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Subject: Power or $$$. What's the difference?
From: pclip@mindvox.phantom.com (Paper Clip)
Message-ID: <27gVNB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 92 18:48:12 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Since forever those who have sought mass quantities of exterior
energy within the material world, set their sights on money and/power. If
you obtained one the other usually followed.
An interesting phenonmenon has occured here in America (where
greed breeds like mosquitoes in the marshes). A split is slowly ripping
in the green. Government naturally wields power. In the same manner,
business naturally yeilds money. Through power the government attains
wealth; through money business attains power. This is all quite obvious.
But in this last century a baby brother was born. TV! TV has
grown to astro-economical proprtions. And it has come to the point in
it's adolescence where it will decide which older brother is its favorite.
Government and journalism are jumping in bed together it seems.
With programs like "America's Most Wanted" and "Cops," as well as the
over-abundance of infotainment. Will this just be a drunken one night
stand to make a few, quick bucks? Or will this be the beginning of a
beautiful relationship, where the two may be joined in the matrimonial
vows of a Police-State? Is this the beginning of Big Brother?!? (panic,
panic)
Perhaps not. Perhaps the littlest bear will favor his sister,
business. MTV sure does want pubescent teens to VOTE these days. Yup,
they're jumpin' all over politcal issues and filling the minds of our
youth with thoughts of CHANGING THE WORLD (in between clips of Vanilla Ice
and Guns 'n Roses, not to mention lots of Bono, gotta have lots of Bono).
All big business is these days is advertisement. Power through
mind control as the TV blares away in the millions of "Simpson" households
across America. Hmm...
Government cracking down (serious big brother).
Business is filtering in through the cracks of every home (social-bunny
sister).
Gee, I'd have to say, Big Brother doesn't sound like a whole lot
of fun to TV.
TV decides to listen only to what Sister Business says.
Sister Business becomes Big Sister.
In conclusion, let the SS, FBI, and NSA play their last game of
shoot 'em up. All they offer is:
Good VS. Bad
blah, blah, blah
Business is full of variety. Look at how many brands of toilet
paper one can select from at the local supermarket!
Business not only has money (which at this time the Government
sorely lacks), it has the masses.
Afterall, business and advertising are kissing cousins!
Thank you for your gracious ears,
the paper clip
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Subject: Actually
From: luddite@mindvox.phantom.com (Crazed Luddite)
Message-ID: <PDHXNB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 92 20:47:24 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
It is not fair to conclude that all business is evil, because that would
not be fair. The majority of businesses in America are hard working small
and medium sized companies along with mom and pop small businesses.
There are however several corporations which are evil through their very
nature. These include:
- Defense contracters who use corrupt politicians to generate wealth from
our tax dollars.
- Monopolistic telephone companies who gouge the American consumer for a
service that, in essence, costs them very little to maintain. Telephone
companies also cooperate with the government to spy on citizens who the
government considers voices of dissent.
- Banks, who generate no useful product whatsoever. All they do is pass
money from one set of people (depositers) to another (borrowers) and skim
the difference in percentage. You would figure that it would be
impossible to lose money doing this if they lent money to responsible
individuals. But they don't, in their greed, they lend money to anyone,
especially third-world dictators favored by our government. And when the
loans are not re-paid, guess who has to bail the banks out. No, not their
stockholders, not their management, not their employees. No.. that would
actually be moral. Instead, the banks use their influence with the
government and politicians to force tax payers to bail their sorry asses
out of problems.
Paper Clip, I don't think the media is inherently evil. They are just
the mouthpiece for those who are willing to give them the most money. The
true evil entities are those behind the mouthpieces. Those who have
something to gain from people made to believe one way or the other through
advertising and propaganda.
/CL/
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Subject: Something new is happening....
From: archer@mindvox.phantom.com (Richard Newson)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 92 02:20:53 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I just got off the phone from a conference call with some people and
it looks like the goverment is gearing up to prosecute Jolnet.
If you don't remember the case, Jolnet was the system that supposedly
aided and abetted Craig Neidorf by providing him with access to the E911
documents and at the moment Sheldon Zenner, attorney for both Len Rose and
Craig Neidorf has been retained by Rich Andrews, the former operator of
Jolnet who is charged with possessing AT&T source code among other things.
It also looks like Both Rose and Neidorf might be suppeoned in the case
and forced to testify against Andrews.
This is not a rumor, what might happen in the long term is up in the air,
but it's happening right now, yesterday in fact.
)=-> Archer <-=(
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Subject: Richard Andrews
From: knight@mindvox.phantom.com (Craig Neidorf)
Message-ID: <uPc4NB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 92 00:52:17 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Richard Andrews was the sysop of Jolnet Public Access Unix in Lockport, IL.
The story is that he saw the E911 files in Rigg's (The Prophet) directory
and he then copied the files and sent copies to Charlie Boykins, the sysop
of "attctc" (whihc was once known as "killer) in Texas. Boykins sent the
files to Jerome Dalton at AT&T Security... Dalton sent them to Henry Klupfel
at Bellcore Security, and Klupfel called the United States Secret Service
on July 3, 1989 and this, among other things, led to the raid of the
Atlanta-LOD on July 22, 1989 and the raid on myself on January 18-19, 1990.
As for Archer and all this subpoena business... where do you get your
information?
:KL
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Subject: Neidorf
From: wtap@mindvox.phantom.com (Wire Tap!)
Message-ID: <NT74NB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 92 11:42:34 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
On the subject of Terminus, he had proprietary information in his custody.
He had no reason for having it whatsoever. I do believe that when caught,
it is unreasonable to "cry" and shout that the law is wrong like is the
case when hackers are caught and prosecuted. The thing I do dispute is the
punishment handed down to hackers and people who do various unlawful
things with regard to computers. Prison time for ANY computer crime short
of credit fraud, imbezzelmant, etc, is TOTALLY inappropriate. In Len
Rose's case, perhaps a fine, and community service if even that would have
done. I fear for what MOD faces if indeed the papers were right and all of
what was said was done was done in actuality.
If I were a hacker, which sometimes I must admit, I am tempted to explore
where I am not privy to be, I would be prepared to be punished if caught.
Do the crime, do the time.
But the question is how much time should be done?
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Subject: Terminus
From: knight@mindvox.phantom.com (Craig Neidorf)
Message-ID: <c794NB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 92 12:33:23 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Len Rose/Terminus was sentenced to 10 months in Federal Prison for his
possesion of the AT&T source code.
A non-violent offense for a "crime" that consisted on having some software
(not selling it or using it for financial gain mind you) earned him a stay
at a prison attached to an Air Force base in North Carolina. It wasn't
"Club Fed" and he was surrounded by drug dealers and so forth.
This hardly seemed like a case where the punishment fit the crime.
:KL
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Subject: Jolnet
From: archer@mindvox.phantom.com (Richard Newson)
Message-ID: <oDe7NB6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 92 16:20:59 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Jolnet is going again, whether or not Craig cares to admit that he was
faxed copies of this information days ago or not. The office of Sheldon
Zenner sent papers notifying Rose and Neidorf about this last week, it's
not a deep secret, it's all over IRC and Rich Andrews will admit to it
over the phone and is more then happy to talk to people about it if
they call him and express interest.
The question is what can happen now? Rose was sentenced and served his
time, from I'm told, Neidorf could get into trouble over this if he is
forced to testify, since he has never had a case brought against him that
has these issues involved.
)=-> Archer <-=(
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Subject: Archer
From: knight@mindvox.phantom.com (Craig Neidorf)
Message-ID: <HwR7NB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 92 21:13:04 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I don't know where you get your information, but it isn't coming from IRC
because I am there very often and no one has mentioned it there.
Furthermore, I had absolutely NO dealings with Richard Andrews whatsoever
and whether the government decides to call me as a witness or not has
no relevance to any charges that could be brought against me. Finally,
unless you have physically broken into the offices of my attorney or
the US attorney in Chicago, you have no knowledge of the details of
my case or whether or not additional charges could be brought as a result
of that and I'd thank you to keep your speculations and rumor mill
bullshit to yourself.
Just how do you know what was or was not faxed from Sheldon Zenner's office?
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Subject: Re: Huh?
From: terminus@mindvox.phantom.com (Len Rose)
Message-ID: <N68aoB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <Ji03NB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 06:54:34 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
rubins@mindvox.phantom.com (Charles Rubinstein) writes:
I believe that you don't know what you are talking about. I got nailed
because of alot of other things, none having to do with source code. I did
take a plea bargain where I admitted to sending a few pieces of unix code
to a few people. "In some ways justified" ... God, if you only knew.
> Len Rose got nailed for having illegal copies of source code that didn't
> belong to him in his possession, that's against the law! His punishment
> was out of line and unreasonable but in some ways justified.
>
> Rubins
>
>
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Subject: nonsense...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Message-ID: <BmBgoB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 00:57:22 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
1) Chris Goggans is not the LOD. An argument between one or two people and
Goggans does not constitute an "LOD vs. MOD rival gang war". Goggans
continues to go out of his way to contact press and fill their heads with
this nonsense, and takes great joy in slandering me. Another Goggans ploy
was harassing me in e-mail, then saving my angry responses and recently
turning them over to some media people, saying that I was being obnoxious
to him in mail, unprovoked.
2) If comsec was so great, why did Ken Shulman (the kid with the money),
LEAVE comsec, stating that his reasons had to do with Goggans "narcing"
on everyone, including friends of his? And why would he state that
Goggans was turning in people from the very beginning, was the only
purpose for starting comsec, to get in good with the feds and "hack under
their noses"? From the mouth of Shulman, whether he admits it now or not.
Comsec failed, mainly due to the fact that when Shulman left, he took his
money with him. Other reasons were credibility, impersonating real
companies to get info from established security firms is NOT the way to
go about doing business, much less make friends in the field.
3) If Goggans is such a cool guy, why did he fabricate and continue to give
people the idea that there are "rival hacker-gang wars"? About two years
ago, why did he start a rumor that he and a colleague got rich from
EFT (Electronic Fund Transfer) fraud? Is this in the best interest of
hacker ethics? Why did he lie to our friends in Atlanta and say that
"Lex Luthor" was named as an informer in sealed court documents in their
case, then later admit that it was all a gag? Is that responsible
behavior? Then, why did he start a rumor that he and other "hackers"
would retaliate against the Atlanta guys' sentencing by "destroying" telco
switches, a statement that clearly motivated feds and telco security
to take further strict action against even MORE hackers, none of them
being Goggans? Some of his clap-trap was in the Atlanta case sentencing
memorandum, played a major role in their treatment, and now he is trying
to pull the same nonsense by cluttering our case with propaganda, outright
lies, and other foolishness. A real loser.
4) If any of you "holier-than-thou" people would have bothered to READ the
indictment in our case, you would have noticed that ONLY TWO of the counts
(out of ELEVEN) are against me, and have nothing WHATSOEVER to do with
credit card fraud, and personal profit. Why are you guys, of all people,
treating this case with the same prejudgmental attitude as Craig Neidorf's
case, in which prosecutors (persecutors) passed judgment without ever
having read documents of case matter? The indictment was printed in its
ENTIRETY in the most recent CUD issue, 4.31. Perhaps you should read it.
Of the two counts against me, I pleaded NOT GUILTY. Because I'm not.
Remember that "innocent until proven guilty" saying? I think some of you
have forgotten it. Rather hypocritical behavior, don't you think?
I had no idea I'd be facing a proverbial lynch mob, facing criticism from
people who don't even know me, have no clue as to what I'm all about,
basing their opinions solely on the crooked slander they've heard from the
media or from bullshit artists. Bear in mind that most of the media
propaganda was originated by Goggans, and conveniently anonymous people
who don't even know me, since I hadn't agreed to speak with ANY media
people of any kind, and they were willing to print ANYTHING they could
get their hands on to make a story. I've never met Goggans, frankly would
never want to, and have only ever heard bad things about him from
respectable people. If you're wise, you'll distance yourself from his
brand of "hacking". I'm curious, but what ever happened in Goggans'
"bust"? The "Phoenix Project" BBS provided more info to telco security
and federal agents (mainly because they were INVITED) than any other
BBS ever before, giving them scores of info to use against hackers.
What was the result of this "raid", did Goggans strike any "deals" maybe?
5) And lastly, however I was misrepresented in that disaster of a piece on
Geraldo's show, I stated that hackers are not interested in information
on corporate computers, but rather in the machines and networks
themselves. However badly I was taken out of context, I don't notice
anyone criticizing the Dutch hackers, Emmanuel Goldstein of 2600, or Craig
Neidorf for representing himself and hackers so poorly.
People who know me personally, know that I'm one of the good guys, and have
never said nor done anything malicious. I take great risks by appearing at
conferences and meetings, defending the actions of hackers EVERYWHERE.
Taking criticism from "professionals" for speaking in favor of such
"malcontents". People they know nothing about. But at the same time taking
praise from people who agree with my views and are glad someone is speaking
out, because they sure wouldn't, for fear of getting themselves into trouble.
It's amazing what people will say about someone they know nothing about and
have never met. This message is made up of things that have been on my mind
for a while, and it is aimed at people who are and are not on this system.
Feel free to repost it elsewhere.
And by the way, I am NOT "MOD". I am Phiber Optik, Mark Abene. I speak for
myself, and for others who believe that responsible and just behavior is not
a thing of the past. I will not tolerate being stereotyped as a malicious
evil-doer who abuses knowledge.
Knowledge is power. Power to the people.
Good night.
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Subject: My previous remarks...
From: knight (Craig Neidorf)
Message-ID: <TJmHoB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 17:51:04 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I'd like you guys to go back and read my earlier remarks. I said that
harassing people and selling credit information was not hacking. I did
not say anything about MOD doing it.
Mark is absolutely right. He and the others are 100% innocent until proven
guilty in a court of law. You people should keep that in mind. Furthermore,
Mark is only charged with 2 of the 11 counts. One of those counts is the
conspiracy count which is somehwat bogus from the start. This case is a
test case for using the conspiracy count on hackers... its never been tried
before.
The other count on Mark is for violating the Computer Fraud & Abuse Act,
however, a close inspection shows that he isn't actually accused of
breaking into any computers, but rather aiding and abeting, which probably
means something like he told them about flaws in computer security or
something.
In any event, right now there are accusations as yet unproved. The
government has had years to prepare their case and a defense takes time.
There are all sorts of reasons why, the legal system is very cdomplicated
and there are all sorts of issue and confusion to be worked out and
explained.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Mazahs!
From: wtap (Wire Tap!)
Message-ID: <Lw8HoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 01:32:20 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
The whole deal with these indictments in NY sparks some very intersting
thought. On some points I do agree with Mark, but on others I do not. I
agree that Goggins does appear to have instigated much of the media
character assination that Mr. Abene now faces. It is somewhat unjust and
indeed uncalled for. I have known about the slanderings of Mr. Goggins for
some time now. The question of narcing on others seems moot at this point.
If he did, then he did. It is over. It would do everyone good to ignore
the doings of him. If mail was exchanged between Mr. Abene and Mr.
Goggins, and Mr. Goggins did save Marks somewhat sarcastic replies, then
to hell with him. Mr. Goggins did what he did, now he may be forgotten about.
As for the charges, I do agree with Mark and Craig that they are just a
governmantal ploy to make Mr. Abene appear as the sociopathic compulsive
hacker who can't stay away from a scam longer than it takes to blow his
nose. When the suits sat at the table and said "Let's clean up MOD" it
seems quite probable that Mark was first in line to be charged, being that
he has the highest profile. This case seems to be more about getting even
than it does about upholding the law. And who do you trust when the
governmant and law enforcement have what appears to have a personal
vendetta against someone?
I may sound a bit hypocritical in my rantings. But I am on the side of
Mark in this case in the context that I feel the charges against him are
exaggerated and are an attempt to suck him into a conspericy. As for the
actions of his peers (barring Mr. Stira who also appears to be in the same
position) I believe that if the charges are true, then, well the law is
the law. How it is read is what will detirmine justice.
But if then the charges are false against all of the "MOD gang" we can
only speculate as to how and why the government cooked up such a scheme.
Possibly to remove the threat of several creative and over-intelligent
teens who just might know a thing or two. Possible not. Not my place to say.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: More articles
From: knight (Craig Neidorf)
Message-ID: <BFaNoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 19:14:46 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
There is a big article on this titled, "Hacker Vs. Hacker" in the July 1992
issue of Security Insider Report. I sent a copy of this to Emmanuel
Goldstein. It's much too long for me to type, but I will quote an excerpt
or two.
"'We gave the Feds everything,' Goggans claims. "We had all of the files,
the dates, the times, the logs. We could have responded electronically, but
we decided to play by the rules. We called the authorities."'
"Goggans: 'It had gotten totally out of hand. The MoD were hurting
totally innocent people and we had to do something about it. No one else
could have.'"
I'm not sure what this is all supposed to prove, but I thought you'd be
interested in seeing it. I'm told there was an article from the Goggan's
point of view in last week's InfoWeek, but I haven't seen it.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Rich, Craig, and Len
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Message-ID: <ZueRoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 00:40:58 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Various people write:
>What goes around, comes around. I've always found this to be true.
>Basically, if you don't fuck with people, they won't fuck with you.
>Andrews deserves what he gets, and I hope he makes some really close
>friends in prison. Death to narcs.
If we really believe that what goes around comes around, then those
who find justice in abuse of law to penalize those we don't like may
eventually be on the receiving end. The issues isn't whether Rich
"narced," but whether he's being treated fairly by law enforcement.
I've seen no evidence that he is. If, and until, he is indicted, we
can't know what the charges or evidence are. But if they're derivative
of the original "Bill Cook cases," then there may be strong grounds for
claiming that he's being singled out for malicious prosecution.
>I don't know who a lot of these people are but from what I've seen Neidorf
>didn't suffer anything except a big legal bill which was paid by the EFF,
>where he landed a job he would otherwise never have been able to get.
Craig Neidorf suffered more than outta-sight legal bills. His life was
disrupted, the lives of his family were disrupted, his education was
disrupted, and he was put through half-year of terror by Bill Cook's
prosecution. The prosecution dropped its case before it even finished
presenting it. Half-year of terror and expenses that never had to happen.
I'd call that major and needless suffering. EFF *DID NOT* pay
Craig's legal expenses, and--despite one major contributor to his defense--
external contributions were slight. He still owes a considerable chunk.
I'd call that major suffering. And, if Craig had not been prosecuted,
there likely would be no EFF. He would likely have a job paying far more
with less hassles.
>Len Rose got nailed for having illegal copies of source code that didn't
Q>belong to him in his possession, that's against the law! His punishment
>was out of line and unreasonable but in some ways justified.
In a plea bargain, Len was convicted of and sentenced for unauthorized
possession of proprietary software (Unix sourcecode). Somebody will have
to explain how an "unreasonable" conviction or sentence can be
"justified." If the above poster grants the former, then it seems that
the latter is contradictory. Criminalizing possession of software as
occured in Len's case strikes me as unjust. We have ample civil remedies
and sufficient diversion programs that the taxpayers should not be
required to pay the $22,000 for 10 months incaraceration plus the costs
of subsequent supervision and the original costs of investigation and
prosecution. If you don't care about Len, then perhaps consider how
such prosecutions run up the costs that our taxes pay for.
Len was excessively punished and so were tax-payers.
A picky point--Len was sentenced to prison, not jail. A jail is generally
where those sentenced for misdemeanors (generally of a year or a year and a
day, depending on state laws) do time. They are run by counties. A prison is
a federal or state institution where those convicted of felonies and have
sentences in excess of 365 days are sent. Regardless of what you read in
the papers, there is no such thing as an "easy time" or "country club"
prison. These are terms that those wanting *more* punishment apply when they
seem something occuring that lessens hardships.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Heh, heh
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Message-ID: <5VesoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 13:39:15 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Phiber writes:
>You mean I don't get the "Jim Thomas two-snaps-up-in-a-circle"?
>(just kidding)
Hi Phiber--nah, for you, we're saving the ultra-special triple gainer
with a 1 /12 backward flip. "Lovvved it!"
It would help, though, if those judging Len, Craig, and others rather
uncharitably would think with their brains instead of their glands
before posting.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Bashing Phiber
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Message-ID: <o1csoB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 12:58:47 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
1. How pompous is it to say:
"Young man, grow up before you become a bitter old man"? Wow -- that
sounds like God talking! (if you don't like God).
2. Phiber should have more important things to do (like working on this
system and working with his attorney to defend himself) than
spending his time defending himself against bashing I've told him
to drop this and get on with his life but I gueess that no one likes
to sit and read what a rotten person that he is without responding.
I know all of the people charged; some very well, some not so well. I
can't comment on whether they have ever done anything illegal or just
plain stupid -- hopefully the courts will decide this rapidly and
fairly -- I know that I did some stupid things at their age and I
suspect that most of the folks here did too. I can comment that none
of them are rotten people as has been said here and other places
such as in Goggans' postings on the WELL immediately after the raids.
I can also comment on the dimensions of Mark's personality because I
think that I do know him well. Sure, he is opinated and came come across
as arragont; he is young, knows some things very well and, most
important, has been living uner a cloud for most of the last two years.
He is also bright, helpful, articulate and thirsts for knowledge. He
also puts himself on the line for what he feels by appearing on panels,
guest lecturing in classes and being very accessible for interviews
(before anyone jumps on this and says that this is just ego to see his
name in print on on the tuble, it should be understood that I'm talking
about such things as spending 2 hours in a class with 6 adults that he
doesn't know relating the history of the phone system or spending an hour
in front of 100 people in a computer club (some hostile; some not)
answering tough questions). I have never seen him dismiss a technical
question no matter how stupid.
I have a lot of person respect for the person who arrested Mark on the
state charges a few years ago -- Don delaney (as with Mark, we may not
always agree but there is no malice). The fact that Don, a 27-year
police office, likes Mark, appears on panels with him, drives him home
and speaks well of him impresses me. Delaney has had years of dealing
with bad folks and would certainly not drive them home or offer to pick
them up (with his wife in the car) on route to something. I prefer his
judgement to someone that only forms an opinion by what a person writes
on line. John Barlow told me once that he has had three opinions of
Phiber -- from his on-line writing; then from his telephone presence
and finally from meeting him in person -- Barlow thinks, BTW, that this
is true of everyone -- that you need to see the "body language" to
really know a person. Barlow likes Phiber.
Another person who has had lenghtly conversations with Phiber is Donn
Parker. Donn is the best know security person in the world and thinks
that "malacious hacker" is one word. He and Phiber disagree on 80% of
the issue that they discuss -- yet there is no "young man" pomposity
in Donn's tlak; there is no disrespect from Phiber to Donn or
personal invective.
In short, those who portray Mark as a one-dimensional terrible
person are wrong -- and, for those that don't take my word, they
can ask his friends, his arresting office, students that he's taught,
Emmanuel Goldstein, Donn Parker and a lot of other people of very
different backgrouds and viewpoints. At the risk of sounding as
pompous as some of the other folks, I add "You should consider that
a young man under federal indictment has a lot of pent-up pressure and
may respond in an overly defensive or arrogant manner when attacked
(although I found some of his comments extremely cogent) -- how many
of his attackers have had such pressure?"
As for Phibr -- go do something of nmore value than responding to
personal attacks! It's not worth it.
BTW, I know my typing's lousy.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Arrogance
From: emmanuel (Emmanuel Goldstein)
Message-ID: <go1soB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 21:29:51 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
There's nothing wrong with being arrogant in my opinion. Those who
disagree, get stuffed.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Jolnet Case
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Message-ID: <ccBuoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 92 14:17:47 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
The original seizure affidavit for Rich Andrews (Feb 2, '90) inlcuded
a motion to seal the search warrant (that was granted). If it appears
the case will be re-opened, we'll upload a copy of the sealed warrant
(obtained by two quick-witted journalists in Chicago, who sent us a
copy). The original warrant alleged interstate transportation of
stolen property (unauthorized Unix sourcecode) under 18 USC 2314 and
interstate transportation of computer access information under
18 USC 1030(a)(6). Barbara Golden signed the warrant, SS Agent Tim
Foley conducted the "investigation." Bellcore's Henry Kluepfel was
also involved. The original warrant raises the spectre of Legion of
Doom, and links Andrews with Len Rose and Craig Neidorf. The
essense of the document is based on the "evidence" seized from
Craig and Len and claims little more than Rich Andrews might possess
"stolen" property (unlicensed Unix sourcecode) with several hundred
thousand dollars (a figure given by Marty Flynn of AT&T Corporate
Information Security) and a modified version of login.c
There has been no indictment of Rich yet, and when there is, we'll
try to obtain a copy. Unless (or until) one comes, speculation is
dangerous. It's always possible that, while serving a warrant for one
alleged offense, agents found evidence of other, unrelated offenses.
In the Sun Devil cases, two on-the-spot arrests were made for discovery
of unlicensed weapons. In the Chicago instance, the weapons were new and
unboxed, but were confiscated and the owner arrested because possession
violated a city ordinance. So, there's at this point no solid information
about the specific basis of the rumored indictment. Bill Cook is now in
private practice, and it's possible that the new USDA in charge has simply
been trying to sort through the case.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Rebuttal
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <1P9uoB6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 02:18:47 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I find it quite amazed how far one can be and still feel his ears burn
when people are talking about him.
I'd like to address several points noted in the past several postings on
this conference.
1) No, I am not "The LOD." I am however one of the original members. If
anyone wishes to take issue with that, please talk to Lex. The conflicts
between several individuals who were in the LOD at one point in time, and
those who were members in MOD are many. A conflict between two people is
indeed an argument. A conflict between several people may escalate. When
one party says to another, "We are going to ruin you," this adds the
element of "fighting words" and is essentially a call to arms.
2) Not that my business endeavors are of any relevance to this
conversation, nor of anyone's concern outside those with financial
interests in Comsec, I feel compelled to address Mark's post regarding this.
Ken Shulman, whose mother has some 25 million, invested $10,000
into Comsec. Both myself and Robert Cupps injected more money than
this sum. This was done quite begrudgingly, as he had envisioned
obtaining working capital through less than acceptable means to the other
partners.
Ken's position was terminated only after he refused to work,
appeared at the place of business only after midnight where he
would drink alcohol and scour through the files. He experienced
incredible mood swings and would enter into fits of rage when his
refusal to cooperate was questioned. There was a large suspicion of
his involvement with drugs, and we were constantly questioned on
this topic by his mother and his grandmother.
Shortly after his termination, Ken was telephoned by Alfredo DeLeFe
and John Lee. Ken, a very disgruntled ex-employee, told DeLeFe and
Lee that he had quit because we were "narcing on everyone." This is
absurd. Kenyon was fired. Should anyone take issue with this, and
have a legitimate concern, I would refer you to our corporate
lawyer.
3) Again, addressing Mark's post, I have never fabricated any
story having to do with any "hacker-war." This is yet another example of
reporters looking to add column inches to a story.
As for the file on EFT, this file was not accredited to myself,
nor was it based on fact. Anyone with any experience regarding
banking technology would attest to this fact. It read like a
convincing piece of fiction.
As far as my "spreading rumors about Lex," again Mark has
misconstrued the facts. It was Loyd who repeated any concerns I had
at the time involving Vinny. Days prior to Vinny's visit to Rob's
house Vinny had met with John Spain, security director at BellSouth.
This was later found to be an unfortunate set of circumstances, as
Vinny had no idea that Spain et.al. were involved in any
investigations of our friends. However, at the time, it was quite
suspect to those of us who knew Frank, Adam and Rob.
As far as my threats of "destroying telco switches," I challenge
Mark to produce ANY verifiable documentation that would indicate
such. Such statements are totally out of character for me, although
should he produce such evidence, I will gladly recant.
As far as my being involved in the sentencing of the Atlanta 3,
Mark indicates that I gave testimony or otherwise provided some
evidence. This is, of course, ludicrous. Captures of messages I
left on a bulletin board known as black ice where Erik Bloodaxe
requested dialups for SBDN were included. This was without my
knowledge or consent, but this was well out of my control.
4) Again, addressing Mark, my comments to media (namely Mary Tabor and Winn
Schwartau) were solicited by the journalists. I did in no way seek out
any connections to these raids, however, when questioned I felt compelled
to speak the truth of our involvement.
As far as Mark's hearing "bad things about (me) from respectable
people," well Mark, again I challenge you to produce any of these
comments from any who know me.
In my particular raid some years back, due to a Texas Law that
requires universities to notify students of any subpoenas of their
student files, I received ample notification of any investigation.
One can imagine what two months warning can do. In relevance to
this case, perhaps Mark and his friends can tell the crowd why they
chose not to heed the warnings given then by myself, DeLaFe, Shulman
and others when told of the impending raids.
As far as the implications that I have made any "deals" with any
law enforcement entity, such an accusation is totally without
evidence and I firmly deny any such allegation. However,
circumstances do seem that I was unnaturally lucky. I suggest you
reread above about Vinny and John Spain to firmly implant in your
mind about what happens when people make assumptions.
I resent the statements made that I am behind any "media assassination"
directed at Mark. The media will report on what it see as eye-catching,
ad-selling news. If I personally wrote an article about Mark or his
friends, or if I had personally sought out any press connections I could
understand why this would be stated, however I have not.
It is unfortunate that what was once a very pleasant community where people
had respect for one another, and the only motivation present was an
eagerness to learn, has been replaced by a fragmented, paranoid and
egomaniacal environment spurred forward by primarily financial motivations.
Perhaps "MY BRAND OF HACKING" is outdated. So be it.
->ME
Chris Goggans aka
Erik Bloodaxe
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: yeah, heh...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Message-ID: <oiBVoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 03:19:11 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Who was that guy? Chris? You're not Chris.
Chris makes nasty and derogatory remarks as often as he sneezes.
That surely would have been out of character for the character he
manufactured in his previous post.
I found it amazingly ironic, if not a blatant kick-in-the-head, that the
same person who is CONTRIBUTING to the very destruction of "a very
pleasant community", is the one complaining how "unfortunate" it is.
Wow.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Rebuttal
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Message-ID: <458VoB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 15:03:50 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
The one thing that Chris did not address in his cogent response
was Mark's reference to ComSec misleading other firms by posing as
a real firm , Landmark Graphicds (the story was written about in
ComputerWorld). -- there is a typo in Graphics. Some attribute the
incident as reported in the ComputerWorld story as a major reason
for ComSec's inability to land enough corporate clients to remain
in business. Is there another side to the story -- or was the
article in ComputerWorld accurate?
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Proving youself again.
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <3F8VoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 14:48:49 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
As I said Mark, back up your statements.
If you cannot, or will not give any, even if the most basic information
to back up your base and ludicrous drivel, then you will only appear
as a bitter paranoid individual, or to use your own words,
"a strangely deluded kid." (See Security Insider Report July 1992, where
Mark calls me the above, as well as an Asshole, and a racist redneck)
I cannot believe that one who is in so much trouble would continue
to put on such a display. After I was raided, the last thing I ever
wanted to see was a computer. I made sure that my name was out of the
press (since it was front page news) and tried to get decent employment
and closer to a degree. It worked well enough for me, but perhaps
you know what is best for you.
I do feel sorry for you though. All of this could have ben avoided long ago.
If you and yours would have been more interested in furthering the common
body of knowledge in the community than in making a quick buck and looking
cool everyone would have been fine. But always remember, you were
forewarned...by a LOT of people, yet all of you persisted up until
December 5th.
In the last 11 years I have always tried to play fair and share. For the
most part so has every hacker in America. I truly enjoy and respect
this community and deeply wish that it was the way it used to be. If you
think that I am "working to destroy" this community then you must be
involved in the small faction of the community whose members abuse their
knowledge to make money at the expense of others, who destroy systems,
who steal using other people credit, who terrorize others in and out of
the community and who have lost sight of the "hacker ethic." If that
is the case then YES I do want to destroy that.
I am far from alone. If you don't believe that, you obviously weren't
present on IRC over the last 8 months. You obviously weren't in attendance
at any of the national hacker conventions over the last year. You
obviously don't frequent bulletin boards. You obviously aren't a part of
the community.
All across America people are actually glad that for once a raid was
conducted that indicated actual criminal activity rather than mere
tourist-like hacking. If you don't believe this, branch away from the safe
local haven of NYC and ask anyone. Don't take my word, or anyone else's
as gospel without checking into it.
->ME
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Landmark Graphics
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <wq9VoB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 15:16:55 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Again, people would like to misconstrue facts.
Posing as a potential customer in order to gain competitor pricing
information is hardly uncommon. I challenge you to find any business
that does not use similar tactics.
The competitor shopping engaged in by Shulman and Chasin occurred LONG
before Comsec became a legal entity. In fact, the results it yielded
from a whopping 5, yes five, consulting firms made it apparrent that
the industry would need a company like Comsec.
After Comsec was formed, Dr. Sanford Sherizen, a PhD criminologist who
touts himself as the leading authority on everything contacted Comsec.
He was one who Scott had called. He told Scott that if they were not able
to come to some kind of agreement that he would go to the press. Knowing
that what he had done was neither uncommon nor illegal, Scott ignored him.
Sanford called Michael Alexander. Knowing that he would look like a fool,
he remained anonymous.
The stories all made it appear as if we had broken into Landmark. This
was of course without any validity.
After the stories ran We spoke at length with Hardie Morgan, VP at
Landmark who assured us that there was no damage done, and we drafted him
a formal letter of apology. The hype was that "WE" did it. Had IBM, or
Deloitte & Touch done it, and mind you several unknown callers tried it
on us, it would not have gone to press.
Landmark Graphics had little if any to do with the failure of Comsec.
Press statements that said we had been arrested for breaking into Bell
South and clients who did not pay were the big reasons why Comsec failed.
I will add that I personally had never heard of a Landmark Graphics until
I read the articles. However, not being in Houston until late May 1991,
with the "shopping" occurring in January - March 1991, one wouldn't have
expected me to.
***
I would like to address Mr. McMullen:
Sir, since you are so interested in MY affairs, perhaps you will enlighten
me on some of yours. How much money have you made with regards to Mark?
How many stories have you written? How many speaking engagements? How
much hype have you generated through him?
How much do YOU have to lose if one of your number one icons is removed
from society?
We have never met, yet you seem free with telling conventioneers that "the
hacking community hates me." Perhaps you can answer me with where you
received this piece of information?
For one who so desparately wishes to further his own through exposure of
the hacking community, it would behoove you to learn more about it and its
citizens.
->ME
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Dum-dee-doo...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Message-ID: <HsNwoB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 20:41:52 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Who is this "tonyd" guy anyway? A friggin' axe murderer could put on a
3-piece suit and speak softly, and you'd be fooled. What a moron.
Goggans says one little thing, and you're drooling over how much of a
decent young man he sounds like.
Of course he wants to look good! What's he supposed to say, "I'm a
sniveling little rat"? If Goggans had a clue what he was talking about,
he'd know that I'm only being charged with TWO of the eleven ridiculous
charges, NONE of which has anything whatsoever to do with money, credit
cards, or any such nonsense. But he already knows everything, so there's
no telling him.
There must be a lot of over-turned rocks somewhere, from under which all of
these people are crawling.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Emmanuel & Phiber
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <JoRwoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 22:05:54 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Emmanuel: perhaps you are right. Perhaps Mark is innocent. Time will
tell once evidence is released. Until then I will not comment
on anything any further. I certainly don't want to further cloud
the issue.
And I certainly am well aware that about half of MOD was not in any way
involved in any of this nonsense. (I will assume that this half had
more common sense)
Mark: I know full well of the charges you face. I have never implicated
in my posts anything to the contrary. I have written generalizations
about "types of activities" since you have made it very clear to
this audience that you had no part in any of the activities I
mentioned then obviously these generalizations do not apply to you.
And as far as me wanting to "look good" I could care less of
any opinions formed of myself by you or anyone else. It is of
no concern to me whether I am perceived as a "good guy" or a
"sniveling little rat," as you so eloquently put it. I simply
feel compelled to offer my side of the story when its presence is
lacking in such a discussion. One sided accounts of this situation
tend to be rather lacking in facts.
All in all, this situation will have very little significance in
my personal life, so I could care less. However when I am
mentioned now or in the future, rest assured that I will appear to
speak my peace on the topic.
Once trials begin and transcripts of conversations and activities begin
to be released perhaps we shall all become more enlightened about
the heart of the matter. Until then, I have my viewpoint, Mark has his,
and so do a number of interested parties.
I am more than willing to agree to disagree and let a jury decide
any guilt or innocence (as will be done) and will gladly end any
commentary on the subject right now, on the agreement that my name
no longer surface in such discussions.
Sound reasonable Mark?
->ME
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Reply to Chris
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Message-ID: <6cTXoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 11:39:52 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Chris,
I don't know where you get your information but my relationship
with Mark has never generated any additional income for me. I have
written about his arrest, etc. but I write 7-15 articles per week
and, if I wasn't writing about these topics, I'd be writing about
somebody's new 67MNZ 486 -- certainly not as interesting but still
newsworthy.
As far as speaking engagements, Mark has been on a panel with me
3 times, twice at computer club meetings and once at CFP-3; none of
which pay any money to anone and all of which cost me considerably
in time and money (I think that these issues are important so I
attempt to organize panels on them on which all sides of the issues
are presented -- others on the panels have been Don Delaney (who
arrested Mark once) -- 4 times; Mike Godwin - 2x and Craig Neidorf,
John Markoff, Katie Hafner, Steve Levy, Dispater, Dorothy Denning
and others).
As to telling anyone that "everyone hates you" -- you're misinformed
I never said that and I don't know where you got that. The only thing
I ever remember saying -- and it was in private conversation, if I
rember correctly -- was during the period after the ComputerWorld
article when I said that "ComSec may be the only thing that both Donn
Parker and Phiber Optik agree on" -- and that still didn't mention
you by name (I did< bTW< call you for a comment around that time -- Loyd
gave me your number (Steve Jackson is a friend) and I left a message
with your roomate.
Finally, I have never "desparately" done anything. I have no need to
further my whatever you think it is that I am furthering. I've been
involved with computers for 30 years, have managed major street
installations, have been involved with micros since before the Apple II
and have known most of the players since they were first getting
involved with systems. I teach at various schools and have written books,
articles, etc. More importantly, I have a super family and really enjoy
what I'm doing. I happen to think that these issues are interesting and
important and I enjoy trying to understand them and inform others about
them.
I talk to everone I can on these points and if others thought that
I was trying to "make money from my icon, Mark", then folks like
Parker, Thackeray, Delaney, Dale Boll would not talk readidly to me
or serve on committess with me -- you, BTW, are the first person that has
said that I am pro anyone.
In short, you should be more temperate with your accusations --
particularly when you don't know the person. I'd be happy to hear your
side of any of these issues -- I'd don't think that I have your number
anymore but is you e-mail it to me, I'll give you a call.
John
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: SLANDER !!
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Message-ID: <yB1XoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 14:10:21 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
McMullen's huge tirade about how he DOESN'T need phiber to make himself
hip or famous or rich convinces me all the more otherwise.
If *I* were a journalist right now, with an "inside track" and history
with phiber, I'd milk it for what it was worth. Writing about new 486's
is not nearly as newsworthy, and doesn't pay as well.
(486's don't often make the front page of the NYT and hundreds of other rags.)
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Last Comment
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Message-ID: <6m5XoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 15:43:28 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
In regard to Dog Luce's comment - "Writing about new 486's
is not nearly as newsworthy, and doesn't pay as well"; in my case, it
does. I get paid the same no matter what I write about -- and have been
donating time to computer groups long before I ever heard of Phiber.
Draper was supposed to speak at the First Apple Fair that we (The Big
Apple User Group) did in 1980 (or 79) -- he never showed up; he was
writing his Forth compiler at the time. I've also never made any money
out of computer club activities; it's just giving something back for
all the money that we have made from computer.
It generally helps to know your subject and it is somewhat silly to
make remarks about "doesn't pay as well" if you don't know how people are
paid or what they do.
Last comment on this stiff.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Profiteering from "reporting?"
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Message-ID: <5gPyoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 23:13:27 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
I'm not naive enough to believe that some of the unnecessary squabbles
here can be resolved quickly, even though they could and should be.
Phiber and Chris both are talented, articulate, and generally decent
people. But they are attacking the wrong "enemy." The force of their
anger should be on those who divide, not on the victims of division.
It should also be noted that John McMullen doesn't profit from his
association with others. He is near-unanimously respected as one of
the best (if not *the* best) reporters on computer-related issues
in the country. His articles in Newsbytes are accurate, principled,
and reflect a commitment to common decency and fairness. His
reporting of the "Bill Cook" cases and Sun Devil, including his
unequivocal and highly visible opposition to the injustices of
those cases, raised the same issues he has raised in the MOD case.
I don't recall the beneficiaries of his reporting raising the
spectre of profiteering at that time, so it seems ironic that this
charge is made now by some of those same beneficiaries. One doesn't
get rich defending unpopular principles.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Actually...
From: sn (SuperNigger/DPAK)
Message-ID: <0ayyoB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 92 02:24:20 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
...only Mark is talented and generally a decent person.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Alleged 911 Tampering
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Message-ID: <kg1JsB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 19:01:07 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
This will appear on Newbytes tomorrow (Newsbytes is a copyrighted news
service and the following is posted with the express permission of the
author):
(NEWS)(GOVT)(NYC)(00001)
News Reports Of 911 Attacks 10/12/92
NEW YORK, NEW YORK, U.S.A., 1992 OCT 12(NB) -- United Press
International and the Toronto Sun have reported arrests related to alleged
"hacker" attacks on 911 systems. The law enforcement personnel quoted in
the stories were not available for comment due to the observance of
Columbus Day and the Canadian Thanksgiving, respectively.
The UPI story reports the arrest of a 23 year-old Newark, New Jersey
individual, identified only as "Maverick" for allegedly attempting to
cause havoc through the disruption of 911 service. The story also said
that arrests were expected to be forthcoming in two Maryland locations.
The Toronto story, written by Kevin Hann, described the arrest of a 15
year old high school student accused of misdirecting emergency services
crews and reporting false medical emergencies. He, according to quotes
attributed to Toronto police officials, used a home computer to route
calls through the United States back to Toronto in an attempt to confuse
security systems.
The New Jersey man arrested was said to be part of a loose network of
computer "hackers" known as the Legion of Doom (LOD) which,
according to the story, engages in telephone fraud by using corporate
Private Branch Exchanges (PBX) systems to illegally place their calls It
was alleged that the group made caused over $100,000 of charges to be
incurred by a Minnesota company within a single month.
The name Legion of Doom has been used repeatedly in recent years by
both law enforcement personnel and others in the last few years. Robert
Riggs, Adam Grant and Franklin Darden, convicted in 1990 for intrusion
in to BellSouth's computer systems were identified by law enforcement
officials as members of the Legion of Doom as was Len Rose, sentenced in
1991 for "receiving misappropriated UNIX source code."
Additionally, other persons have identified themselves as members or ex-
members of the Legion of Doom. In June 1991, Chris Coggans, Scott
Chasen and Ken Shulman, announcing the formation of ComSec, a
computer security firm, identified themselves as former LOD-ers "Erik
Bloodaxe", "Doc Holiday", and "Malefactor" (the firm has since gone out
of business). In January 1992, announcing the commercial bulletin board
system Phantom Access, the system owners, Patrick Kroupa and Bruce
Fancher, described themselves as "two former East-Coast Legion of Doom
members" ("Lord Digital" and "Dead Lord").
Fancher told Newsbytes "The Legion of Doom is not and never was an
organization with criminal intent. Any criminal activity that might have
happened was the result of inadvertent actions while exploring. I never
head of Maverick and doubt that he was a member of the group known as
the Legion of Doom. I also doubt that anyone that I knew in the group
would have considered malicious acts involving 911 systems."
(Barbara E. McMullen & John F. McMullen/19921012)
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Alleged 911 Tampering
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Message-ID: <Rk0ksB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 11:15:38 EDT
In-Reply-To: <kg1JsB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
In the above piece, there is a typo in Chris Goggans name (it is Goggans
rather than the "Coggans" shown). The typo was corrected before the story
was distributed to Newsbytes's 4.5 million universe.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: AtTenShuN ElytE Do()dZ
From: digital (Patrick K. Kroupa)
Message-ID: <LHXJuB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 14:04:08 EST
In-Reply-To: <H48euB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Ahem -
This is a little note that's aimed at 3 people in particular, who know who
they are, or certainly will by the end of this message:
When you wander out across the net, or into IRC or wherever you choose
to roam. Please bear in mind that it still is "the frontier" out there
to a great extent, and everyone you meet is not necessarily going to be
all that helpful.
For your personal edification:
Gene Spafford is not the secret head of the ElYtEzT HaQ/FreQ Gr()()p
on earth, who will open the doors to his kingdom if you send him a
lot of email that includes your home #, address, and lustful desires
for eunuchs accounts.
CERT is also not a gr()0p that will grant you l0tz 0f phree accounts
& allow you 2 j0iN them and be eLytE.
People in IRC who say type: /dcc the /etc/passwd file do0d for a c00l
trick, MIGHT POSSIBLY be mis-representing their true intent towards
you, and wish you ill.
Sending a whole bunch of DeBuG mEsSAGEZ!@#!@# at the smtp port for 20
minutes straight, and then telnetting into Vox using the same account
you just did all of that from; doesn't do the best possible job of
HiDiNG w]-[0 eWe reLLE R!
Finally; finger is turned off. No matter how many times you type it,
it won't wake up, realize that you want it to be here now, and then
start to function. You CANNOT finger into phantom.com! Duh.... gee?
Really?
SeD, GrEP & AwK! Fun For HoURZ!
:ld
)> Patrick ... [digital@phantom.com]
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: AtTenShuN ElytE Do()dZ
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Message-ID: <yZyLuB7w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <LHXJuB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 16:31:57 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
digital (Patrick K. Kroupa) writes:
> Gene Spafford is not the secret head of the ElYtEzT HaQ/FreQ Gr()()p
> on earth, who will open the doors to his kingdom if you send him a
> lot of email that includes your home #, address, and lustful desires
> for eunuchs accounts.
>
> CERT is also not a gr()0p that will grant you l0tz 0f phree accounts
> & allow you 2 j0iN them and be eLytE.
Bahahahahhahaahaha, well maybe some people deserve to be taught a lesson
about being stupid since they have corrupt motives in the first place.
> People in IRC who say type: /dcc the /etc/passwd file do0d for a c00l
> trick, MIGHT POSSIBLY be mis-representing their true intent towards
> you, and wish you ill.
Then again, who cares. Nothing "bad" works on the Vox irc client, its all
removed. You can't do a /dcc anything or fork a shell or do /exec or
anything else that gets your privs over shell.
> Sending a whole bunch of DeBuG mEsSAGEZ!@#!@# at the smtp port for 20
> minutes straight, and then telnetting into Vox using the same account
> you just did all of that from; doesn't do the best possible job of
> HiDiNG w]-[0 eWe reLLE R!
That's because mindvox has weirdly modified services that dont respond to
debug commands, scripts, or anything else. Humph! Not that I ever tried of
course, I just think that's how it is ;)
> SeD, GrEP & AwK! Fun For HoURZ!
Ain't that the truth. God bless and pass the perl
The Dead Shall Rise
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: AtTenShuN ElytE Do()dZ
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Message-ID: <5simVB15w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <LHXJuB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 10:13:27 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
digital (Patrick K. Kroupa) writes:
> Sending a whole bunch of DeBuG mEsSAGEZ!@#!@# at the smtp port for 20
> minutes straight, and then telnetting into Vox using the same account
> you just did all of that from; doesn't do the best possible job of
> HiDiNG w]-[0 eWe reLLE R!
>
> Finally; finger is turned off. No matter how many times you type it,
> it won't wake up, realize that you want it to be here now, and then
> start to function. You CANNOT finger into phantom.com! Duh.... gee?
> Really?
>
>
> SeD, GrEP & AwK! Fun For HoURZ!
Dude, you know that during Novemeber whoever did that, fucked with a lot
of sites on the net. Nyx was totally deleted and replaced with the word
"bob", Spies was cracked and the Well has these huge messages everywhere
saying "change your password right away we've been cracked"
Whoever did that fucked things up for a lot of people, Nyx is semi-private
now you have to send in postcards and ID and crazy shit like that, Rubin
just took down Spies, it is gone... The well, well who cares, but whoever
tried that, tried it on a lot of places and had success.
Did anyone ever track this asshole down? And what did he try on Vox that
failed but managed to crack all these other machines?
-tC
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: AtTenShuN ElytE Do()dZ
From: universe (Universe)
Message-ID: <BVPmVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 12:45:58 EST
In-Reply-To: <5simVB15w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Until stupid fools realize responsibility for their actions, they will
continue to drag down the morale and image of other people who are out
there to learn and to understand how things work. This is how I always
remembered it to be, but it seems like it has gotten worse in the last
couple years. Sigh.
Universe
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: AtTenShuN ElytE Do()dZ
From: ahawks (Andy Hawks)
Message-ID: <394mVB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 17:56:37 EST
In-Reply-To: <5TsmVB7w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Welp, I've been in the thickfoggyconfuzing mi[d]st of the whole Nyx
thing....I know who the guy is - by accident really....Friend who
runs my BBS now called me up one day and with an "ohbytheway"
told me it's a friend of his up at CU (Univ. of Colorado)....
can't confirm this, but the guy's user account is gone on Nyx now, and
aburt [the sysadmin of Nyx] says he's had runins with the guy before
so, I'm pretty sure of who it is....BTW, tha Nyxhacker was just
a plain buforddumbfuck....When appending to the password file, hehehe,
he did one '>' instead of 2, of course....Oh man -
Read-A-Phrack :: Learn-To-Hack!! I hate that type of fuck....
Hacking Spies, Nyx, MindVox or any other k-k001 system worth it's
net.space is just plain fucking dumb, no ifandorbuttheads.....
WakeUp and peel those plstic eyeballs....
ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture E-List: [future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu]
andy (hawkeye)(dali) new edge, technoculture, cyberpunk, virtual reality,
(freshjive) raves, etc. Home of the famous =) FutureCulture FAQ!
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: **** ATTENTION PLEASE ****
From: brendan (Brendan Kehoe)
Message-ID: <eHcNVB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <u8gJVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 20:54:25 EST
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
critic (Terry Palfrey) writes:
> I've always maintained that there is really no need to ever worry
> about the wrong parties cracking into any open encryption method.
>
> This is a small call for help for a personal project that requires a
> very special mindset. You either are or are not of that particular
> type and either will or will not be able to follow this through.
Ok hacker, doing tr 'A-Z%#$@&^*' 'a-z ' | rev
I got the below; was this an NSA party joke?
thisfileisnotforthehacking0impaired:-)
i 3wouldlikeadvice from 3 some-whohaveand(
probablystill do!thanksinadvance all
i am running a bbs that is one large game
of "hacker" from log on to to log off and i
was looking for any neat tricks stopgaps and
doors or questionaires or anecdotes or such or
other useful info or design tips.
this is also intended to be a learning forum
and introduction to the online cybervillagespace
that we find ourselves racing toward so quickly
right now the potential hacker enters with a
level of 0 and must derive system information
from supplied bulletins and accessible files tho
the file area is password protected with a
no clue password which is of course password
from there the astute hacker will advance as he figures
things out and finds the plain text clues saying things
like <name> push such and such and take a ride on the
subway at such a time a text file is displayed or a new
access level is granted that allows for other commands
to be found and used the menus and other commands allow
for access by access level, menu set, password and the
building of mini scripts for multiple actions tied to
one command or key press. re
the future planes and plans envision a fed door for the
discerning leiu types with areas like badge and geek
peek as well as secret file access <ctrl><alt><del> and
other nifty mind bogglers. i would also like to add in
a virus contruction set for higher point values - not
to really build one but to give good design prinicples
towards the construction of the end product of virii
knowbots, the future of data sourcing and manipulations
as i said before thanks in advance for any tips hints
or other advice that you may have about how to implement
these ideas in a more realistic and humourous ways
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Vox Crack?
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Message-ID: <0gNc6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <42uB6B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 12:54:20 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
erikb (Chris Goggans) writes:
> UNIX is only insecure if you are a fool.
>
> You cannot get in MY unix. netlab1.dell.com
> It simply cannot be done. And anyone from outside the
> domain who tries sets off all kinds of alarms. :)
>
> UNIX Security is not an oxymoron any more.
>
> ->ME
well now you gave us a clue, we just have to penetrate another system in
your domain, and we can then attack yours without setting off all sorts
of alarms.
<laughing <gas
oops.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: netlab crack
From: elite (Elite Entity)
Message-ID: <aw8k6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 03:56:09 EDT
In-Reply-To: <sc6H6B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
$ hostname
netlab1
$ whoami
cgoggans
$ su root
Password:
# exit
'You cannot get in my UNIX'. Ha!
EE/FFH
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: netlab crack
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Message-ID: <0XkL6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <aw8k6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 08:38:08 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
elite (Elite Entity) writes:
> $ hostname
> netlab1
> $ whoami
> cgoggans
> $ su root
> Password:
> # exit
>
> 'You cannot get in my UNIX'. Ha!
>
> EE/FFH
hehe...
Alfredo De La Fe'
(212)-721-7601 delafe@mindvox.phantom.com
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: netlab crack
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <iq6L6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 16:07:06 EDT
In-Reply-To: <0XkL6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Netlab1 is a dell unix. It does not support whoami
My usename on there is chris.
I have cshell.
How many other things WRONG could you get?
lame lame lame
->ME
./
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: netlab crack
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Message-ID: <L23m6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 04:06:32 EDT
In-Reply-To: <iq6L6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Chris, I think he was just joking...
Alfredo De La Fe'
(212)-721-7601 delafe@mindvox.phantom.com
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Vox Crack?
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Message-ID: <Z1cP6B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <42uB6B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 09:37:22 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
erikb (Chris Goggans) writes:
> UNIX is only insecure if you are a fool.
>
So what your saying is that everyone at eff, phantom, netsys, psi, netcom,
santafe.edu (secured by your former partner :) and world, is stupid.
> You cannot get in MY unix. netlab1.dell.com
> It simply cannot be done. And anyone from outside the
> domain who tries sets off all kinds of alarms. :)
>
> UNIX Security is not an oxymoron any more.
>
Whether that's the case or not, wouldn't it just prove that Dell has hired
decent Unix people to do security? Reading through intel.unix, their Unix
implementation gets good reviews and mentions that they have some top
notch people in their unix department.
What's that have to do with you personally? Don't you do MSDOS
customer support on the graveyard shift, or is everyone in IRC wrong? :)
$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: PARTYCON '93 ***presented By Control C***
From: l666 (Lucifer 666)
Message-ID: <Z30H9B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 93 21:31:22 EDT
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
What: Partycon '93
When: October 1,2,3 1993
Where: North Field Hilton, Troy,Michigan (313) 879-2100
Reservations can be made at the above #. Rooms are $65.00 a
night. (a little steep i know, but get together and split the costs. you
aren't going to want to miss this]) When u make reservations tell them
that you are with the Computer programmers convention. They have been
warned that this could get really rowdy, soooo. I have been asked by
Control C to get this out and get it out LOUD. It's going to be a great
time so I hope to see everyone there.
***sponsored by the LOD computer club(not this "new LOD" thing.
oioi
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: LODCOM Messages!
From: universe (Universe)
Message-ID: <8kky0B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 03:13:30 EDT
Organization: [MindVox] / Phantom Access Technologies / (+1 800-MindVox)
I have been reading messages from LODCOM VOLUME ONE that was recently
released. I am stunned at the quality of this undertaking. I spent like
three hours tonight reading messages from the BBS BLACK ICE PRIVATE and
I'm fucking amazed at the quality of messages. It brought back that
feeling of involvement and interest. Of course, things can never be that
way again, times change, and life moves on into other interesting areas!
If you want more info, finger lodcom or mail lodcom here on vox. The files
are really worth it.
KP+2
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: LODCOM Messages!
From: alcapone (Al Capone)
Message-ID: <yZg20B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 16:48:45 EDT
In-Reply-To: <8kky0B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [MindVox] / Phantom Access Technologies / (+1 800-MindVox)
I have to agree with Universe, the professionalism of the messagebases is
of a superior quality. Somehow it brings about an age of innocenc
Boy do I miss those times.
Al Capone
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: LODCOM Messages!
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Message-ID: <8si20B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 17:27:54 EDT
In-Reply-To: <yZg20B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [MindVox] / Phantom Access Technologies / (+1 800-MindVox)
The LODCOM project is worth every penny. They did an nice job of
accumulating, formatting, and pulling it all together.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: LODCOM Messages!
From: tgitm (TGiTM Inc.)
Message-ID: <7iJ20B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <8si20B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 17:43:29 EDT
Organization: [MindVox] / Phantom Access Technologies / (+1 800-MindVox)
cudigest (Jim Thomas) writes:
> The LODCOM project is worth every penny. They did an nice job of
> accumulating, formatting, and pulling it all together.
I say we all shed a tear in memory ofthe good ol days.
"Those that swim in the murky depths discover unknown territories and yet
dwell in bitter loneliness knowing that others will never see them."
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Good ol' days
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Message-ID: <a3320B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <J8Z20B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 00:45:21 EDT
Organization: [MindVox] / Phantom Access Technologies / (+1 800-MindVox)
cudigest (Jim Thomas) writes:
> What's scariest is that the "good ol' days" were barely yesterday.
> Kinda like the 60s counter-culture..."hair today, gone tomorrow"
>
I haven't ordered the set but just doing a finger on lodcom is funny,
seeing what all these dudes were doing years ago. Nice irony Lex, there's
a msg from patrick about stealing /etc/passwd files and running some
cracker on them dated 1985 :)
Bad bad bad naughty VoxGodz. How time changes things, 1993: "who cares, I
have 5,000 accounts and its just a bunch of files, has anyone seen my drugs?"
$$$$-=> LEX LUTHOR <=-$$$$
$ $
$$LODLODLODLO$DLODLODLOD$$
The Dead Shall Rise
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Good ol' days
From: phantom (Phantom Access)
Message-ID: <1Zo40B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <a3320B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 21:36:47 EDT
Organization: [MindVox] / Phantom Access Technologies / (+1 800-MindVox)
deadboy (The Dead) writes:
> Bad bad bad naughty VoxGodz. How time changes things, 1993: "who cares, I
> have 5,000 accounts and its just a bunch of files, has anyone seen my drugs?"
Are YOU the one who took them?
> $$$$-=> LEX LUTHOR <=-$$$$
> $ $
> $$LODLODLODLO$DLODLODLOD$$
>
HEY, only people who used to be in LOD are allowed to mock LOD without
prior written approval.
> The Dead Shall Rise
Thought provoking, whatever shall they do once risen, or is that
something obvious like start a ThRaSh Band and ROkK out.
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: LODCOM Messages!
Summary: p1r8zzzzz 0f puGEt s0Und bUFFerz/$10 a K!
From: elite (Elite Entity)
Message-ID: <HBw60B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 02:10:04 EDT
In-Reply-To: <8kky0B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [MindVox] / Phantom Access Technologies / (+1 800-MindVox)
y0, 1m s3ll!ng 'p1R8zzzz 0f pUg3t s0uN[)' buFF3rzZZz 4 $10/K!
ThatZ r1ght 4 0nly $10,000 a m3g u CAn g3t th3 alm0st c0mplete/ &
aNYth1ng 0f 1nt3rest 0r ant1-l0d (unl3$$ 1tz a r3al laYm3r & th3n
bl00da><3 ma/<3z s0me cl3ver c0m3back[BOY, I SHOWED RED
KNIGHT!!!])-deleted & de-elited t3Xt! w3 hAv3 sp3ciAl n3tw0rk saL3z, az
4 3acH w0rkStat10n tHAt cAn aCC3ss 1t 0nlY haz 2 pAy $1/K!!#!@#!@
anyh0w b4 1 mAk3 an 1n4mAt1ve -p0s+ 0n c0rDl3$$, l3t m3 g1v3 a r3j01nd3r
1n a p0st-s3nse. wh0 carEz? C0rdle$$ iz b0ring. 0h w3 r3Ally n33d3d 2
/<n0w tHAt. 0r a ph1ber 0pt1/< rej0inder, "YOU'RE WRONG". 0k
1 m1ght wr1t3 a letter/art1cle 4 th1s 4 2600 (bUt u g3t 1t 0n
\/\/\/1ndv0x 1st!$!$#!$$$$$). an`/h0w, scaNN1ng iz 3-z, aCTuaLLy, th3
upp3r 3nd 0f UHF s0met1mez p1ckz up s0me c3llular CAlLZ *ESPECIALLY* 1f u
hAve a TV u cAn 'tuNe' th3 chAnnelz 0f. buT anyh0w, th3 m0st p0pulAr
typ30f c0rdl3ss ph0n3 iz th3 AT&T 1 (1m g0nna f1nd th3 fr3qz 4 th3 otherz
1f 1 wr1te a 2600 art1cle). th3 2 w1dely uz3d m0d3lz uze th3 saMe
fr3quenc1ez, bUT th3 n3wer m0del (The 5515) hAz 7 0ver th3 3 th3 5300
m0de haz.
th3 AT&T ph0ne hAz 2 freqz, base -> handset & handset -> base.
The base -> hadset freq. is th3 0ne 'u' scan 1/ because #1 1t haz a w1der
ranG3 az 1t haz m0re v0ltage & B. b3cauz3 1t haz th3 call trAn$m1$$10nz
ech0 (1e. u h3ar 2 part1ez tal/<1ng). The handset -> base freq. is
helpful 1n A. f1nd1ng 0ut wh1ch sp3aker iz l0cal 2 'u' and II) 'h0m1ng'
in 0n th3 ph0nez l0cat10n. th1s iz becauz3 th3 handsetz rang3 iz LESS
than th3 bases, th3re4 1f u cAn p1ck up th3 ba$3z fr3q. buT n0t the
hAndsEz, 'u' kn0w 'u' r n0t that n3ar 2 th3 ep1center 0f th3 ranGe (th3
base). Th3 scann1ng (base) freq. iz 46.6-47 MHz, and th3 h0ming
(handset) freq. iz 49.6-50 MHz. h3re iz a tabl3:
Channel | Base (46.x MHz) | Handset (49.x) MHz
1 | 61 | 67 *
2 | 63 |
3 | 67 |
4 | 71 |
5 | 73 |
6 | 77 | 83 *
7 | 83 |
8 | 87 | 93 *
9 | 93 |
10 | 97 |
th3 *'z r th3 chAnn3lz that r 0n b0th AT&T m0delz, s0 chaNN3lz 1, 6 and 8
0n th3 5515 r chAnnelz 1, 2 and 3 resp3ct1vely 0n th3 5300. 4 th3 2600
art1cle 1 w1ll hAv3 aLL t3n hAnd$3t frEQz. th3 fuNNy th1ng iz 1 dunn0 1f
th1z is l3gal 0r n0t, bUt 1 d0 kn0w dr1v1ng ar0und 1n ur CAr, u (an h3Ar
a l0t 0f c0nverSat10nzzz (3v3n gyRlz tAl/<1ng Ab0ut...yaA, u gu3$$3d 1t,
$3><!@!#$@$#@$), n0t tHAt 1 d1d d0 tHAt 1f 1tz 1llegAL. 1m cAll1ng ARRL
2m0rr0w 2 aS/< whAt th3 FCC sez.
sl8tr0ZzzZ
EE/FFH-LoD-ATT-NewLOD-OldLOD-Inner CirCle-KoS-Undergr0und s0ftware
all1ance-New All1ance-Team HAckers '83-ph0neline phantomz
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: LODCOM agqain
From: universe (Universe)
Message-ID: <PmmBac2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 04:26:24 EDT
In-Reply-To: <wFw80B7w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [MindVox] / Phantom Access Technologies / (+1 800-MindVox)
Yeah, OSUNY was a long lasting system, if you count it's later versions. I
was on the later versions of OSUNY in like 87ish. It was OK, I think more
of an attraction for the historical perspective than much else. Some good
conversation on there, but a lot of fluff. And the msg bases were rather
weak in that you could read all forward, or read all backward, and not
much else. Fairly limited, considering the capacity was there for much more.
The early OSUNY messages are a lot of codes and things like that. It is
historical, but rather boring reading.
I always enjoyed the systems where there was intelligent discussion about
topics instead. That way, you could exercise your mind, your theoretical
base of operations/methods, and avoid harrassment by law enforcement
entities for having nasty things on your BBS.
Hmmm...seems like ther was something else I wanted to talk about, but
cannot recall what it was.
Later.
Looking intently for old msgs from hack/phreak BBS's. Will reward
Universe
Of The Higher Planes
LOD Communications
- - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Phone Companies
From: kai (Kai)
Message-ID: <6yDwcc4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
References: <3ZXVcc2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 93 05:36:16 EST
Organization: [MindVox] / Phantom Access Technologies / (+1 800-MindVox)
wil (Wil Wheaton) writes:
> Does the fone company rip us off? YOU bet they do.
>
> How much effort does it take to type in a command at a terminal?
5 minutes cigarette break (un-PC).
10 minutes skimming thru the manual to find how to program the extra
services you ordered.
20 minutes programming them.
1 minute testing them,and finding they dont work.
5 minutes reading manual again.
1 minute whine at supervisor
5 minutes supervisor corrects the problem
5 minutes stress break
That way you arrive at 40$ for installation (:-((
>
> It muist take alot, because the fone company charges me 3.00 to have touch
> tone (tm) service instead of pulse. Of course, that's prolly because I'm
> here in Topeka, where the locals don't know the difference between a COCOT
> and a Coke machine.
my god ! here it's only 85c. why dont you nuke it,maybe they'll be lazy
and even leave it on the line :) . Note: pulse dialling is no longer
offered in the Toronto area (for new lines), but if you bitch really hard
and bad....
> They also are charging me 6.50 for caller ID, and other services. In all, my
> fone bill comes to over 30 dollars a month, just for the $#!ing service!!
my city/state charges exorbitant taxes on phone service: about 7 $ of
the 30$ for ONE line are TAXES!! and this is an area with an average
of 2 lines per PERSON.
>
> Therefore, I have absolutely no problem 'ripping off the fone company'...
> not that I do, of course... <bleh>
>
> I'll go off about those AT&T commercials ("You will") at a later date. :)
>
*rubs hands*
Big brother is coming, and it's from AT&T. :(
Do we really want the fucking government to know WHO passes WHICH toll booth
WHEN with WHICH car and drives WHAT speed at average so that the FINE gets
automatically deducted from our debit card ?
Fuck you AT&T. hacking will have a new sense,really soon.
Will carding concert tickets at your favourite ATM be the next 'hip'
cybercrime ?
now what if you make your Indy multimediabox generate a life moving
picture of someone else and feed that into your videophone, the picture
auto-synchronizes to your speech (with facial expression) ?
Gives an entirely new idea about social engeneering :)
Patrick will disagree :)
* ME again, in the new telephony forum :) *
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Subject: From Whom the Bells Charge Toll
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Message-ID: <2VVwcc4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 93 12:03:12 EST
Organization: [MindVox] / Phantom Access Technologies / (+1 800-MindVox)
Look.
You arent little robin-hoods "stealing from the big bad rich bells
and giving to the pooor little downtrodden hackers (yourselves)
so dont even try to pull that argument off.
Any business exists only to make a profit. I think we all know this.
If we are unhappy with this, perhaps we should start a movement
to have the industry nationalized. Wouldnt that solve all
our problems? Hah, maybe for those of you who don't work
and are forced to pay taxes...
Better yet, why not just fess up and admit that you are a crook.
I can do it. I stole phone service. Ooooooohhh... Im such a bad
person. Whew. Do I feel free from that burden. Geez.
Just what do you think the telcos DO with all that profit?
Ever hear of Upkeep? How about a little R&D? Wouldnt
that be nice? Do you think they pocket it? Get real..they
spend a lot more on themselves for betterment than they possibly could
slip by their shareholders to line their pockets with.
How dumb are we?
Go buy some stock and read your annual reports. Demand
salary figures from the board. Scream and cuss, write letters.
But don't rationalize...its pathetic.
I am very happy to know that some of my money is funding
switch upgrades, line repair, directory assistce,
research into various compression and filtering algorythms,
video dialtone research,laying fiber to my house...etc.
Where do you all expect that money to come from?
(Gee, chris, we thought they might be able to pull it out
of their butts)
It still strikes me as funny to think of the big issue
of "ripping off the phone company" mentioned with
red-boxing. Gawd...makes me feel OLD! Have any of you
ever done any REAL toll fraud? Ever blueboxed? Ever
stacked up tandems until you busied out the entire overseas
series of cable? Now thats just flat out abuse. :)
(not that I've ever done something so awful, not me)
But I digress.
->ME
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Subject: Re: From Whom the Bells Charge Toll
From: maelstrm (Grant Jenkins)
Message-ID: <uZZwcc1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 93 13:31:53 EST
In-Reply-To: <Dcywcc2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Organization: [MindVox] / Phantom Access Technologies / (+1 800-MindVox)
erikb,
But what about those of us who honestly cannot afford the charges and
yet to do what we really love must make use of the service? To have a
passion for something and yet be denied it is worse than anything I could
ever punish someone with. Does that mean you must think of yourself as a
crook or criminal? I say no. Is it socially acceptable? Of course not.
But if you REALLY want to think of yourself as a crook and someone who
is genuinely BAD all I can say is that there are different classes of
people in the world and the class of phone phreaks/hackers are subdivided
into many different ones. I do not think all phreaker/hackers deserve
the title of crook that you seem to apply so generously. On the issue of
jailtime it is absurd. Alternative to jail would be continued fines,
community service, etc. I do not think jail should ever be applied to
many crimes no matter how many offenses. I believe someone mentioned
that enough stuff is public access to learn without hacking today.
*sigh* It's something some people will never get, you hack because you
have a passion for it, it is ingrained in you and no matterwhat society
says you take joy in it. Does this mean doing damage, fraud, etc.? No,
tho a lot of people seem to be involved in those activities as well. But
those of us who want freedom, get a rush from staying on the cng edge
of things, you will not discourage them. Throw them in jail, maybe. But
when you crush their spirit and they eventually conform, that is a sad
thing indeedto behold.
Just a few humble thoughts on the matter.
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