The police who broke in should be punished for breaking and entering,
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232 just like you or I would be. Politicians should be held responsible
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233 for their campaign claims, and punished for not doing them.
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234 Again, no government is good for the lawbreaker, but the rest of us
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235 need it. This means we have to pay for it (pay taxes), and that we who
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236 supposedly are the government, the people, must also run it, or at least
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237 let the politicos we elect know haw we want it to be run.
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238 =========================================B.A.D.==3-18-83==2240===============
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239 In regard to the statement I made about the volunter rural fire departments
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240 please note that I had perfaced the triad with the disclaimer that each
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241 community should be allowed to setup its services to fit its own needs.
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242 Yes a large city does need a more sophisticated fire department, and
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243 other peoples property is easily jepordized thru anothers problems.
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244 But this does not mean that all communitiesmust follow the example of
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245 the largest or most problem prone community as the federal government
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246 would have. Each community should be allowed to setup its services as
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247 is best suitble for their needs, and not as some beaurocrate in Wash dc
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248 thinks it should be. By the way for any who are interested the going
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249 rate for nonsubscription fire service in Grants Pass, OR is $150 per hour
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250 per fire truck plus $10 per hour per fire fighter. While not what you
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251 would call cheap, I would consider that to be a reasonable price for the
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252 service.
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253 .............................................................
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254 agreed, in fact what is often forgotten about government supplied services
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255 is that you will pay for them no matter if the government is suppling the
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256 service or the private sector is. The difference is that when the government
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257 does it is a monopoly based service and as such the quality of that service
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258 does not have to be at any great level. If however it is provided from the
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259 private sector, the quality must be up there or compition will step in and
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260 take the business away. In the Grants Pass fire service mentioned above this
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261 is exactly what happened. The original fire dept was doing very badly so
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262 a new company came in and provided better service.
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263 ...........................................................
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264 **************************************************************************
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265 G O O D FOR T H E M !!
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266 ******************************.*********************'*************(******
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267 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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268 Oh, sorry. I haven't been on the system lately and I was wondering if I
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269 missed anything too terribly wonderful. The reason I haven't been on here
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270 is because me and my wonderful QX-10 took a trip into the world of
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271 debugging lengthy pascal programs. Please tell me what has been happening.
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272
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273 So long and thanks for all the fish
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274 Arthur Dent
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275
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276
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277 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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278 To: The SYSM
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279 I goofed! I have a list of patches and I either read the wrong
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280 line or got parts of two lines mixed! The CORRECT patch is:
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281
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282 PATCH *2 (ADD=4ED4,FIND=20,CHG=18)
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283
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284 The other patch is to aid in file recovery (if you have a disk
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285 zap program), it stops TRSDOS from clearing the directory entry
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286 when you kill a file. Just the hash index table entry gets cleared!
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287 In case you're interested that patch is:
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288
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289 PATCH *3 (ADD=4FB7,FIND=EDB0,CHG=00)
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290
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291 Note: I haven't ever used this patch, so no guarantees!!
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292 ...............................................................
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293 In regards to the political debate:
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294 1. Do not confuse "legal" with "moral" (and don't confuse either
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295 with "just"). In spite of what the Constitution seems to say
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296 to you, what matters is what the Supreme Court thinks. Thus,
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297 income tax IS legal.
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298 2. The constitution (in its ORIGINAL, UNAMENEDED version)
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299 contains provision for taxes. The tax in question is a HEAD
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300 tax. In other words, divide the national budget by the pop-
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301 ulation and that is how much tax you owe (for EACH MEMBER of
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302 your household!). NO exemptions. Last time I tried to figure
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303 out what it would come to (if it was still used) I got
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304 figures that were unreal >$5000 per person. Don't use the
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305 Constitution in arguments about taxes, we're better off now!
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306 3. Some people have mentioned Siberia. I suggest that they read
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307 an essay titled: THE TRUE HORROR OF SOVIET INTERNAL EXILE
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308 FROM DISSENT TO DOCILITY. This essay is in a book called the
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309 Survival of Freedom, edited by Jerry Pournelle & John F. Carr
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310 This book contains a number of essays and stories dealing
|
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311 with freedom & related issues. I think that all of the
|
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|
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312 participants in these discussions would benefit from reading
|
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|
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313 this book. A wide variety of viewpoints are covered, I doubt
|
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|
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314 that ANYONE will not be able to find something to agree with
|
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|
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315 (and LOTS to think about!).
|
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|
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316 ----------------------------------------------------------------
|
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317
|
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318
|
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319 IN REGARD TO THIS ONGOING POLITICAL PHILOSOPHISING.........
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320 QUESTION????.....#1
|
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321 is it the responsibility of the residents of a country
|
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322 to suport without question, the rules and laws of that country
|
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323 regardless of how just these laws are?
|
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|
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324 ......#2
|
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325 How much power should the heads of any state be legally
|
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326 endowed with to carry out their jobs. AND, who should be required to
|
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327 carry the finacial burden , ie.(salaries,expense acounts, and operating
|
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328 funds).
|
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329 .......#3
|
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330 is or is it not the responsibility of the people any nation
|
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331 to fight social and political injustices especialy when the ones
|
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|
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332 suffering injustice, suffer at the hand of the government they support
|
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333 .......#4
|
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334 WHEN,OH WHEN WILL SOMEONE BE ABLE TO RATIONALY EXPLAIN WHY THE
|
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335 KILLING OF A HUMAN LIFE IS ONLY JUSTIFIED WHEN DONE IN THE NAME
|
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336 OF "FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY" YET IN PEACE-TIME,IT IS CALLED "MURDER"
|
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337
|
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338 DOES THIS STIR UP ANY DEBATE???????????
|
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339 I HOPE SO
|
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340 sincerely... SPAM THE HERETIC
|
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|
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341 off
|
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342 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
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343 In the USA we describe our government as being by the people, but in
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344 other places other terms are used. Neither is correct, all governments
|
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345 run on power and tradition. It is theorectically possible for anyone in
|
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346 the USA to reach any position, but in practice, this is not true.
|
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347 Now for the question: Is this good or bad?
|
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348 The positions of power in any government, and especilly a powerful
|
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349 one like the USA, are very critical and dangerous; we need good people
|
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|
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350 there. Most of us couldn't do the job. (Sorry about that, but it is true.)
|
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351 Those in power control who gets there next. It requires enormous amounts
|
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352 of money to be elected to even rather low level positions, and a good
|
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353 understanding of advertizing. When you are there, the job is now to do
|
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|
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354 what is needed to stay there, as well as the supposed duties of the position.
|
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|
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355 This is a very good filter to eliminate the less capable, and it also cuts
|
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356 most of out even if we are capable. In other words, the USA is ruled by
|
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357 politicians, but the govvernment is run by the gov workers. Inertia
|
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|
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358 prevents fast changes. You really don't have much say in the running of
|
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|
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359 things unless you become political, so an outsider who wants to change
|
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|
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360 things must first become what he is trying to eliminate. This is called
|
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|
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361 stability, and I think it is a good thing. In Russia, the same thing
|
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|
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362 applies, even though the form of government is different.
|
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|
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363 AS to must we obey the government, even if it is wrong, is sticky.
|
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364 Who decides it is wrong? Who defines wrong?
|
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|
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365 I have not heard any real mention of freedoms here. Is this because
|
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|
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366 they are so taken for granted they are ignored? Same for rights.
|
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|
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367 Rights and freedoms are not something we get by being humans, they are
|
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|
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368 bought, with sweat, blood, and tears (sorry about the paraphrase). And
|
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|
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369 then we give these away to anyone who we want to. Society decides which
|
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|
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370 ones it will allow, and how much, and each one of us can take these and
|
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|
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371 will be be punished for taking more. However, they are not free; they
|
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|
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372 must be paid for.
|
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|
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373 Freedom to worship: requires that 'worship' is of a kind acceptable
|
|||
|
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374 e.g. sacrificing babies is not allowed, even if your religion demands it.
|
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|
|
375 It also implies freedom to assemble in large groups, which requires
|
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|
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376 enough social stablity that this isn't the start of a rior or worse.
|
|||
|
|
377 Freedom from fear: requires the restrictions of other's freedoms.
|
|||
|
|
378 Freedom from want: this is the basis of socialism; it requires some
|
|||
|
|
379 means to distribute wealth (food, etc) to those who need it, and this
|
|||
|
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380 implies the taking from those who have it.
|
|||
|
|
381 There are a lot of others, but we choose which ones we will allow
|
|||
|
|
382 in some way, some official (statutes and laws), most unoffial.
|
|||
|
|
383 Now comes the question:who decides, and how. In the USA we vote for
|
|||
|
|
384 politicians who decide, in some countries power is taken by force,
|
|||
|
|
385 elsewhere it is hereditary. There is no evidence any of these is better
|
|||
|
|
386 in the long run, but I like our system. Changing methods involves civil
|
|||
|
|
387 war to do it quickly, and we can't afford this. During the change law
|
|||
|
|
388 and order breaks down, and opportunists jump in (e.g. the Reds in Russia)
|
|||
|
|
389 We have chosen to expect certain things from our society, and our society
|
|||
|
|
390 woking together is called '
|
|||
|
|
391 'government'. It provides certain services, and therefore has a price.
|
|||
|
|
392 We have decided to pay this price by taxes, but how the taxes are paid,
|
|||
|
|
393 and by whom is variable. Oregon is now considering a new tax, sales tax.
|
|||
|
|
394 Is this a "good" tax? Or is taxing industry better? What are the side
|
|||
|
|
395 effects? (Such as a business moving to somewhere that has lower business
|
|||
|
|
396 taxes because it has sales tax) Who will decide, and how?
|
|||
|
|
397 Oh, don't tell me, tell your congressman, or your state representative,
|
|||
|
|
398 only he can do much about it.
|
|||
|
|
399 And don't complain about taxes until you stop using the benefits of
|
|||
|
|
400 society they pay for, like the ability to buy food shipped over public
|
|||
|
|
401 roads, the freedom to leave your home unguarded, because we have police,
|
|||
|
|
402 etc. It could be paid for differently, but it isn't.
|
|||
|
|
403 Governments are often not too efficient, but don't expect private
|
|||
|
|
404 businesses to do what we now have governments do, they will only do what
|
|||
|
|
405 is safe and immediately profitable. UPS is cheaper from Portland to SF,
|
|||
|
|
406 but don't expect it to ever cover rural areas, it simply isn't profitable.
|
|||
|
|
407 Competition will bring down the price, if there is profits to be made,
|
|||
|
|
408 but seldom better the quality., Free ncompetition also implies Atari firing
|
|||
|
|
409 most of its American workers, and moving to Japan. Whatever is cheaper.
|
|||
|
|
410 With the end of government regulation your phone bill is going up.(Maybe
|
|||
|
|
411 double.)
|
|||
|
|
412 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
|||
|
|
413 To Spam
|
|||
|
|
414 Your question 1 is not one question, but 2: a must we obey, b can we
|
|||
|
|
415 question? The answer to these have shaped our government into 3 parts,
|
|||
|
|
416 with executive watched over by the courts, but the answer to both is "yes."
|
|||
|
|
417 Question 2 ask about the power of 'heads of goverment', but does not
|
|||
|
|
418 separate heads from the rest, and here it depends on the situation.
|
|||
|
|
419 As to who pays, we do because we benefit.
|
|||
|
|
420 Question 3 ask should we fight injustice, but what is injustice?
|
|||
|
|
421 And how do you have in mind? In a democracy whatever the majority decides
|
|||
|
|
422 is right, in our system we assign powers to certain people by a variety
|
|||
|
|
423 of means, with a variety of checks on how he uses or abuses it. If he
|
|||
|
|
424 hurts someone doing his job is this injustice? Please note that moral
|
|||
|
|
425 and legal are not in any way related, and we can really only require
|
|||
|
|
426 legal. If you want more than that get the laws changed. If you mean
|
|||
|
|
427 things like discrimination, you are talking about cutting down on individual
|
|||
|
|
428 freedom.
|
|||
|
|
429 question 4 murder: In a violent world it is necessary to defend yourself.
|
|||
|
|
430 It is necessary to defend your family and friends. And when the only
|
|||
|
|
431 method of defense is war, it is needed. This violence is seldom needed in
|
|||
|
|
432 "peacetime" and almost never between individuals. But why are you excited
|
|||
|
|
433 about murder? Dead people don't suffer, and we all die sometime. Have you
|
|||
|
|
434 killed someone? More to the point is killing someone with a gun worse
|
|||
|
|
435 than running over someone with a car, or how about the engineer who
|
|||
|
|
436 designed or the worker who built a highway intersection that fools people
|
|||
|
|
437 into doing things that kill them? Is selling cigarettes (medical studies
|
|||
|
|
438 say they cause more premature deaths than anything else in society) murder?
|
|||
|
|
439 Is putting someone out of his misery murder? How about denying medical care
|
|||
|
|
440 to someone who can't pay? (Should doctors have more charity because they
|
|||
|
|
441 can?)
|
|||
|
|
442 I beleive we should pay more attention to mutilation than to murder,
|
|||
|
|
443 a mangled person hurts. Our lack of medical care does this, our hiways
|
|||
|
|
444 injure millions, we allow cigarettes, we act as if the house fire caused
|
|||
|
|
445 by carelessnes is an unpreventable "accident". Is this injustice, or
|
|||
|
|
446 simply the hazards of living? Is executing a criminal murder, or should
|
|||
|
|
447 we turn him loose to try again?
|
|||
|
|
448 ===============================B.A.D.===1722===3-20-83============
|
|||
|
|
449
|
|||
|
|
450
|
|||
|
|
451
|
|||
|
|
458 break
|
|||
|
|
467 should i be asked to pay the bill for something i feel is injust~
|
|||
|
|
468 ...............................................................
|
|||
|
|
469 Though this be "heresy": Hereditary rule has a number of points
|
|||
|
|
470 in its favor that few other systems do. The main "advantage"
|
|||
|
|
471 is that you know who is going to be running things early so
|
|||
|
|
472 you can train him or her for the job. I admit that historically
|
|||
|
|
473 that isn't how it was done but it could be. Unfortunately you
|
|||
|
|
474 have no guarantee that your future ruler will be capable of
|
|||
|
|
475 handling the job!
|
|||
|
|
476
|
|||
|
|
477 As for not wanting to pay for things that you feel are unjust,
|
|||
|
|
478 well you have several alternatives:
|
|||
|
|
479 1. try to get things changed (vote, lobby, etc)
|
|||
|
|
480 2. move (don't make comments about "love it or leave it"! In some
|
|||
|
|
481 countries you CAN'T leave! In the US you can leave unless
|
|||
|
|
482 you're wanted by the police or something.<you can leave anyway
|
|||
|
|
483 ask anyone who moved to Canada to avoid the draft. Try THAT
|
|||
|
|
484 in the USSR!>)
|
|||
|
|
485 3. Don't pay! True, you'll probably go to jail but if you'll let
|
|||
|
|
486 that stop you.... (Remember Thoreau, Gandhi, and others have
|
|||
|
|
487 gone to jail for their beliefs. Are YOU better than them?)
|
|||
|
|
488 4. As to being FORCED to pay: "You cannot enslave a free man -
|
|||
|
|
489 the most you can do is kill him." I'm not sure who said it,
|
|||
|
|
490 but it is a fairly valid point. In the words of a song from
|
|||
|
|
491 the Nazi concentration camps "My thoughts are free". As I
|
|||
|
|
492 said above, you CHOOSE to pay rather than face the consequence
|
|||
|
|
493 of not paying. They can take your money, but they can't make
|
|||
|
|
494 you give it to them! In 1775(?) Americans were "forced" to pay
|
|||
|
|
495 a tax on tea, weren't they...remember a party held in Boston
|
|||
|
|
496 harbor?
|
|||
|
|
497 F - I W
|
|||
|
|
498 (Freedom - I Won't)
|
|||
|
|
499 ...............................................................
|
|||
|
|
500 BRING BACK THE VAL-GALS !!!!!!!!!!
|
|||
|
|
501 0+0+0+0+0++0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+
|
|||
|
|
502 (WHERE ARE THEY, NOW THAT WE NEED THEM ??)
|
|||
|
|
503
|
|||
|
|
504 THEY MADE MORE SENSE THAN THE GIBBERISH THAT I JUST READ.- MASTER BLASTER.
|
|||
|
|
505
|
|||
|
|
506
|
|||
|
|
507
|
|||
|
|
508 ***************************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
509
|
|||
|
|
510 NUKE RUSSIA AND THAT WILL BE THAT
|
|||
|
|
511
|
|||
|
|
512
|
|||
|
|
513 S.T.
|
|||
|
|
514 HOW THE HELL ARE YOU??
|
|||
|
|
515 ****************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
516 *******************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
517 ************************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
518
|
|||
|
|
519 Just who are all the people that rattle on in all the
|
|||
|
|
520 abbove ..... I can not really describe what one would call
|
|||
|
|
521 what the writers of all the above could bbbe called.
|
|||
|
|
522
|
|||
|
|
523 Short sighted, near sighted, undistinguished rattlings
|
|||
|
|
524 of individuals that possibily could be of a varity
|
|||
|
|
525 closer to that of a .....clod. a lump..a empty headed
|
|||
|
|
526 zero... that most any person tcould out think in a
|
|||
|
|
527 sealed paper bag....
|
|||
|
|
528
|
|||
|
|
529 now all you speach writers out there keep it up..
|
|||
|
|
530 Mike must just love it or he would trash the crap...
|
|||
|
|
531
|
|||
|
|
532 ***************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
533 ******************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
534 ****************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
535 ACTUALLY I DON'T REALLY CARE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. I DO HOWEVER
|
|||
|
|
536 FIND IT INTERESTING THAT THERE WOULD BE SUCH INTENSE FEELINGS IN
|
|||
|
|
537 THESE THINGS, BUT THEN THAT IS THE WAY THINGS ARE I SUPPOSE.
|
|||
|
|
538 IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW MY FEELINGS IN THIS NOTE THAT I VOTED
|
|||
|
|
539 FOR REAGAN NOT BECAUSE I AGREE WHOLELY TO HIS IDEAS, BUT RATHER
|
|||
|
|
540 BECAUSE I WOULD RATHER SEE A BUFFOON WHO IS AT LEAST RUNNING THINGS
|
|||
|
|
541 EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT WHOLELY TO MY LIKEING OVER ONE WHO CANN'T EVEN
|
|||
|
|
542 TIE HIS OWN SHOELACES WITHOUT FALLING ON HIS FACE.
|
|||
|
|
543 ***** CISTOP MIKE WITH A POLITICAL WHIMSY **** 21 MAR 83 *****
|
|||
|
|
544 =====================================================================
|
|||
|
|
545 There's nothing wrong with strong feelings when they mark an commitment
|
|||
|
|
546 to a search for truth. Those who deride discussions like the ones above
|
|||
|
|
547 as gibberish do nothing but confess their fear of a realm in which they
|
|||
|
|
548 know they can only flounder helplessly. Here's a few comments on some
|
|||
|
|
549 of the above...
|
|||
|
|
550 (1) The issue isn't whether we think people will get things by
|
|||
|
|
551 production rather than stealing. The question is do we form together
|
|||
|
|
552 into a society that based on principles (i.e. man's nature) that are
|
|||
|
|
553 rational. Just because we can look out and observe a statistical
|
|||
|
|
554 profile that would lead us to believe men would steal rather than
|
|||
|
|
555 produce does't mean we have discovered an essential characteristic of
|
|||
|
|
556 man's nature. Man does have free will. A view of man (and a system
|
|||
|
|
557 based on it) that presupposes a built-in tendency to evil is wrong,
|
|||
|
|
558 in my opinion. Not only does it contradict the fact of free will, it
|
|||
|
|
559 is blatently malevolent. Those who ask us to accept a system (eg
|
|||
|
|
560 socialism, communisism, and other forms of government statism) that is
|
|||
|
|
561 based on a view of their fellow man (read us) as being vicious and
|
|||
|
|
562 evil should be regarded as suspect. I think the great majority of
|
|||
|
|
563 people are honest, productive people and if given a system that didn't
|
|||
|
|
564 stand in their way, would grow more in the benevolent direction than
|
|||
|
|
565 the brutish direction. In other words, man is neither good nor evil by
|
|||
|
|
566 nature. A system that assumes either is dangerously in error. Many of
|
|||
|
|
567 the pro-government statments above explicitly state this malevolent
|
|||
|
|
568 view toward man. If you think your fellow man is inherently evil then
|
|||
|
|
569 speak first for yourself!
|
|||
|
|
570 (2) Who decides what is right and wrong? Everyone and anyone. Who
|
|||
|
|
571 decides whether rocks fall up or down? Who deicdes whether the sun or
|
|||
|
|
572 the earth is the center of the solar system? The argument that society
|
|||
|
|
573 decides what is right and wrong is pure bullshit. Who is society? If
|
|||
|
|
574 society decides that the earth is flat or that they can rightfully steal
|
|||
|
|
575 from you that doen't make it right. Issues of truth (be they in politics
|
|||
|
|
576 or science) are settled by the application of reasoned thought. Not by
|
|||
|
|
577 vote or prayer.
|
|||
|
|
578 (3) Rights are conditions of existence required by man's nature
|
|||
|
|
579 for his proper survival (Ayn Rand). Governments, by their vary nature,
|
|||
|
|
580 violate the rights of man thru their monopolistic initiation of force
|
|||
|
|
581 throughout a given territory. This is "mob rule" and a far worse
|
|||
|
|
582 kind of "chaos" than the simple and healthy operation of a free market.
|
|||
|
|
583 You don't go out and take a public pole to decide whether we should all
|
|||
|
|
584 run our cars on milk. Neither should we accept governments (and their
|
|||
|
|
585 taxation) because an ignorant majority votes to impose them upon us.
|
|||
|
|
586 =================TANSTAAFL=========22MAR83===0125=====================
|
|||
|
|
587 It's nice to know we are liked, as someone up above does.
|
|||
|
|
588 In answer to the claims made in the last message:
|
|||
|
|
589 3) it is easy to claim rights are essential human truths, etc, but if
|
|||
|
|
590 this were true, all peoples would have and claim the same rights.
|
|||
|
|
591 They don't.
|
|||
|
|
592 2)who decides? In physics, truths are found& nobody decides (maybe God does)
|
|||
|
|
593 in social systems right and wrong are relative, and somebody or group
|
|||
|
|
594 decides what is ,more important or allowed.
|
|||
|
|
595 1) good and evil: Even if 99% of the people are good, and will always do
|
|||
|
|
596 what is right, there is still enough left that don't that we still need
|
|||
|
|
597 police. In any case, it is not at all apparent that we are inherently good.
|
|||
|
|
598 Even worse, good depends on where you sit.
|
|||
|
|
599
|
|||
|
|
600 A case in point. Should we pay publicly for drug research? The drug
|
|||
|
|
601 companies will make a profit on anything we find, so let them do the
|
|||
|
|
602 research. But look at DMSO: it's cheap, readliy available and unpatentable.
|
|||
|
|
603 No drug company will pay for testing and proving if it is safe, effective,
|
|||
|
|
604 causes cancer, etc., and no one else has the money to do so. Again, look
|
|||
|
|
605 at research into aging, and its prevention. Who wants to pay for this?
|
|||
|
|
606 Certainly not the drug industry, success here would cut into there profits.
|
|||
|
|
607 Not the insurance companies. Public supported? Remember all medical
|
|||
|
|
608 research lesds to profits for the drug and medical industries.
|
|||
|
|
609 The drug companies, like all other companies are out to make a profit,
|
|||
|
|
610 so they will work on drugs for common diseases, that can be sold at high
|
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611 prices to many people. What hapens if you get a rare disease?
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612 Is it unjust to spend public money on a very few, or is it unjust to
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613 tell them "so sorry"?
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614
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615 Society is people working together. This means, among other things, we must
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616 all be going the same direction, and therefore we need something that says
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617 which way to go. This is called government.
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618 Society also implies both an increase in freedoms and rights (several
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619 people can do more than 1 can) and also a decrease in rights (if two
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620 people want the same banana, and there is only one banana, who gets it?)
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621 Split the banana works for 2, but how about if 200 want it? I am in favor
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622 of individual rights, but there is always a point where public rights
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623 are more important, and it is NOT EVER easy to decide where this point is.
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624 Away from this very fine line, it gets easier, but everyone has a different
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625 idea as to just where to make the break.
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626 ========================================B.A.D.===========3-22-83
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627 ====================================================================
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628 (1) People possess rights whether they claim them or not. Rights are
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629 ============ NO ROOOM LEFT ON THIS SIDE, WILL TRY AGAIN ON OTHER SIDE====
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