textfiles/messages/ALANWESTON/1992/CIS11_07.txt

#: 16714 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    19-Oct-92  09:57:18
Sb: #16707-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)


OK.  I'll see what feels more comfortable here.  I only have a problem
with someone clicking on an .lzh file or something like that.  I'd hate to
see what some of the editors would do to the file. |-Q 

UNIX has several other attr bits that you can look at and there is no real
fast way to tell if the file is 8-bit data or 7-bit text. (Could even be 8-bit
text).

I'd like to avoid slowing down the speed, from the time the user clicks on a
directory, till the time the icons get displayed.

My guess about the attr function is that I should really build it into DeskTop.
I already have the attr byte stored in memory, I just have to add the
point-n-click routine to change 'em on the fly and save it back to the file
descriptor.

Over the weekend I found some fun little 'features' in Desktop.  Try this one,
open the clock, then go back and open the calender.  You get an extra overlay
that won't go away.  I'm using the 'cal' that came with the TOPS package.  It's
fixed now, but was giving me fits before.

Have you noticed the amount of time IconHacker takes to read a directory?  Here
I have about 48 Icons in my icon directory.  It was taking 18 seconds to read
the dir and display it.  I changed the way it looks at the files in the cgfx.l
and now it takes a little over 2 seconds!!  What a difference.  I was truly
amazed at the speed increase.  This reminds me, I have to get some Icons
uploaded with AIFs for you guys.

 - Mike -

There are 2 Replies.

#: 16720 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    19-Oct-92  20:00:20
Sb: #16714-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

I can't duplicate your 'open the clock then the cal' problem .. but them my
version of Desktop isn't complete yet. No gclock or gcalc. I did enable the TOP
calender .. and there in lies the new found trouble.

Double click on an icon (I've used sterm and InfoXpress both for this test) to
execute a program. Flip back to the Desktop and click on Cal ...

All appears right with the world ..except we're missing the <click> mouse
message ... and things are hung.

Flip back to the program that you brought up via icon and quit. You're alomst
dropped to a shell ...

Flip back to the Desktop to find the <click> message is now there and thigns
function fine on that window. Flip to where your selected program was running
to find a dead window.


It sounds as if things are going well for your next release version. I hope
you'll take a peek at some of the ideas I mentioned in my short letter to you
regarding some possible enhancements.

You _did_ received the note by now .. jes?

Some more that I didn't mention but I think Mark has ...

The wastebasket file concept of discarding files. It's alwasy nice to undo
something you didn't mean to do.  :-)

Resizable Shell window from the menu  ... makes it a snap to create multiple
windows on one screen that we can now <click> our way through.



*- Steve -*



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16732 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    22-Oct-92  22:00:36
Sb: #16720-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)


Your wish is my command. :)  Resizable shell from the Desk menu installed. As
far as the wastebasket goes.  When you quit, it will show you the Trash and let
you reclaim whatever you want out of it, also you will have the option of
emtpying the trash at this point.   I still have to work this into desktop, but
the idea is ready to be implemented.

I sent Mark the latest I've been working on.  He can pass it on to you.

 - Mike -

Yes, I got the letter.  Thanks. :)

There are 3 Replies.

#: 16739 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    23-Oct-92  08:09:24
Sb: #16732-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

Got you latest.....still very nice.  I tried it in the highest resolution
screen and had a clock and a shell running in the same window.  If the screen
flicker wasn't there, this would be a very usable configuration.

A couple observations:  When you start the clock and then flip through windows,
you get a window with just Desktop on it and then the next window has Desktop
AND the clock.  This seems to be a problem with software othe people have
written too....window flipping can cause you to loose things.  Also notice that
the mouse can disappear when flipping too.  Again, not a fault with your
program I think, but rather the window software.

Selecting ATTR does nothing than blink up a window.  Are you going to add this
in or are you waiting for me?  I thought you said you would do it.

Glcock is rather simple.  I know I am being picky, but I would be a little
annoyed if I payed money for this and got that simple little clock and no alarm
features.  I am guessing that this is a simple first version and not the final
one.

You can't delete a directory from within Desktop.  I can make one, bnut
errr...but clicking on it jst opens it and I cna't do anything else except GET
INFO.  Sheeesh...last sentance was a typing disaster!

There were some other things I wanted to mention, but can't remember now. I'll
let you know after playing with it some more.  I'm ***REALLY*** looking forward
to the "click on a text file to load into the editor" feature.  This will make
Desktop something useful instead of a "neat-o whiz-bang" super demo.

Mark

There are 2 Replies.

#: 16743 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    23-Oct-92  17:17:38
Sb: #16739-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)

I don't think you're "losing" things when flipping windows... you're just
bringing different ones to the front, in order.

I'm changing the mouse-flip tho, so that it only changes screens (thus, the
window order will stay the same visually in each screen unless you
intentionally change them).

kev

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16747 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    23-Oct-92  21:04:28
Sb: #16743-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

Uhh ... Kev .. I've had Desktop completely dissappear while flipping through
the windows with both the 3rd mouse button as well as the F9 anf F10 keys.

I was able to 'get it back' by specifically using the <Shift><F1> combination
to pull up /term.

Something's amiss. Whether it's Desktop or Kwindows I'm not offering an opinion
at this time. Too many 'new' toys to play with!  :-)



There are 2 Replies.

#: 16748 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    23-Oct-92  21:18:12
Sb: #16747-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)

Too strange :-)  Thanks, I'll try to duplicate it happening here.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16758 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  10:19:05
Sb: #16748-Desktop hacks
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

Kev,

I apologize for the brevity .... I was running interactively and was an hour
past my last 'Be right there, Lisa'. I wonder why she puts up with me! :-)

I've not been able to duplicate it at will .... but it's happened often enough
that I'm sure it's not just machine related.

I'll see if I can find the pattern.


*- Steve -*



#: 16750 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  00:16:15
Sb: #16747-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)

Okay, I think I found and fixed the problem with window selection.  From the
comments in my code, apparently I'd meant to fix it before <grin>. Come to
think of it, I've had shell windows "go away" sometimes while a forked program
had control of that window:

One of the requirements for selectability is that some process has selected
that path (by default or on purpose) for input.  However, sometimes this is
difficult to tell, especially (as in this case) if the last user of a device
had selected another window.  So I added a search of *all* the processes with
an open path to a candidate selectable window.

(Select is one of the most complicated pieces of the driver, since it has to
make decisions based on program and user preferences, as well as assume some
defaults... and in our case, work around the lack of a "</1" type of
redirection in our shells.  Not to mention keep track of the software-driven
cursors, but use as little cpu time as possible on them.  Whew!)

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16759 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  10:19:08
Sb: #16750-Desktop hacks
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

Great!

Well ignore my last message, then! :-)

I'll turn my full attention toward bashing Desktop and InfoXpress.



*- Steve -*



#: 16751 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  00:19:35
Sb: #16739-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)


Hmmmm. :)  Well, I added the click on a text file, bring up the editor to
desktop this morning.  Also have just about completed the Attr option.

On window cycleing, if you click on the backwin icon, the upper right corner of
the menubar, you would have the clock pop up.  What is happening is that the
clock is behind the desktop.  You can shrink the desktop and see it, really, it
is there. :)  The backwin icon puts the current window at the back of the stack
of windows on the current screen.  If the clock and desktop are both on the
same screen, then the full screen app will cover the others, right.

On the alarm stuff, I'm not quite sure what the alarm would do.  Say I do add
and alarm call, who's going to ring the bell?  Can the child, clock, set up an
alarm for the parent?  Or are you suggesting that the alarm be valid until the
clock itself is closed?

Would you prefer allowing the user to delete directories?  It wouldn't be hard
to do, but there would be no way to recover the deleted directory.

Main reason you don't have the click on file, pop into editor thing yet is I
wanted to finish the attr function before I made it work.

I'm not sure why the mouse goes away,  OH, it does go away when a select is
done and the mouse doesn't move.  You have to move the mouse before it will
reappear.  This was done on purpose so you don't end up with a mouse pointer
annoying you until you actually need it.

Keep those cards and letters comming,  ;)  Good input is hard to find these
days,

 - Mike -

There are 2 Replies.

#: 16755 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  08:02:05
Sb: #16751-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

Just thought of something else.  Can you put some sort of timeout in Desktop so
if the mouse or keyboard is not touched in X minutes it will "blank" the
screen?  Blanking could be just setting the fore back and border to black.
Would be very handy for those of us who keep the systems running all the time,
and add a more "professional" look to Desktop.

Looking forward to these extras!

Mark

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16771 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    25-Oct-92  00:22:21
Sb: #16755-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)


Mark,

Make up an Icon that starts up Maze, OK. <Smile>  I really don't want to put
any screen savers in it.  Plasma is a real cool screen saver too.



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16777 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    25-Oct-92  08:13:42
Sb: #16771-Desktop hacks
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

Well, OK.  But I think you are wrong for not putting one in. My opinion.

Mark

#: 16760 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  10:19:15
Sb: #16751-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

I, too, see a real need for the user to be able to delete directories. One of
my most favorite uses of Multiview was in housekeeping chores. I expect I'll
find Desktop very handy to delete files and cleanup directories.

To that end, I discovered that you've enable the wastebasket file concept in
this last release. Took me a few moments to figure out what you named the trash
directory, but a couple of minutes with deD popped up .TRASH.

I dropped that hidden directory on /dd and it works like a champ!

But ... (you know this was comming ...)

In wanting to delete several files, I've discovered a 'feature' of desktop gets
in the way. You apparently resort and redisplay the directory from the top each
time a file is dropped into the trashcan.

This makes for a lot of clicking to get back to where you were in the display
so you can continue with the deleting chores. Is there some way to selectively
disable the resort/redisplay feature? Or may it shouldn't be done except upon
reselecting the directory?

Thanks for the graphic utils you sent. I'll post the gif file of desktop
directly. What did you use to make the iff file a gif file?



*- Steve -*



There are 2 Replies.

#: 16772 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    25-Oct-92  00:22:35
Sb: #16760-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)


A long time ago, on a proto single-board MM/1, I wrote a little diddy called
ciff2gif.  That's what I used to convert the IFF snap to GIF.

Yeah, I noticed this 'feature' the other night while deleting Icons you guys
don't need from the tmp icon dir I had created on /r0.  What's going on is
this;  when you delete an entry, it gets deleted from the internal list in
memory, then it will re-display the directory without resorting or rereading
the directory.  I just wasn't keeping track of where you were in the directory
before the delete, so i redisplays from the top.  <Easy fix, I'll do it now>

I need to add some other things too, but they will take time.  I've been
thinking about the double click to bring up the editor thing more.  I much
prefer an Edit option on the Desk Menu.  Another thing I still want to add is a
Program screen.   This would make it trivial to select a program, then a file
and would make the double click edit uneeded.  Like before I'll see what's most
comfortable here and let you guys play with the results.

 - Mike -

There are 2 Replies.

#: 16776 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    25-Oct-92  08:10:42
Sb: #16772-Desktop hacks
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

So a snap is a IFF format file?  Could I get hold of your ciff2gif utility? Or
perhaps you might want to post it. I feel a few more Desktop screens coming on
....




*- Steve -*



#: 16778 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    25-Oct-92  08:19:18
Sb: #16772-Desktop hacks
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

I hope, by adding an Edit option to a menu, you arn't thinking of leaving out
the "click-on-a-file-and-start-the-editor" feature we've been talking about!

Mark

#: 16774 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    25-Oct-92  00:22:55
Sb: #16760-Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)


Yeah, I should call deldir in an overlay on Folders (Dirs).



#: 16742 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    23-Oct-92  16:32:57
Sb: #16732-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

Good to know the letter arrived!

Mark's passed on the latest version to me last night and I see that the
resizable shell has been implemented. I'll poke around and see what else is
new.

On the wastebasket thing ... I do hope you plan on a menu choice of emptying
the trash as well. Right now, as you describe it, I'd have to quit desktop
before I get that option.

THe MM/1 is up non-stop and I've yet to 'quit' the application. With a menu
choice, I can empty at will.

On another topic  <well ... sort of related> ...

How about uploading a couple icons for Iconhacker? And when we spoke on the
phone you mentioned uploading a pointer editor and a few other 'goodies'. Have
you been able to get to this yet?




*- Steve -*



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16752 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  00:19:43
Sb: #16742-Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)


Good idea about Empty Trash being a menu option.  I'll see how fast I can get
to it.

I sent you some files in mail, you can pass 'em onto Mark, too.

I'll get those Icons/AIFs together right now.  Look for 'em if you see this
message.  I think it's time to release Icon Hacker to the GP too.

 - Mike -

#: 16803 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    29-Oct-92  05:18:07
Sb: #16732-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Eric Crichlow 71051,3516
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

    First I tell you that proportionally spaced and positioned scroll bars are
the way to go about three years ago, and you just now get around to
implementing it.

    Then I tell you a few months ago that we need a movable resizable shell for
the windowing system, which I did a little (very little) work on, (never did
get it quite right,) and now you write that too.

    You're starting to come around a little quicker, but you really should
start listening to me in a more timely manner. ;-)

    On a side note, Chet and I are working on new icon and clipboard standards.
I'll fire you off a copy when we have something concrete. Your input is
welcome. It would be nice if we could all be in agreement on this.

..Eric...

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16816 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    30-Oct-92  00:14:44
Sb: #16803-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Eric Crichlow 71051,3516 (X)


HAHAHAHA.  Yeah, you've been way ahead of me on what we should have for OSK. I
just seem to get around to putting it in first. |-}

I'd love to see what you come up with for a clipboard standard.  And your ICON
standard too.

Thanks,

 - Mike -

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16883 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-92  06:06:32
Sb: #16816-Desktop hacks
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

Another thought on Desktop.  Can you change GifShow to show the GIF file in the
current window?  Reason is, when clicking on a GIF file from within Desktop,
GifShow opens up two windows.  If you want to look at several of them, you
eventually run out of window descriptors and it trashes one or more of the
already opened windows.

Mark



#: 16744 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    23-Oct-92  17:47:19
Sb: #16714-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Speaking of file attributes, etc.

One of the problems with retrofitting windows/gui to OS-9, is that it was
created before such things became popular.  Other systems, which were designed
to have desktops and often to run on only one type of hardware, have file
systems (and file formats, not our text-oriented Unix style) more oriented
towards windowing.

So... what if we were to hack RBF to add some more information?  I haven't
really put much (any! :-) thought into this yet, but it would seem quite
practical for hard disks at least.

For instance: comment files, optional file type, icon file link, default
application to run, etc.

This is all just a passing thought, but I figured the resulting comments (and
screaming :-) could be instructive.  It just seems so crude for programs to
have to open the disk raw in order to get optional info in a timely manner.

kev

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16753 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  00:19:59
Sb: #16744-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)


Yeah, I know what you mean.  I have to setuid(0) get the info then reset the
uid when I grab the file info from disk.  This is harmless if you reset it, but
if you don't watch out, 'Instant Super-User'.  <sigh>   I make damn sure it
get's reset before exiting the routine.

Extra info would be nice, but program that are not written for the GUI will
possibly choke, and we want to avoid that.  What would be very, extramely
useful would be if uWare had a word for the attr.  That way we could tell the
difference between bin data and binary files and text.  Oh well...

 - Mike -

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16754 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  02:17:59
Sb: #16753-Desktop hacks
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

I was really kind of thinking of optional info.

For example, you could pull an old Carl Kreider trick and use all that empty
space in the "." and ".." directory entries.  Say, put an LSN pointer to a file
with info on the files.  Any new files would be added as desktop came through.

Hmm. Never mind on that idea.... you could just do that with a .file you made
yourself!  That is, when Desktop goes into a directory and doesn't find a
precompiled .desktop file with info on all the other files, you create one (or,
if a file is new or deleted, update your .desktop file).

That way, most of the time that Desktop enters a directory, all the info on the
files has already been researched!  Result: huge speedup even if you have
different icons for basic, C, scripts, etc files.

I'm typing this in on-line, but I think you should do this, the more I think
about it!  The only "catch" would be if someone put a different type of file
with the same old name as a previous one.  But then, you could just let the
user trigger a .desktop update in that case.

Well enuf thinking on the fly.  Later! - kev

#: 16737 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    22-Oct-92  22:01:16
Sb: #16707-Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)


OK, I'll doit.  I'll make a double click on a file open the file into the
editor specified bye the env var EDITOR.

Give me a few days,

 - Mike -

#: 16717 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    19-Oct-92  09:58:14
Sb: #16711-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X)


Ed,

Doesn't a 'file recognizer' program run on each and every file the GUI
encounters slow the desktop way down?  Seems to me it would.  Or does G-Windows
only check it the execution bit(s) are set?  Even then it seems to me it would
really slow the thing down.  Does it?

 - Mike -

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16724 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    21-Oct-92  02:39:42
Sb: #16717-Desktop hacks
Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)


 Mike,

 Pulling up a directory using DESKTOP isn't exactly a 'speedy Gonzoles'.
 Much of the speed depends upon whether DESKTOP can recognize what the
 file is from its extension.  If there is no extension, it will read the
 file's header.  Once a directory has been read, the information is
 there 'permanently' - until either DESKTOP is exited or that window
 is killed.  Of course, the window can be hibernated to help reduce
 screen clutter.  DESKTOP reads a script file to determine what program
 to call, if any, when a file is selected.  I'm appending a typical
 configuration file.

 Times to read a directory the first time are -

          CMDS, all binaries, 406 files, 50 seconds
          a C directory with mostly .c files, a few .h files and
             a makefile, 44 files, 4 seconds

 DESKTOP does not use dedicated file icons.  Instead, it has several
 different icons for directories, text files, images, .c, .r .a files,
 programs, etc.  The type of file is listed in the center of the icon
 and the file name at the bottom.  If the file type can't be identified,
 the icon is filled with 0s and 1s.  Double clicking the icon will
 either execute the program or call the program the file type calls for
 in accordance with the configuration file.  Trying to execute an
 unidentified file results in an error (as to be expected).

 In addition to displaying icons, the user may elect to have the
 directory in a text mode.  This is very similar to the display
 obtained from 'dir -e' with the type of file, if recognized, added.

 Typical DESKTOP configuration file -

 shell shell
 *
 * Devices
 *
 /h0   hard
 /d0   floppy
 /r0   ram
 /h0\GWINDOWS/DESKTOP/BUCKET   bucket
 *
 *
 * File Types
 *
 :text umacs @ <>>>%
 :binary
 :module
 :rof  rdump @ <>>>%
 :prog @ <>>>%
 :subr
 :mult
 :data
 :trap
 :sys
 :fman
 :drvr
 :desc
 :make make -f=@ ^100 <>>>%
 :script  @ >>>%
 :c umacs @ <>>>%
 :asm  umacs @ <>>>%
 :font
 :qfonts
 :gadget
 :recognizer
 :image viewimage @ <>>>%
 :window   wedit @ <>>>%

 Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO

#: 16716 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    19-Oct-92  09:58:06
Sb: #16709-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)


Sounds like Open Look 3 has file types down pat.  It would take some doing
under OSK tho.  Right now it looks at the fd_att byte to determine what kind of
file it is.  Then it checks to see if the extention matches an AIF.  So the
file is never opened.  This makes it real fast.  I'd imagine it would slow to a
crawl if DeskTop check for a module header on every file with an exec bit set,
especially if you click on the CMDS dir. ;)

OTOH, I really only need to check the file if it's double clicked on, right? At
that point I could do some checking of the file type.

Lemme play with this and I'll see what I can come up with.

 - Mike -

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16718 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    19-Oct-92  10:03:10
Sb: #16716-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

I would guess that if you can taylor the execution of a file at run time
depending upon if the module header is there, that would make it better. DO you
need to do that though?  If you just execute the file a binary and a shell
script would be the same?  Hmmm...thinking about it more, you would have to run
a shell script by forking shell first and a binary by just forking the binary
file.  You would need to know what it was I guess.

BTW: you sent something to me via Internet mail.  Looked like a lha file that
was not uuencoded.  Needless to say, I could not extract it from the CIS mail. 
Can you do it again, whatever it was?

Mark

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16733 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    22-Oct-92  22:00:46
Sb: #16718-Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)


I resent the files to ya.  You can pass 'em onto Steve also.

 - Mike -

#: 16715 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    19-Oct-92  09:57:57
Sb: #16708-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)


Ah,  I was thinking along the lines of 2 printer utilities, one for page layout
and one to do the actual printing.  My mistake.  So GPr will do both, right?

Would it be better to have 2 seperate utils?  GPr and 'print' and have DeskTop
pass the parms to print?  Would the user have to set up the page everytime?

Yeah, I have my own xmode util done.  Just have to make it graphical. :)

As I told Steve, I should build the attr thing right into desktop as I already
have the fd_att byte in memory.

Almost forgot, how can you tell the diffence between a serial or parallel port?
They look the same to xmode.

 - Mike -

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16721 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    20-Oct-92  19:40:31
Sb: #16715-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Butting in on the desktop thread... why not have a "master aif/icon" file in
each directory which lists all the relevant information about the files. If a
file is not in the "master file", then you could check headers, etc. You could
have a "create master file" program to automate things a bit.

There are 2 Replies.

#: 16734 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    22-Oct-92  22:00:55
Sb: #16721-Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 (X)


Thanks for the suggestion.  What I have been thinking about is a startup
directory filled with you usual AIFs.  That would mean you don't have to have
AIFs scattered about your disks.  Also it would keep from adding overhead every
time you encounter a new directory.  Know what I mean?

 - Mike =

#: 16735 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    22-Oct-92  22:01:01
Sb: #16721-Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 (X)


Thanks for the info.  Looks like Steve did a good job covering all the bases.

 - Mike -

#: 16719 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    19-Oct-92  16:20:38
Sb: #16642-Ultra-C
Fm: Timothy J. Martin 71541,3611
To: William F. McGill/CA 73177,3433

The chief advantage I would say that an ANSI C compiler will allow much easier
code ports from other sources, which would hopefully be ANSI compliant.  Much
of the UNIX related work would be ported over more easily.

As for as execution or size improvements, one has to try it to see I guess. We
will be upgrading to it at work, including the new required srcdbg. So here's
hoping ...

#: 16749 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    23-Oct-92  22:16:15
Sb: #16642-Ultra-C
Fm: Graham Ullrich/C.B.,CO 76506,2037
To: William F. McGill/CA 73177,3433

Bill,

The nice feature of ANSI-compliant compilers is function parameter type
checking at compile time.  That is, the compiler detects errors where you call
a function with a particular argument type, but the function is defined with a
different argument type.  For example:

int foobar( int param );

main() {
  unsigned int wrong_type;

  foobar( wrong_type );   /* this would be caught by the compiler */ }

Although you may have no difficulty remembering parameter types, new
programmers may inadvertently use the wrong type, or you may change function
names, etc.  I've found this alone helps me immensely.  Just another thing I
don't have to worry about.

Microware is claiming about 50% to 70% executable execution speed increase for
Ultra C.  Lots of function names have changed, which can be handled by macro
#defines.

Graham



#: 16722 S1/General Interest
    21-Oct-92  00:32:58
Sb: #L2 Max Mem? Sector Size?
Fm: Neil Morrison 72777,3013
To: All

 1) How hard is it to increase the max memory for OS9, L2? I know it can go
past 512K but is it hard coded to 2 Mb max, or can it be taken past this?
 2) Can the RBF system be modified to use 512 byte blocks/sectors, or is the
256 value too deeply embedded?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16723 S1/General Interest
    21-Oct-92  00:40:49
Sb: #16722-#L2 Max Mem? Sector Size?
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: Neil Morrison 72777,3013 (X)

Neil,

L-II only has space set aside for keeping track of 2MB of RAM, but y'know, it
could probably be very easily changed to go to any size by moving that table to
a larger space.  Have to look, tho.

RBF, on the other hand, would be harder to change.  So driver writers simply
have the hard disk driver (de)block 512 byte sectors into 256 byte chunks.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16727 S1/General Interest
    21-Oct-92  23:40:36
Sb: #16723-L2 Max Mem? Sector Size?
Fm: Neil Morrison 72777,3013
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

Thanks - I am under the delusion that I am going to design my own 'Coco4' -
 (I think I have lots of company - perpetual motion?) I'm thinking of a
separate 6809 system running L2 with the Coco3 plugged in to handle keyboard &
screen. Was wondering whether 2 1Mb simms or 1 4Mb was the way to go.
 BTW, I can get a PC board locally which has connectors for 2 IDE HDrives, 2
floppies, 2 serial & 1 parallel & 1 game port. Costs $21 !!! so you can guess
what I'm thinking.
 If you find out about 4Mb I'd be interested - Microware's docs imply a 2Mb
hard coded limit.

#: 16725 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    21-Oct-92  14:13:21
Sb: #Help with OSK M.L.
Fm: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754
To: all

Those of you with OSK machine code knowledge, I could sure use some of your
help.  I have been trying to create an icon to use with Gwindows. The code is
simple, if long, and I am getting an error when I try to compile it.

Here's the code:

     use  /h0/defs/oskdefs.d Edition equ 1 Typ_Lang equ (Data<<8)+Objt Attr_Rev
equ (ReEnt<<8) +0
         psect  substart_a,Typ_Lang,Attr_Rev,Edition,0,0 flags
     dc.l  %0000000000000011 busy_icon
    dc.w   %1111111111111111
 etc,etc....rest being dc.w's
   ends

I "r68 icon.a -o=icon.r" just fine with no problems. But when I "l68 -r icon.r
-o=icon"

I get the following error: code size = 1012 (0x3F4) bytes minimum of 256 bytes
requred for data area

I, unfortunately, know very little about machine code, and thusly, how to fix
this error.  I suspect it is a simple fix, but I am totally lost.

Anyone can offer any help here??

Thanks!!

jim

There are 3 Replies.

#: 16745 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    23-Oct-92  17:47:36
Sb: #16725-#Help with OSK M.L.
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754 (X)

Jim,

Hmm.  I can't reproduce the problem.  Can you email that particular source (or
something which produces the same result)?

At first I thought, aha, the linker wants some stack memory declared in the
module.  But then I saw that this was just a data module.

So it makes no sense for you to get such an error.  Weird.

kev

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16756 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  08:43:43
Sb: #16745-Help with OSK M.L.
Fm: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

Thanks, Kevin....will email you the program (it's relatively short).... maybe
you can figure out what I'd get a Data error....

jim

#: 16763 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  12:42:10
Sb: #16725-#Help with OSK M.L.
Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523
To: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754 (X)

Jim,

My guess is that either the linker won't output a "raw" binary data module,
(only a program module~r) but the manual doesn't say so, or that there's a bug
in the linker. I tested this with one of my data modules (I don't normally use
use -r, but tried it) and got the same results, so its not anything you're
doing.

        -Bill-

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16790 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    27-Oct-92  07:46:28
Sb: #16763-Help with OSK M.L.
Fm: Kevin Pease 70516,1633
To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X)

~ The message that you are getting is not an error. It is telling you haw large
the raw file is. The message about data is to inform you that the default data
space is 256 bytes. If you dont specify data space you always get 256 bytes for
your stack. you can ignore the message. your file has been linked just fine.

Kevin Pease



#: 16764 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  14:54:52
Sb: #16725-#Help with OSK M.L.
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754 (X)

Jim,

I didn't notice before that you were putting a "-r" option on the link. Why is
that?  Are G-Windows icons data modules?  If so, leave out the "-r".

Do they give a sample icon source?  It feels like there should be an entry
point (actually, pointer to data start) in the header as well:

 psect myicon,Typ_Lang,Attr_Rev,Edition,0,DataStart

and then a DataStart label just before the "flags", maybe.  (?)

kev

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16770 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  22:26:37
Sb: #16764-#Help with OSK M.L.
Fm: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

Kevin: I am following the instructions in the book.  They read: "r68 icon.a
-o=icon.r" and then "l68 -r icon.r -o=shell"

I haven't the slightest idea of why I call the -r option, as I know abosultely
nothing about machine code.  As you can tell from the source I sent you, 99% of
the program are dc.w's.....something >I< (in my primitive unknowledgable m.l.
state), can deal with.  (g)

Should I remove the -r option from l68????

Thanks!

jim

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16775 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    25-Oct-92  03:25:37
Sb: #16770-#Help with OSK M.L.
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754 (X)

Jim - I have no icons in my GW demo disk set, so I don't know if they're data
modules or just raw code.  If raw (non-PIC) code (as with -r option), it makes
no sense to wrap it in a data module.  (change "code" to "data" in that
sentence)

Yah, try without the -r option.  What can it hurt?  <grin>

There are 2 Replies.

#: 16780 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    25-Oct-92  20:16:42
Sb: #16775-Help with OSK M.L.
Fm: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

Righto, Kevin -- won't hurt a thing....will get back with you.

Thanks for the info

jim

#: 16783 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    26-Oct-92  00:00:30
Sb: #16775-#Help with OSK M.L.
Fm: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

OK, Kevin.....tried compiling without the -r option, and it worked.  Still
can't get the darn thing to work, but have left a couple of messages to Steve
Adams on Delphi and another user said he got it to work....(???)

Thanks for your help....btw.....I understand the GWindows Demo Program is
supposed to be fully featured, except that it has an auto timeout after 45 (??)
minutes, so the File Recognizers that I wrote and put in DL12 should
work....please let me know if they do....

jim

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16791 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    27-Oct-92  07:46:56
Sb: #16783-Help with OSK M.L.
Fm: Kevin Pease 70516,1633
To: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754 (X)

~ Jim read my reply to message 16763. t has information about your question.
The message that you got was not an error message.

Kevin Pease



#: 16728 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    22-Oct-92  04:14:17
Sb: #Drive Usage
Fm: Eric Crichlow 71051,3516
To: All

Hardware hackers:

    A guy down here in Phoenix who is still working on a CoCo is interested in
the possibility of using a 3 1/2' drive on his CoCo at more than 720k, and, if
its possible, what modifications to the current drivers would it take to access
the drive at 1.44 meg or any other capacity higher than 720k. This question
goes far beyond my ability to answer, so I'm turning to the forum.

    Anybody here got an answer for me to give him?

..Eric...

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16731 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    22-Oct-92  12:50:47
Sb: #16728-#Drive Usage
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Eric Crichlow 71051,3516 (X)

Eric,

The problem is not so much the drivers, but the hardware.  None of the CoCo
disk controllers that I am aware of support 1.44 meg disks.  I vaguely remember
someone coming up with a hack for one on the current controller crop, but can't
remember who or any details.  Once you get around that problem, then you need
to hack th edriver to support the higher data transfer rate for these drives.

So the problem is not impossible to overcome, just that are the rewards worth
all the effort it takes?

Mark

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16784 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    26-Oct-92  02:17:26
Sb: #16731-#Drive Usage
Fm: Eric Crichlow 71051,3516
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)

Mark,

    Thanks for the response, I'll pass it on to the guy. And actually,since he
is a hardcore hardware type, he may consider modufying the disk controller a
feasible concept, in which case I'll be back up here asking for more info on
it, we'll see.

..Eric...

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16818 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    30-Oct-92  14:45:15
Sb: #16784-Drive Usage
Fm: Lee Veal 74726,1752
To: Eric Crichlow 71051,3516 (X)

As I recall, the hack to make a CoCo disk controller work with Hi-density
drives has to be applied to some of the original style of controllers. It had,
I believe, something to do with the WD chip that was being used back then as
opposed to the one that was used in later model controllers.

Seems like I remember a file in DL 10 that talked about how to do the hack.

Lee



#: 16736 S1/General Interest
    22-Oct-92  22:01:09
Sb: #16636-#Hi Mike
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: LARRY OLSON 72227,3467 (X)


Sorry it took so long to reply.  I forgot about your note.  Best bet is to
check over on the Amiga sig's for sound data information.  It's not that hard
to figure out once your familiar with the IFF standard.

Did you get the latest CGFX.L I was giving away at the fest?  It has all the
sound Chunks defined in it.  (I'm pretty sure)

Let me know if I/we can help you out on any specifics.

 - Mike -

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16799 S1/General Interest
    28-Oct-92  00:33:38
Sb: #16736-Hi Mike
Fm: LARRY OLSON 72227,3467
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,
   I tried looking around over there browsing for IFF, but couldn't find any
file on the specifications.
   I got the new CGFX.L at the fest, didn't think to look at the header for the
sound stuff, I only looked at the new stuff added for rev. 4.  <g>
   I'll go through and check. larry

#: 16740 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    23-Oct-92  09:05:09
Sb: GWindows
Fm: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754
To: all

Anyone here usisng Gwindows?  If so, have you had any luck in getting the File
Recognizer or the Icon Examples to work properly???

jim

#: 16741 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    23-Oct-92  16:21:39
Sb: GWindows
Fm: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754
To: all

For those who might be interested in what GWindows looks like on the Tomcat70
(and, I'm sure on the System IV), I've just placed, in DL12, an ar file that
has a GIF picture of my GWindows Window, and a few of the icons that are
available in GWindows to describe files.

There's a couple of readme's, too in there.

Hope you enjoy....

jim

#: 16746 S1/General Interest
    23-Oct-92  19:53:32
Sb: #IMS
Fm: Hugo Bueno 71211,3662
To: All

I don't know.....

I sent away for info on the MM1 about 3 weeks ago. Haven't received anything
yet. IMS has little presence, I just don't see how they sell anything.

Hugo



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16757 S1/General Interest
    24-Oct-92  10:19:01
Sb: #16746-#IMS
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Hugo Bueno 71211,3662 (X)

Hugo,

Paul continues to drop by ... but it's not as frequently as I'd like to see...
or as he would like to, I'm sure.

When yous sent for information ... was it directly from IMS or through the
dealer network? In speaking with Paul last week he mentioned that he's
attempting to move alot the customer contact to the dealer net to improve
response.


*- Steve -*



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16769 S1/General Interest
    24-Oct-92  19:39:02
Sb: #16757-IMS
Fm: Hugo Bueno 71211,3662
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)

I sent for info to the Washginton office. I suppose that's IMS's main office. 
Potential customers need better attention. If dealers are the way to do it,
then do it (as Ross Perot says)

IMS appears to have a good product at a good price, but they have to realize
there'S competition out there. The Falcon030 looks mighty tasty, and so does
the Kix30 (although they cost more).

Hugo

#: 16761 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  10:45:55
Sb: #Desktop hacks
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

I just melted the ICON file.

You have _way_ toooooooooo much free time on your hands!  :-)

They look fantastic!


Just a suggestion on the pull down Shell option from within Desktop:

What about having a border around the window that's created just to set it off
from what it's overlaying. Also ... can the hot spots be enabled so these
windows can be manipulated around the screen?



*- Steve -*



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16773 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    25-Oct-92  00:22:46
Sb: #16761-Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)


Good ideas.  The option should be there for sure.

Thanks for the kudos on the Icons.  Grab any Mags with icons in 'em an you can
have a ball.  The best have been from MACazine and Windows Mag.  Nothing wrong
with borrowing a few Icons.



#: 16766 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  18:48:52
Sb: urgent!  (1 of 2)
Fm: PaulSeniura 76476,464
To: all


I found the following text file over in the Atari SIGs.  Does anyone know how I
can buy this package from a distributor in the U.S.?  I did not write this.
Please respond to me in e-mail (76476,464).  -- Thx, Paul Seniura.

***

An alternate operating system for the AtariST or MegaST for the serious home
computer user or hobbiest has just been released at an affordable price.  It is
so good that some people may choose to buy a ST for the purpose of running this
system.  Many of us have dreamed of being able to afford a UNIX machine someday
and this may be the opportunity to have some of the benefits of UNIX while
operating on a much smaller platform.

On my desk is a press release dated September 7th, 1992 from CUMANA, Ltd. Pines
Trading Estate Broad Street, Guildford, Surrey, GU3 3BH., England.
Tel:(0483)503121 Telex:859380 Fax No. 503326.  This press information reveals
slashed pricing for the personal user of OS-9/68000 upgrade version.  The new
package not only includes the professional edition of OS-9 but also contains a
word processor with mailmerge and spell-checking, a spreadsheet, a C compiler,
a basic compiler, a screen editor and an assembler with debugger and linker.  A
complete set of manuals weighing approximately 8Kg are also a part of this
package.  The home user may never use parts of the manuals, but one cannot tell
what references he/she may desire in the future so the entire set is shipped.

Allow me to paraphrase a little from my older version manual:  The author
calling OS-9 a sophisticated operating system says that it is specially
designed to make its powerful features easy to use, even by persons with
limited technical knowledge (of which I am one).  OS-9 is a multitasking and
multiuser operating system which means that many programs can be running at the
same time and if desired can be used by more than one operator at the same
time.  OS-9 is compatible with UNIX at the C language source code level.

[...more...]

#: 16767 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  18:51:57
Sb: urgent!  (2 of 3)
Fm: PaulSeniura 76476,464
To: all

[...continued...]

However, OS-9 is written in assembly language and being smaller than UNIX, it
is faster than UNIX and offers the user more performance. Now from the press
release: OS-9 is said to be the only major commercial operating system that has
built-in, easy-to-use functions to support modular programming techniques.  All
routines are independent of Atari's firmware and no Atari ROM routines are
used.

From the CUMANA brochure:  A single-sided boot disk can be supplied but one
double-sided drive will be necessary to run the package.  Both the monochrome
and the color monitors are supported.  All ports including the MIDI ports are
supported with this version of OS-9.  The Atari hard drive is supported.
Totally Atari compatible drives probably are OS-9 compatible but cannot be
individually supported. Caching is incorportated in the floppy disk driver and
multi-sector "read and write" is implemented in the hard disk driver as an
alternate to caching to ensure data integrity.

And now the GOOD stuff:  The commercial price of around $900 US will no longer
apply to the individual home computer user.  CUMANA offers their private
purchaser package at about $179.00 US plus shipping.  The shipping is rather
expensive for a five day delivery at $81.00 US; however, if 10 Atari users
group together (such as a club) then the individual shipping costs will be
reduced.  To send 10 packages, the shipment cost is about $219 air freight.

Anyone wishing to become an agent for CUMANA in the USA should contact the
Managing Director, Mr. John Simnett.  The marketing manager is Mr. Steve
Dickenson and Richenda Wood handles public relations.

[...more...]



#: 16768 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    24-Oct-92  18:52:33
Sb: urgent!  (3 of 3)
Fm: PaulSeniura 76476,464
To: all

[...continued...]

My only interest in submitting this information is one of an OS-9 hobbiest. I
have no financial connections with CUMANA or any OS-9 or Atari vendor. My
information should not be considered as binding on anyone.  Each interested
party should make their own contacts for full verification.  I regret having to
write this last paragraph, but I have been mis-understood in the past as to my
motivations.  Hoping to hear from many new Atari OS-9ers in the near future.
             PhxKen on Delphi
             Ken/Az on Fido, OS-9 ECHO
             Farrell Kenimer


***

If you know about this, please respond to 76476,464 in e-mail, please!
  -- Thx, Paul Seniura.



#: 16779 S3/Languages
    25-Oct-92  19:32:04
Sb: #A bedtime story
Fm: Carl Kreider 71076,76
To: Hackers

I have an interesting story for you C programmers.

While working on ar, I changed the table structure to use less memory (so that
more would fit in 64k) and promptly discovered that compression times had
doubled.  After a bit of sleuthing, I discovered that the simple change caused
three double shifts (mul by 8) to be replaced by a call to ccmult for a mul by
6.  Profiling the code shows that ar was spending 50% of it's time in ccmult.

The moral?   Make up your own ;-)  But at the least you should consider using
pointers instead of arrays.

Carl

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16785 S3/Languages
    26-Oct-92  09:29:33
Sb: #16779-#A bedtime story
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Carl Kreider 71076,76 (X)

Carl,

So what you are saying is that pointer arithmetic is faster than indexing into
an array?  I thought they worked the same?  In what way did you change the
structure size?

Inquiring minds want to know!  (grin)

Mark

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16828 S3/Languages
    31-Oct-92  22:01:04
Sb: #16785-A bedtime story
Fm: Carl Kreider 71076,76
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)

I changed the struct size from 4 shorts to 3 shorts, or from 8 bytes to 6
bytes.  The difference is that walking an array with pointers can be done by
addition.  ie ++p can be leau 6,u in the case above.  But using for (i = 0;
....) causes code like ldd i,s; pshs d; ldd #6; lbsr ccmult; addd p,s; tfr d,u;
then access the structure member. For random access to an array, using an index
is the only way, and array[i].elt is the same as *(array + i)->elt.  The saving
is when doing linear processing.

Oh, the problem with going from 8 bytes to 6 was that three shifts is mul by 8,
but the compiler calls multiply for 6 rather than doing ((i << 2) + (i << 1))
which is exactly the same as (i * 6).

#: 16781 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    25-Oct-92  23:11:26
Sb: #16459-Who Used OS/9-68K?
Fm: steve mann 70740,741
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

We make 68000 based microwave test equipment.  I have the Microware Who's Who
list, but you can't tell what they make from their names.

#: 16782 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    25-Oct-92  23:13:26
Sb: #16464-Who Used OS/9-68K?
Fm: steve mann 70740,741
To: Robert Heller 71450,3432 (X)

Thanks, that sounds interesting.  We make a 68000 based microwave signal source
for antenna and component testing.

#: 16793 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    27-Oct-92  10:39:11
Sb: #Snapit
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Mike Haaland, 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

Tried the version of Snapit you uploaded (or maybe you Emailed to Steve).
Anyway, can't get it to take a good picture of a window.  Tried to get a
snapshot of the Desktop screen and then view it with iffshow.  got a
"representation" of the Desktop screen but only in black and white and with
about 70% of the screen data missing.  Am I doing something wrong or is iffshow
the problem?

Mark

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16794 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    27-Oct-92  11:04:13
Sb: #16793-Snapit
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)

Well, you need to tell SnapIt the proper screen type.  I need to U/L ciff2gif
so  you can convert those snaps to GIF.  IFFShow was not very robust.

 - Mike -

#: 16807 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    29-Oct-92  07:45:50
Sb: #Desktop hacks
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

With Kev giving me the TC70's windwoing stuff, Barry Bond and I took a swipe at
seeing what Desktop would do on his TC70.

Comes up and all the features work (pop ups, pull downs, colors, sizes etc) but
...

For some reason it's not 'seeing' the proper information on files and
directories. Consequently, directories are being shown as 'paper' icons,
executables aren't, and some files are directories.

Attempting to see what 'get info' says about one of the errant icons, we saw
completly reasonable, but totally invalid data as to attr's, ownership (os9boot
was owned by user 8!) dates and sizes.

Needless to say, we didn't do anything that might have written to disk.

Any idea what's happening? Could it have anything to do with the fact that
Frank's still shipping OSK 2.3?


*- Steve -*



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16814 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    30-Oct-92  00:14:27
Sb: #16807-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)


Oh, yeah.  That's the problem alright.  2.4 uses a sector size byte on LSN 0
that when multiplied by 256 gives the sector size.  I need to add a check that
if the byte isn't set it assumes 256 byte sectors.

2.3 did not use this byte but set it to 0.  My fault.  I'll fix that.  You can
have Barry set byte $68 of LSN 0 to 1 with DED and see if it works properly.

I'll change my directory routines to check if it's set to zero too.

Thanks,

 - Mike -

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16826 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    31-Oct-92  18:19:42
Sb: #16814-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

So far as setting that byte to 1 ... just how do you go about it?

I tried to used dEd on @/r0 (wanted to test the theory on something that I
could screw up ... especially since I was planning on using the raw mode), but
I kept getting LSN0 for /dd.

Infact, even when I attempted the same thing on the floppy (@/d0) I get

What am I doing wrong?


*- Steve -*



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16827 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    31-Oct-92  19:50:29
Sb: #16826-#Desktop hacks
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)

Steve - the "@" should be after the device name:  "/r0@"

Putting it beforehand would open the current working directory device as raw.

kev

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16830 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    01-Nov-92  05:33:30
Sb: #16827-Desktop hacks
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

Geez ...

Thanks for the pointer, Kev!


*- Steve -*



#: 16811 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    29-Oct-92  09:40:41
Sb: #More Desktop Stuff
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Mike Haaland, 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

Playing with Desktop some more.  Looking better and better as I setup my file
system with the right AIFs and icons, and get all the files renamed so the
icons will show up.  Noticed a couple interesting "features".  I load a couple
fonts at startup to replace the rather anemic looking standard MM/1 font. 
These fonts are loaded into group c8, buffer 01 and 02.  From what I
understand, this is the same buffer and group as the two standard screen fonts.
Now, the font shows up in Desktop, and if I click on a text file or a C source
or something like that that calls the editor, the font is displayed there. 
But, if I click on the Shell, it pops up a shell window with the sickly looking
standard font!  Bummer!  I don't like that!  (grin).

Also, Sometimes a window that I created by clicking on something, like Shell or
Fontasee, or such, gets stuck when I exit it.  By stuck, I mean clicking the
right mouse button to cycle through the windows shows the stuck one, and there
is no way to unstick it and make it go away. This may be a windows problem,
similar to the disappearing window problem Steve and I mentioned already.

Another thing, can you make the Shell to call a settable parameter?  I really
hate the standard shell and would rather use Smersh instead.  Other users might
want to use csh or wven Microwares new Mshell.  Perhaps you can set it in the
config file.

More to come soon.

Mark

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16815 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    30-Oct-92  00:14:35
Sb: #16811-#More Desktop Stuff
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)


I'll check into you loosing your fonts.  BTW 01 is the text font 03 is the gfx
font.  It contains the window control icons + the 6 x 6 font I use for menus.

I fixed the 'stuck window' problem.  I was doing a wait during the overlay desk
menu options when it wasn't needed.  ANyway, it's fixed.

I'm way ahead of you on the 'settable shell'.  It already uses the env var
SHELL to determine what shell to fork. :)
 - Mike -

There are 3 Replies.

#: 16817 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    30-Oct-92  09:38:53
Sb: #16815-#More Desktop Stuff
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

So the version I have now looks for the environment variable 'SHELL'?  Good!
Yes, I remember about the 03 buffer being used for the special characters you
have in Desktop.  That's why I only replace the 01 and 02 fonts.  Strange that
it should only happen when it forks a shell.  Also, when I do fork a shell into
another window, a strange character appears in the lower right of the screen. 
It goes away when the screen is cleared though.  Just remembered, if I fork a
shell on the Desktop window, it uses the correct (replacement) font.

Oh, what about this.  If I'm in a directory and I make a new file there with
the editor or something, I have to move out of the dir and then come back in
before the file shows up.  Also, why have a parameter in the AIF for the border
color if dwset ignores it?  It would be nice if dwset set the border so we
arn't stuck with black all the time.  Bummer.  Lost my cursor last night
too.....no pointer, no click-right-button-to-move-through-windows, dead.  Can't
remember how it happened though.  Also, if I fork an application in a new
window, then go back to Desktop and list a file so that the overlay is open,
then go back to the application on the other window and exit it, it remains
stuck in memory the majority of the time. Steve Wegert found you have to go and
deiniz that window to get it to go away.  Speaking of that, I startup my MM/1
with only the term window active, then start Desktop in it.  When I fork an
application into another window, it starts at /w4, not /w1 as you would expect.
Why?  Another bug in windio?  Lots of things to take care of here it looks
like.

Mark

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16829 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    31-Oct-92  23:49:49
Sb: #16817-#More Desktop Stuff
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)


Hmmm.  I must have inadvertently fixed the font thing.  Cause it works
correctly here.  The Menus on desktop even use the new font.

To reread the current directory hit '.'.  That will reread '.' ;-)

The character you see when you open a window is from setting the border color
to something other than black.  Use 0 as the border and you'll be fine.  I left
the border option in in case Kev one day decides to support border on the
DWSet.

The dead window 'bug' is fixed now too.  I just had to que up the return from
wait if it wasn't the pid returned from the command.  (Clear as mud, right!)

Your last interesting little tidbit leads me to believe your having a problem
with your windows 1 thru 4.  It worksjust fine here.  Have you inized any of
your /wX descriptors?  Maybe you have the window numbers set wrong in your
descriptors or have the older /wX's that don't use wcf?

 - Mike -

There are 3 Replies.

#: 16843 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    02-Nov-92  05:41:29
Sb: #16829-#More Desktop Stuff
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

Yeah, I was inizing /w1 and /w2 in startup.  That should fix that.  I'll let
you know if it doesn't.

Need to press '.' to re-read the directory?  A little kludgy, but I guess it is
better than nothing.

When can Steve and I see the latest?  You can upload it anywhere and mark it
for Steve and it won't appear in the forums.

Mark



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16878 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-92  02:00:01
Sb: #16843-More Desktop Stuff
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)


I sent Steve a 'test' version.  It has some of the features I've been meaning
to add, minus one.  I added a default AIF directory that is read on startup
this morning.  It wil look for the env var HOME and search for a dir called
AIFS in your HOME dir, if no HOME env var is found it will search for /DD/AIFS
as the default AIF path to load aifs from on startup.

Now to add the durn program groups option....


 - Mike -

#: 16844 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    02-Nov-92  05:41:36
Sb: #16829-#More Desktop Stuff
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

Some more info.  Found out that if you have the AIF border color number set to
'2', it forks that application in a window with the "old" style font and not my
font.  Change that to a zero, and it now forks with the correct font.  Weird.

Also, did you write a different version of Fstat to show the "Get Info" data? 
If so, why not let me do a version for you that will produce some more data?  I
can get it to show the user name instead of just the numbers, and also some
nice check boxes for the attributes instead of the standard attr string.  If
you can send me the code you did for the attribute setting util, I'll make it
look like that.

More to come!

Mark



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16879 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-92  02:00:09
Sb: #16844-More Desktop Stuff
Fm: Mike Haaland 72300,1433
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)


Get the latest version from Steve.  And let me know what you think about the
Attr stuff.  (It's called Permissions in the Files menu)

 - Mike -

#: 16932 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    05-Nov-92  05:36:38
Sb: #16829-#More Desktop Stuff
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

A couple more items.  Using the latest Desktop and sometimes having a problem
with flipping between windows.  Usually only happens when I fork a shell from
the Shell icon, and then I can't use the mouse button or the F9-F10 keys to
flip around.  Only the shift F1-F8 work.   It will do this, then all of a
sudden it starts working fine again.  Weird.

I thought you said you read the AIFs now when Desktop starts up?  I have them
all in the directory /dd/aifs like you said and nothing happens. Also, is the
edit menu item supposed to fork the editor?  It doesn't.

I now you love to hear all these things, but we're just trying to help you get
a solid product out.  You didn't reply yet on the documents offer I made.  You
still thinking about it?

Mark



There are 2 Replies.

#: 16940 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    05-Nov-92  22:16:21
Sb: #16932-More Desktop Stuff
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)

 > I thought you said you read the AIFs now when Desktop starts up?  I have
them
 > all in the directory /dd/aifs like you said and nothing happens. Also, is
the
 > edit menu item supposed to fork the editor?  It doesn't.
 >

I made the same assumption after reading his message. Read it again and you'll
see that he mentions reading the AIF directory as an addition he made after
uploading this version of Desktop.

I'm betting we'll see it in the next release.


*- Steve -*



#: 16957 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    07-Nov-92  09:18:51
Sb: #16932-#More Desktop Stuff
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)

 > A couple more items.  Using the latest Desktop and sometimes having a
problem
 > with flipping between windows.  Usually only happens when I fork a shell
from
 > the Shell icon, and then I can't use the mouse button or the F9-F10 keys to
 > flip around.  Only the shift F1-F8 work.   It will do this, then all of a
 > sudden it starts working fine again.  Weird.
 >

It's interesting to note that when the mouse gets lost like this, the keyboard
mouse is still functional.

Very weird.


*- Steve -*



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16958 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    07-Nov-92  09:43:37
Sb: #16957-More Desktop Stuff
Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)

 >> the Shell icon, and then I can't use the mouse button or the F9-F10 keys to
 >> flip around.  Only the shift F1-F8 work.   It will do this, then all of a
 >> sudden it starts working fine again.  Weird.

 > It's interesting to note that when the mouse gets lost like this, the
keyboard
 > mouse is still functional.

That seems to point to the mouse driver, rather than Desktop. BTW, which
version of windio are you using? I've just nabbed version 48 off of Ocean BBS.

        -Bill-

#: 16823 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    31-Oct-92  10:17:55
Sb: #16815-More Desktop Stuff
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

Found something else....if there is a file called, let's say, 'test.txt' in the
trash and you try to delete another file with the same name, it error out with
a 218 error.  I know this is correct for OS-9, but maybe you should allow the
user to select to overwrite the file or not.

More to come.

Mark



#: 16831 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    01-Nov-92  05:43:04
Sb: #16815-More Desktop Stuff
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)

Mike,

A few more things about Desktop.  Apparently, you use the SHELL environment
variable to determine what shell to fork, but only for executing scripts.  This
is good, but I'd also like to see it used for forking an interactive shell, or
even better, two different variables, one for an interactive shell and one for
running shell scripts.  That way, I could use csh and more advanced scripts yet
still have the interactive shell I want.

Also, found out that the current version of Desktop only works with windio
version 46.  More exactly, I tried it with version 38 and 46 and it didn't work
with 38.  Didn't try it with 42 though.

We also need a menu entry for FREE.  Too much of a pain to fork a shell just to
see how much space there is on a disk.  Also, for the OPEN menu item, you could
make it really slick by opening an executable file in dEd and anything else in
the EDITOR defined by that shell variable.

How about allowing the user to set the time with Gclock?

Can you use the middle mouse to allow selection of several files at a time for
copying or deleting?

Also, when doing a copy of one or more files, why not do it like Open Look.
Select the file(s) and click on copy.  Instead of asking for a new path or
filename, put up a message for a couple seconds that says to move to the
directory desired and then select "Put" or "Paste" from another menu, maybe the
EDIT menu.  The copy the files to that directory.  If the user selects the same
directory where the file(s) is(are), then make a copy of them but give the
file(s) the same name with an extenstion of ".NEW" or ".COPY".  This will make
it easier, no need to type in anything, but still not require dragging the
icon.

More to come (I guess you are getting tired of my suggestions).

Mark



#: 16813 S15/Hot Topics
    29-Oct-92  22:50:35
Sb: KiX\30 manual
Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317
To: all

I've just uploaded to dl15 an offer to provide the "KiX\30 Technical Reference
Manual"

Frank Hogg -- FHL

#: 16820 S15/Hot Topics
    30-Oct-92  20:44:33
Sb: #16645-#New Video for KiX\30
Fm: David George 72240,134
To: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 (X)

I might be interested in the VGA type board.  I have been debating whether
or not to buy the EV-VAK.  Could we have both the EV-VAK board and the VGA
type board in the system at the same time?

Also I just received my Kix\30 board and I am having a problem booting up.
I am using a Wyse 60 terminal connected to P1.  I have tried reversing
pins 2 and 3.  I have tried with and w/o dip switch 5 set.  I don't see
anything on the terminal at all.  The floppy drives do not light.  I have
a Seagate ST157N and I am using Teac High density 5.25in and 3.5in drives.
I am using 70ns simms (1Mx9), I originally tried using 4, but I didn't
know which slots to put them in.  The manual says to stagger them, but
doesn't say where to start (I started at SIMM1).  So I put all 8 SIMMs in.
I double-checked all of my cables.
Any Suggestions.
David George
72240,134

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16877 S15/Hot Topics
    02-Nov-92  23:27:35
Sb: #16820-New Video for KiX\30
Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317
To: David George 72240,134

David,

This message responds to 16820 and 16822

As we don't have the EK-VAK or the VGA board done yet I can only give you our
intentions. Both boards should work in the system at the same time. That is the
planned intention from Hazelwood. I am a bit gun-shy about making promises on
things I don't directly control, so I'll leave it at that.

I'm glad you got you terminal problems fixed by making a new internal cable. I
forgot to ask you on the phone about where you got the internal cable you used
that didn't work? In case someone else runs into it.

On staggering the SIMMs. It doesn't matter which way you do it. There is only 2
choices. If you put them in one way and then do a 'v' from the monitor ROM it
will display a memory map showing you where your SIMMs are in the 128 Meg
space. Each '*' represents 256K by 8. It would be nice to know where to put
them to get them at the beginning of memory. OSK doesn't care but it would be
nice. I'll add that to the manual.

Sooo How do you like your KiX\30? You're the first one on CIS to have one,
(besides me) Why don't you tell the guys how building it went and how you like
it etc etc.

Frank

#: 16821 S15/Hot Topics
    30-Oct-92  20:46:25
Sb: #16668-New Video for KiX\30
Fm: David George 72240,134
To: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 (X)

I totally agree.  I think a seperate sound board is an excellent idea.

#: 16822 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    31-Oct-92  01:08:08
Sb: Kix\30
Fm: David George 72240,134
To:  70310,317 (X)

Regarding my previous problem booting up my Kix\30.  I have determined
that it is booting up.  I can access the floppy and type commands and
hear the drive moving.  I have tried two terminals and I have a breakout
box on the serial port.  I see pin 2 light when I press keys, but pin 3
does not do anything.  I have tried swapping pins 2 and 3.
Any ideas?
David George
72240,134

#: 16833 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    01-Nov-92  12:10:34
Sb: #sback
Fm: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203
To: all

If anyone has tried my sback program, I'd appreciate some feedback. I'm having
a terrible time with it (the fact that I wrote it just makes it all the more
frustrating). Here's the problem: If I use the -f flag to format the disks I
end up with the following:

 1. after the backup I can read/write to the new disk,
 2. however, I can't access the original disk anymore. Chd, etc all report
    an error. This applies to any other "normal" disk.
 3. If I reboot I can read "normal" disks again. However, the backup disk is
    now unreadable.
 4. I've not been able to do anything to enable the reading of the "backup"
    disk.

As a test, I used DED to copy LSN0 of a "backup" disk to a temp file. Then I
rebooted and did the same for the original disk... Doing a CMP on the two files
shows that LSN0 is identical on the two disks.

If I pre-format the backup disk (and don't use the -f option) all works fine.

In trying to get this to work I've modified SBACK so that no files are open
when doing the format and spent a lot of time looking for erratic pointers...
no luck.

Anyone out there have any bright (or not-so-bright) ideas????

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16882 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-92  06:06:26
Sb: #16833-#sback
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 (X)

Bob,

Make sure you are using the correct format utility.  By mistake, the OSK 2.3
format was shipped with many MM/1s.  It can mess up your disks like that.  The
correct OSK 2.4 version should have a CRC of $91371D. This should be in ROM. 
You also might want to try whatever version is in your commands directory to
see if it makes any difference.  Also, check you drivers and descriptors.  Post
the CRCs here so we can look them over.  Come to think of it, didn't you post
them once here before because of other disk problems?

Mark



There are 2 Replies.

#: 16892 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-92  07:53:17
Sb: #16882-#sback
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)

Mark,

AN ident of my format in rom nets the same CRC as yours ...but the one in the
CMDS dir is different ...tho that same edition number. That CRC is 4D1A85.

Is this the 2.3 format?

Steve

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16902 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-92  15:31:03
Sb: #16892-sback
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)

Steve,

I believe it is, but can't remember for sure now.  I know that SOME of the
early machines got the wrong format utility and it caused problems. Mine is
different as is yours.  Lovely isn't it (grin).

Mark

#: 16927 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    04-Nov-92  20:33:18
Sb: #16882-#sback
Fm: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)

Checked the crc of format; I've got the right one in the ROMs. I've got another
one, format.2.3, in my cmds dir, but I don't think it ever gets accessed. Yes,
I've had my share of weirdness with floppies. The various drivers, etc. have
been checked out and verified as "the latest". Someone suggested a cable
problem, but I made up a new one awhile ago and that's not made a difference. I
have ordered a 2nd drive (gosh, haven't those prices gone down...) and will see
if that changes anything. One other strangeness I've found is that if I os9gen
a new disk the process fails when os9gen attempts to rename "tempboot" to
"os9boot". However, if I include an iniz statement in startup, os9gen works
fine. Don't know if this is normal or not, or if it's related to the other
problem. But it does seem strange that after formatting a new disk it can be
read (but others can't) until resetting the system at which point the reverse
is true.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16944 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    06-Nov-92  05:40:57
Sb: #16927-sback
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 (X)

Bob,

Do you iniz your floppy devices at bootup?  If not, then you should.  That may
clear up your problems.

Mark



#: 16835 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    01-Nov-92  13:31:41
Sb: Desktop hacks
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: [F] Mike Haaland 72300,1433 (X)


Mike,

Now that I've figured out how to deal with raw devices, changing the value at
offset $68 does change the results Desktop displays.

However (and you knew this was coming), it still shows inaccurate data. Or,
Barry's system has been running for 157 years ... and most files are owned by
User 4.

Thoughts?

Steve


*- Steve -*



#: 16836 S7/Telecommunications
    01-Nov-92  14:12:08
Sb: #Amiga disks
Fm: John R. Wainwright 72517,676
To: Kevin Darling, 76703,4227 (X)

Hey Kevin,

I have a friend a few miles away with a small Video Production Company. He does
Weddings, Special events, TV Commercials, etc.

He recently got an Amiga for graphics editing, special effects and all the neat
stuff he puts in when he edits video tapes.

He mentioned to me yesterday that he had heard there was a lot of stuff on CIS
for Amiga graphics.  I told him I was sure there was all sorts of stuff and
suggested he get a modem and a term program and check it out.  This all sounds
real complicated to him, so I figured maybe I could grab a couple files and
show him -- now the problem -- how do I get the stuff into his Amiga?  What
sort of disk format does that critter use?  (I'm sure you must have played with
them).  I have a messydos machine with a 3.5 720k drive and an MM/1 with HD 3.5
and 5.25 drives.  Any chance I can make a disk that the Amiga can read?

Or should I just lend him a Modem and go over there and do it (grin)?

John Wainwright

There are 2 Replies.

#: 16840 S7/Telecommunications
    02-Nov-92  02:08:06
Sb: #16836-#Amiga disks
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: John R. Wainwright 72517,676 (X)

John,

I would definitely loan him a modem! :-)  Teach a man to fish... etc.

The disk format is super unusual.  But there are utilities and/or file managers
and drivers so that Amigas can read/write MSDOS disks (akin to OSK's PCF).

I think the most popular is called CrossDOS.  It's commercial, but latest
Amigas might include it.  If not, he should check with his Amiga dealer.
There's a demo version in AMIGAUSER forum, Lib 15, called CDOS40.LZH. It allows
for reading only (which is all you need).

To get it on his machine, tho, I hope he has a terminal program so that you can
send it to him! (or that he can download it).

kevin

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16860 S7/Telecommunications
    02-Nov-92  20:40:30
Sb: #16840-#Amiga disks
Fm: John R. Wainwright 72517,676
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

Thanks, Kevin

I was sorta hoping that the Commodore people might have had a sudden attack of
good sense when they built their bigger machine and used a more common format
for their disks - oh well.

My friend knows some other Amiga owners, so he should be able to mooch some
kind of public domain term program -- I told him I would lend him a modem. 
This guy is a wizard on video tech stuff. Once I get him online with that thing
he will learn fast to find what he needs.

JohnW

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16894 S7/Telecommunications
    03-Nov-92  11:40:55
Sb: #16860-#Amiga disks
Fm: T. David Nichols 76120,747
To: John R. Wainwright 72517,676 (X)

MS-DOS format is common, all right, but it wastes acres of disk.That's why
programs like Stacker can store anything in half the space without even
thinking hard.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16955 S7/Telecommunications
    06-Nov-92  23:41:56
Sb: #16894-Amiga disks
Fm: John R. Wainwright 72517,676
To: T. David Nichols 76120,747

True, messy dos wastes space, time, and memory, but when someone says "this
program will run on your home computer" he means MSDOS.  For better or worse,
it has become a standard.  Thats why I keep the old "Clone" running besiddddddddM/1.

JohnW

#: 16890 S7/Telecommunications
    03-Nov-92  07:12:19
Sb: #16836-#Amiga disks
Fm: JBM Electronics 71174,3442
To: John R. Wainwright 72517,676 (X)

There is an easily installable MS-DOS file system for the Amiga that should bofsia s it. I happen to use Cross-DOS but like
Kevin said, this costs money ($30 or so).

Find a user group or Amiga dealer that has the "Fred Fish Disks" which are a
colection of shareware/freewhare programs and get a terminal program of some
sort and then loan (rent?) him your modem to get MSH. Actually you can get both
from the FF disks.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16954 S7/Telecommunications
    06-Nov-92  23:38:04
Sb: #16890-Amiga disks
Fm: John R. Wainwright 72517,676
To: JBM Electronics 71174,3442

OK, Thanks for the info.

JohnW

#: 16837 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    01-Nov-92  22:07:47
Sb: #network stuff
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Kev 76703,4227 (X)

Kev,

Barry Bond and I have been piddling with the networks stuff Larry passed on to
me. Neat stuff!

First off all ... lemme ask (rather sheepishly) is it possible to run this over
a modem? Serial is serial ... right? By telling the modem to ignore both CD and
DTR, we were able to establish a link between the two computers. This done, I
exited the termial program on /t0 and made sure /t0 was not iniz'd.

Software installed nicely on both systems and the network appeared to be up.
Doing a ndir -a on the MM/1 shows the MM/1 active, but a -TC70. The same
command on the TC70 shows it to be active, but a -MM1.

There also seems to be a difference in each system in the way it is operating.
The TC70 appears to be 'polling' on a regular basis ( as told by watching the
modem lights). The MM1 does not.

Another difference is that issuing a command on the MM/1 nets an almost
immediate 'blip' of data being sent out the serial port, while there is no
immediate 'blip' on the TC70 in response to a command.

Something else noticed was that n6870 isn't a system state process as other
drivers. Is this significant?

Also, when taking the network down with a nmon -d, the data pointer is left at
$0000000. This makes it impossible to deiniz n0 and remove it from memory.
Trying to do so will hang the machine.

Any thoughts? Are we just out of our minds to attempt this over the phone?

*- Steve -*



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16839 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    02-Nov-92  01:17:14
Sb: #16837-#network stuff
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)

Steve,

Hmmmm.  Seems like it should work.  Of course, y'all need to set your net
descriptors to use modem baud rates instead of the default 19.2Kbaud :)

If you don't have a moded file entry, just modify the byte at offset $5D in the
descriptors.  Currently it's set to $0F (19200 baud).  You'll have to look up
in the manual and see what other baud rate values are for 1200, 2400 or
whatever.

It also sounds like Barry has echo on in his modem or something?

One way to test things is to do an "ndir -a" on one side, while the other guy
is doing a "dump </t0" with all xmode options set to zero.  The dump side
should see a "SSSD..." beginning byte set come over.  That's the serial net's
Sync and Data markers.  If you get that, then you should be able to start up
the net okay.

kevin

PS: Yeah, you can't bring it down gracefully yet.  There's several other things
that don't work too well over a serial net.  But once your NDIR shows things
hooked, you should be able to do a "dir /n0/dd" and see the other person's
disk.  A cute trick is to each iniz and clear a window (say, W7) for the other
person to send messages by.  Like:  echo "hello barry" >/n0/w7.

PPS: Error recovery ain't great.  Don't overload by doing too much at a time.
You'll simply have to reset your machines and restart if you do :-(

There are 2 Replies.

#: 16871 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    02-Nov-92  21:41:20
Sb: #16839-network stuff
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

Kev,

We hashed around the idea of our problems being related to a baud rate mismatch
.. but succeeded in talking ourselves out of it. Now, in the morning light, it
does make sense.

We're both using high speed v.32/v.42 modems and get a 12000 baud CONNECT, but
I'll bet we need to set the baud to 9600. Moded entries we gots.

Thanks for the suggestion on checking the data. We sort of had that happen at
one point during the evening. I had taken my side of the net down and fired up
sterm to make an adjustment the modem. With Barry's side 'polling' like it was,
I soon had stuff coming on the screen. Couldn't read it, but it did seem to
have a pattern and did remind me of a terminal baud rate mismatch.  More
playing is in order.

No slams were intended on the data pointer comments. We realize this stuff is
still in the testing stages. What made it interesting is the symptoms are
exactly the same as another situation Barry faces on the TC70.

With a tsmon on a serial port, (modem line), line noise will all too often hose
the port in the same fashion. Paths disappear from a procs output and the data
pointer ends up at $0000000. Any efforts to correct the situation results in a
locked machine. So this sounds driver related, jes?

<continued>


*- Steve -*



#: 16872 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    02-Nov-92  21:41:46
Sb: #16839-network stuff
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

<continued>

I've captured this note and will pass it on the Barry, if and when he gets the
TC70 back up. You see .... after all the resetting we did last night, his
machine gave up the ghost. All serial lines are responding flaky upon reboot.
No text is ever displayed (only numbers and punctuation). What ever hit the
system seems to have affected both serial chips as the on board ports as well
as his external card ports are demonstrating the same 'feature'.

Interesting to note, however, that Kwindows on the console still works as
expected.

What with all the on going problems Barry's having with Frank and his machine,
(i.e. floppies that don't work, no tape drivers, random crashes, buss trap
errors, power supply fan shot and the second promised replacement yet to arrive
over a month later,) I think we've hit the absolute bottom here.

Barry will be on the phone to either Frank working out a suitable deal for the
return of his money, or the New York State Attorney General, BBB, Postmaster,
and who ever else he can unload on.

If the MM/1 could handle more than 5 serial ports (he's using 10 right now ...
or was), he'd have one as soon as Paul could make it happen.


*- Steve -*



#: 16841 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    02-Nov-92  03:33:00
Sb: Misplaced Upload
Fm: Eric Crichlow 71051,3516
To: All


    I just uploaded a file to lib 12 that should be bound for lib 16. I'm not
sure who routes database traffic here, but I'd sure appreciate it if my little
oversight could be corrected. The filename was smate.ar.

..Thanks...
..Eric...

#: 16856 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    02-Nov-92  17:06:04
Sb: #CIS and 9600 bps
Fm: Keith H. March 70541,1413
To: All

Hello;

Does anyone have a 9600 bps modem, if so, I can not get reliable connections
with CIS, I get double or repeating lines (about 3 lines at a time) using a 3
Meg MM/1

What is your modem and /t0 setup?

Keith

There are 4 Replies.

#: 16867 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    02-Nov-92  20:57:26
Sb: #16856-CIS and 9600 bps
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Keith H. March 70541,1413 (X)

Keith,

I'm using a SupraFAX 9600 baud modem and a MM/1 and it's grand!

Your trouble is trying to use it with a port that has no modem flow control.
You might want to try using software flow control on the modem (AT&K4).

Better yet, get a /t3 or /t4 paddle board. It's the ultimate solution for high
speed connections.



*- Steve -*



#: 16868 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    02-Nov-92  20:57:33
Sb: #16856-CIS and 9600 bps
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Keith H. March 70541,1413 (X)

Ohh .... almost forgot. The default transmit and receive buffers for the serial
descriptors are way way way too small.

Investigate the utility moded to make 'em bigger. I'm using about a 2K buffer
on each side.

Give a shout if you need more info.


*- Steve -*



#: 16891 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-92  07:12:20
Sb: #16856-#CIS and 9600 bps
Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523
To: Keith H. March 70541,1413 (X)

Keith,

I use a 9600 modem on /T0 with few problems. The repeating data is a symptom of
the serial input buffer overflowing. I bet you're using Sterm, right? The
solution is to expand the input buffer size. As Steve mentioned, the only way
to do this is using moded. Make sure you have the latest moded.fields file, or
the buffer size fields won't show up. The ultimate solution is to get a /T3 or
/T4 port (the only reason I'm not using one is that IMS still hasn't sent me
the one I ordered months ago).

        -Bill-

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16893 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-92  07:56:14
Sb: #16891-#CIS and 9600 bps
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X)

Bill,

Did you have to rig up a special cable for /t0? OR are you just relying on the
increased size of the buffers.

Steve

There are 2 Replies.

#: 16897 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-92  14:30:04
Sb: #16893-CIS and 9600 bps
Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)

Steve,

That's a good question. I have a straight through 9 pin to 25 pin cable from
the MM/1 to the modem. I don't know for sure, though, whether I have the
hardware flow control bit turned on in the descriptor, I'll check it when I get
home.


        -Bill-

#: 16906 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-92  18:28:42
Sb: #16893-#CIS and 9600 bps
Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)

Steve,

I should have waited until I got home to say anything at all! <:-O

I do have some problems with straight data capture, even with the large buffer
size (I think its 2K right now). But the large buffer size did help things
tremendously. I am not using the hardware flow control option of T0, since I
thought that DTR/CD signals were more important, at least for now, and IX
handles the problem by using software flow control to keep things from getting
out of hand. I do wish that my T3 port would show up, I guess its time to
rattle their cage again. By the way, I tried looking at T0 using moded, and I
get very strange results. Something is not right, either moded.fields, or the
descriptor itself.

        -Bill-

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16923 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    04-Nov-92  17:32:30
Sb: #16906-#CIS and 9600 bps
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X)

It does sound as if your moded.fields file has a problem. I'm using the one
that was included in the upgrade disk (should be in the upgrade file here) with
a file length of 63002.



*- Steve -*



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16929 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    05-Nov-92  04:16:35
Sb: #16923-#CIS and 9600 bps
Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)

Steve,

That's the one I've got. I wonder if I picked up the wrong descriptors
somewhere. Could you mail me one of your serial port descriptors?

        -Bill-

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16935 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    05-Nov-92  08:24:24
Sb: #16929-CIS and 9600 bps
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X)

 > Steve,
 >
 > That's the one I've got. I wonder if I picked up the wrong descriptors
 > somewhere. Could you mail me one of your serial port descriptors?
 >
 >         -Bill-
 >

Nice job on the quoting.

I need to modify my scripts and then head to the office. I'll bash on the other
stuff later.

Thanks!


*- Steve -*



#: 16903 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-92  18:15:39
Sb: #16856-#CIS and 9600 bps
Fm: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203
To: Keith H. March 70541,1413 (X)

I've had nothing but problems with 9600 on this system. But I decided last week
that it was more of a modem problem than they system...so I sent the GVC modem
back; the dealer is doing an exchange for me to a Infotel. Hope that solves
some problems. However, I did get the multiple line thing too when I used v42
data correction. You might want to try MNP4 and see what happens. Also, try
fooling around with the hardware handshaking modes.

If you get this figured out, let me (and the rest of us) know.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16931 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    05-Nov-92  05:36:29
Sb: #16903-#CIS and 9600 bps
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 (X)

Bob,

The multiple line thingie is as Bill said, Sterm responding (however
incorrectly) to a buffer overrun condition.  Increasing the receive buffer in
the driver to a suitable size fixes that completely.  Also, you must use
hardware handshaking for it to be reliable.  There is no easy way around this. 
Hardware handshaking works perfectly on the t3 and t4 ports, and with some
difficulty on t0 or t2 (special cable required).

There is no problem with the MM/1 or the drivers unless you happen to have a
bad serial port.

Mark



There are 2 Replies.

#: 16943 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    06-Nov-92  04:47:43
Sb: #16931-CIS and 9600 bps
Fm: Keith H. March 70541,1413
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)

Guys;

Yes I did increase the buffers to 2048 (2k) and I have not had any more
problems. I do have &k set to 4 (&k4) on the modem.

Keith

#: 16949 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    06-Nov-92  18:41:13
Sb: #16931-CIS and 9600 bps
Fm: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)

Oh yes, the buffer size thing. I remember now. I bumped mine up to 4k each,
plus I converted my /t1 to /t3 and all works well now.

BTW, is 1k the recommended buffer size for B+ at 9600? Or would something a bit
larger be better? Does sterm reduce the size dynamically if errors start to get
out of hand (or does the protocol even support that kind of thing)?

#: 16858 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    02-Nov-92  20:35:40
Sb: #DL12 Space
Fm: Stephen Seneker 75020,3611
To: sysop (X)

I'd like to upload Version 1.01 of MPlay but there seems to be a lack of space
%-).

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16874 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    02-Nov-92  22:59:35
Sb: #16858-DL12 Space
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Stephen Seneker 75020,3611 (X)

Stephen,

Sorry for the hassle. I've tweaked a few things and you should have no problems
uploading your new version of Mplay.

If this is a new version of a previously uploaded file, please use the same
file name and let the system prompt you to over write the file. Keeps things
tidy and we don't have out dated files in teh library.

Thanks!

Steve

#: 16859 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    02-Nov-92  20:39:49
Sb: #MM/1 - Sound Utilities
Fm: Stephen Seneker 75020,3611
To:  76070,41 (X)

Mark, I've uploaded the enhanced, Shareware, utilities for recording and
playing IFF sound to/from disc.  Check out the docs!  Check out set_levelsn    
7! I'll upload a Version 1.01 of MPlay as soon as there is space!  Check it
out!

            X

I'll make you a deal on a ST296N?



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16918 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    04-Nov-92  05:36:14
Sb: #16859-#MM/1 - Sound Utilities
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Stephen Seneker 75020,3611 (X)

Steve,

Thanks!  I'll go download it and give it a try.  Also, thanks for the offer on
the disk drive.  I can get things pretty cheaply myself, so unless you are
talking SUPER cheap (like < $100), I can wait until I have more money.

Mark



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16924 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    04-Nov-92  17:47:51
Sb: #16918-#MM/1 - Sound Utilities
Fm: Stephen Seneker 75020,3611
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)

Not quit that cheap(1), but a good deal.  I might just get a good deal on a
600MB CDC DH SCSI drive at work...  If so...



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16945 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    06-Nov-92  05:41:04
Sb: #16924-#MM/1 - Sound Utilities
Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41
To: Stephen Seneker 75020,3611 (X)

Steve,

Thanks, but I think a 600MB drive is outside my budget (grin).

On the other hand, I think your latest sound stuff is really improving! I love
the set_levels utility.  I'm really looking forward to the full Soundworks
package to be released.  Do you need beta testers?

Mark



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16951 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    06-Nov-92  19:09:36
Sb: #16945-MM/1 - Sound Utilities
Fm: Stephen Seneker 75020,3611
To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X)

Mark, what I meant was... I'm getting a used 600MB drive from work %-) and I'll
make you a deal on my ST296N 80MB drive!  Half new price!

Hate to say it, but the way I'm working now I may not have time to get
SoundWorks out on time!  50-60Hrs a week can be KILLer...  I'll know next week
how things are gonna work out.  At least a preliminary release can be made with
more features added.  What do you think?

#: 16861 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    02-Nov-92  20:43:14
Sb: #SNDDRV - Want more...
Fm: Stephen Seneker 75020,3611
To:  76703,4227 (X)

Kevin, I'd like to patch the current SNDDRV to let me do 50KHz.  Any
objections, hints, where to... %-)  I most certainly can tell a difference!



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16909 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-92  20:27:25
Sb: #16861-SNDDRV - Want more...
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: Stephen Seneker 75020,3611 (X)

Stephen,  inside snddrv is a table of 4 bytes each.  The first two are the
frequency, the second two are the hardware timer data.  So try this:

 debug
 l snddrv
 msl .r7 .r7+500 78000204

That does a memory search, and should find an offset in snddrv where the first
frequency table entry is ($7800 = 30720Hz, $0204 = hardware data).

What you could do is replace that first entry (or several of the first entries)
with a higher speed:

 For        Use
 Freq    Hex  Data
 -----   -----------
 51200   c800 0106  (these have been added to a coming version)
 43886   ab6e 0107
 40960   a000 0203
 38400   9600 0108
 34133   8555 0109
 30720   7800 0204  <= current top speed in snddrv
 27927   6d17 010b

Personally, I'd try 40-43KHz first.  50KHz is overkill.  - kev

#: 16862 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    02-Nov-92  20:51:41
Sb: #KiX\30
Fm: Stephen Seneker 75020,3611
To:  70310,317 (X)

Frank, I' considering getting a KiX\30 if... there are no timely delays, and it
must be a 33MHz Monster!  When?  When I know more about video and Sound support
for this critter.  Seperate video and audio boards is fine with me. So how is
the KiX\30 Audio Board better?  Real audio port?  That is standard line level,
with filtering....  What interference from the system?

What about interference from the system? (I should really use an editor!)

If I order at the end of this month when can I expect?  (Or before)



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16876 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    02-Nov-92  23:26:46
Sb: #16862-#KiX\30
Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317
To: Stephen Seneker 75020,3611 (X)


 >Frank, I' considering getting a KiX\30 if...

 >there are no timely delays, and it must be a 33MHz Monster!  When?

At this point Hazelwood has only run at 16 and 25 Mhz. We are shipping 16Mhz
machines now and so far no problems.

 >When I know more about video and Sound support for this critter.

The EK-VAK is being laid out now. Video is the same as the TC70 but with a
palatte. The audio on this board is better than the TC70 and may be better than
the MM1. However I am not into sound and am speaking from information given to
me so don't hold me to that. Once the board is done I will get specs on the
audio that I can upload. I would suggest you wait for that.

 >Seperate video and audio boards is fine with me.

I put up a query about an audio board and only got 3 responces or so. Doesn't
seem like much demand for it. For now the sound capabilities on the EK-VAK are
all that is planned.

 >So how is the KiX\30 Audio Board better?

The KiX\30 does not have audio on the MB. This is done via a plug in board or
as part of a plug in board such as the EK-VAK.

 >Real audio port? That is standard line level, with filtering....
 >What about interference from the system?

We'll have to wait till the EK-VAK board is done before I would be able to
answer that.

 >If I order at the end of this month when can I expect?  (Or before)

Orders for the KiX\30 motherboard are taking 2 to 3 weeks with worse case of 3
to 5 weeks. The 4 port serial will start shipping within a week so it too would
be 2 to 3 weeks from order.

No other boards are in production at this time so I won't give shipping dates.
However I will guess that the EK-VAK will be shipped before Christmas.

Frank

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16907 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-92  19:18:28
Sb: #16876-#KiX\30
Fm: Stephen Seneker 75020,3611
To: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 (X)

  You wrote that the audio would be different from what I'm used to.  How so. I
really should have wrote EK-VAK...

  According to the info I have introductory prices are good till 12/31/92.
Think the 33MHz boards will be shipping by then?  How do the systems rate
performance wise?  A NCR 3445 (486 33MHz MicroChannel) runs at 27 VAX MIPS
.. I'd like to know things like this and BEST SCSI transfer using a GOOD
drive/device.  Which SCSI chip is being used?



There are 2 Replies.

#: 16908 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-92  20:26:46
Sb: #16907-KiX\30
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: Stephen Seneker 75020,3611 (X)

Hazelwood and I conferred on what the EK-VAK should have.  I asked for (and
got) separate DMA for each sound channel... allowing you to play one sound from
one stereo side while the other plays another.  I asked for (but didn't get :-)
software volume control.   There's also DMA input, of course.

#: 16912 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-92  22:32:43
Sb: #16907-KiX\30
Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317
To: Stephen Seneker 75020,3611 (X)


Kev answered your audio question. The intro prices are ONLY for the 16Mhz
version. There is no special price, nor will there be, for the higher speed
versions.

You might consider buying the Technical Reference Manual which has complete
schmatics plus a whole bunch of other stuff. It's $50 which can be applied
towards the purchase price. I put an announcment about that in dl15 (I think)

We havn't done the types of tests you refer too. I have an uneasy feeling about
 benchmarks. Far too often they seem to be rigged. However it is something we
plan to do and when we do I'll post that information. On SCSI transfer speeds I
 also feel the same way. Most available devices in the price range our
customers can afford are far slower than even the TC70 transfer speeds. From
running the KiX\30 doing HD formats, dsaves etc I notice a significant speedup,
 the sucker is fast. However 'fast' compared to 'what' is what you want to
know. I'll look into it.

Frank

#: 16895 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    03-Nov-92  11:43:01
Sb: Hidden value in FD-502
Fm: T. David Nichols 76120,747
To: all

I finally decided to move up to double-sided 5.25-in disk drives and bought a
used pair for $35 each.  When I pulled out the old FD-502, I was amazed to find
it was already double-sided, so I could have done most of what I wanted to
without spending any money.  Moral: look before you leap!

#: 16913 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    04-Nov-92  01:11:24
Sb: #C help
Fm: LARRY OLSON 72227,3467
To: all



   I wonder if someone could give me some tips on how to break up a C program
into a couple of routines that can be compiled separately then linked.
   The one big chunk of program that I would like to separate and compile
contains just screen setup and drawing functions, and the only variables that
this routine would need access too from the rest of the program, are
Window_path, and Process_ID. I have these variables now as EXTERNAL STATIC.,
   Say the program as it is now is called TEST, and I want to break it up into
TEST_1 & TEST_2. All the variables are defined in TEST_1, while the 2 variables
that TEST_2 needs are defined in TEST_1 as external.
    How do I compile TEST_2 by itself and yet let it know that the 2 variables
that it needs are defined in TEST_1.
    Then how do I compile TEST_1 and link the already compiled TEST_2 to it?

  getting deeper and deeper
   Larry Olson



There is 1 Reply.

#: 16920 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    04-Nov-92  08:32:18
Sb: #16913-#C help
Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523
To: LARRY OLSON 72227,3467 (X)

Larry,

First of all, the extern definition tells the compiler that the variable is
defined elsewhere, and references to it will be resolved by the linker. So in
your example, define the two variables as extern in the source file TEST_2.
Note that if these variables are anything but int's, you must define them as
such, even when they are int's I usually define them anyway, something like
"extern int Window_path". The same two variables must be defined in TEST_1 as
global variables, the easiest way to do this is to place them outside any
function definition, I usually put them at the top after any #include's. If the
functions within TEST_2 do not modify these variables, its better form to pass
them as function arguments, rather than using extern.

To compile TEST_1 one and TEST_2, and link them use the commands:

  cc test1.c -r=
  cc test2.c -r=
  cc test1.r test2.r -f=/dd/cmds/test

Compiling two modules by hand is easy, but if you get into more complex
situations, you will probably want to learn something about make. And if you
don't already have cc, its in LIB3 (cc.ar), it makes it all so much easier and
faster.

        -Bill-

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16942 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    06-Nov-92  00:09:51
Sb: #16920-C help
Fm: LARRY OLSON 72227,3467
To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X)

Bill,
  Thanks for the help, your suggestion about passing the variables as arguments
is a good one, I didn't even think of that, and it will work in most of the
cases.
  Thanks again
    larry

#: 16925 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    04-Nov-92  17:52:32
Sb: KWindows
Fm: Stephen Seneker 75020,3611
To:  76703,4227 (X)

  Kevin, how are the Windows docs coming?  To be more specific... I have wrote
several (little) utilites that do not require a full/large window.  I'd like to
let the user place them on the current window or elsewhere.  Codes/Call? eh?
%-)



#: 16926 S1/General Interest
    04-Nov-92  18:52:30
Sb: Hard drive
Fm: PHIL SCHERER 71211,2545
To: ALL

I was wondering if someone could help me. I have a hard drive that I dont know
how to set the settings. It's a Rodime 22MB 5.25 FH ST506/412 MFM. It has 640
cyls 4 hds and in dos it has 17 sec/trk. I dont know what to set the inittbl
number to and when I get it to take a format from hdformat, it goes through the
format sequence and then asks if I want a physical verify. I answer yes and
then it starts to show the sector list on the screen. After a while when it
gets to about 47F, it starts to pop error 241s. After this if I try to do a
dir, it gives me a 214. All help would be appreciated.

#: 16928 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    04-Nov-92  21:06:18
Sb: termcap
Fm: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203
To: all

Does anyone know what effect the 'cs' termcap capability avail on a vt100
(which I don't have) has on cursor positioning. From reading my termcap info,
it appears that you can set an area on the screen for scrolling. But it doesn't
mention how to address the area; but I assume that the x/y stuff remains as
full screen. I'm trying to set up scrolling windows

requires cursor positioning relative to the new area. Any easy solutions

#: 16950 S1/General Interest
    06-Nov-92  19:05:51
Sb: #Dmode
Fm: PHIL SCHERER 71211,2545
To: Kevin Darling Sysop (X)

Hi Kev--Do you know what the seetings in dmode mean and how to set them? I
would sure like some help!

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16952 S1/General Interest
    06-Nov-92  21:29:15
Sb: #16950-#Dmode
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: PHIL SCHERER 71211,2545 (X)

Phil -

Which machine?  On some, the dmode settings get complex.  On others, you can't
really change many.  For example, on the CoCo about the only things I dmode are
the ramdisk allocation size and sometimes the type (so that I can read ST disks
on my SC-II controller).

If you do a "dmode -?", most will show some details to help you out.

Anything in particular that you're wanting to do?

kev

There is 1 Reply.

#: 16956 S1/General Interest
    07-Nov-92  07:07:07
Sb: #16952-Dmode
Fm: PHIL SCHERER 71211,2545
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227

Hi Kev--I'm trying to get a 22meg mfm drive working. I have a 10 meg in
operation using a Disto interface. I cant figure out what the settings should
be. The sec/trk on the 22 are 17(dos) the cyls are 640. I also know that the
inittbl setting in dmode affects it but I dont know what the numbers mean.

Press <CR> !>