textfiles/apple/ADC/adv.900904

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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, September 4, 1990  10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
Topic:   Operating Systems
Forum Leader:  Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)


AFA Gary J Ok.  Let's get started here.
AFA Gary J Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum.  Tonight's topic is
           Operating
AFA Gary J Systems.  I'm Gary Jacobson, the Forum Assistant.  Dave Sugar
           will be here
AFA Gary J in a moment.  Let's use forum PROTOCOL!!!! starting NOW!!
AFA Gary J So if you have a question, type a "?" on a line by itself.
AFA Gary J Or, if you have a comment on the curren topic, type a "!" on a
           line by itself.
AFA Gary J Does anyone have a question they'd like to start out with this
           evening?
Matt DTS   [Lots of new faces here tonight!  GA]
AFA Gary J Yes, Joyce!  GA
AFL JoyceM I understand that the new Prodos-8 (1.9) cannot be used with
           ProSel-16 and
AFL JoyceM GSOS 5.02, is that correct?
AFA Gary J It's true of 5.02, but not sure about ProSel.
AFA Gary J GA, Jeffrey
JeffreyH11 I'll wait for Matt.  GA
AFL JoyceM I was mistaken in stating Prosel <grin>, just 5.02 :)
AFL JoyceM Done
Matt DTS   Yes, it's true.  Hidden Secret:  You don't really care.
Matt DTS   Why not?  Because the only changes between 1.8 and 1.9 affect
           booting P8 directly or quitting from it
Matt DTS   where GS/OS is not involved.  Since GS/OS takes care of both these
           things for you, none of the changes
Matt DTS   have any affect on GS/OS users of P8.  GA.
AFL JoyceM Thanks, Matt.
JeffreyH11 As far as I have read, GS/OS check version numbers of files like
           P8, and will
JeffreyH11 refuse to use any that don't have the right version number.
JeffreyH11 GA
AFA Gary J Ok, Sexteen GS has the next question.  GA
Sexteen GS Two questions.  If GSOS 3.03 is only to be SCSI DMA compatible,
Sexteen GS then why does it help w/ the unclaimed interrupts?
AFA Gary J GA Matt
Sexteen GS Also, what exactly is the cause of that problem,
Sexteen GS and how can it be fixed?
Matt DTS   GS/OS 3.3 hasn't been released.  The version with the DMA SCSI
           card is 3.2 (or 3.02, depending on how
Matt DTS   you print the value returned by GetVersion, which is $0302).
Matt DTS   It helps with the unclaimed interrupts (3.2, that is) because it
           no longer treats greater than 64K
Matt DTS   unclaimed interrupts as a fatal error.  It gives you the same
           warning, but pressing <CR> gets you to
Matt DTS   right where you left off.  For more details, see GS/OS TN #9 (or
           #10, somewhere around there).  GA.
AFA Gary J Anything else, Sexteen?
Sexteen GS No, thanks.
AFA Gary J Ok.  GA Scott.
Ez Scott B The old ProDOS 8 locates itself auto. at $9A00....
Ez Scott B I need to know the locations in the bank for game design
           purposes....
Ez Scott B Where does the new one locate on an Apple IIe?
Ez Scott B GA.
AFA Gary J GA Jeffrey
JeffreyH11 Actually, BASIC.SYSTEM loads at $9A00 (or near there),  the ProDOS
           MLI moves
JeffreyH11 itself to underneath ROM, and occupies only page $BF and some ZP
           and Page 3
JeffreyH11 locations.  If you're not using BASIC.SYSTEM, most of main memory
           is yours. GA
AFA Gary J Ok.  Looks like Joyce has the next question.  GA Joyce.
AFL JoyceM Is there a patch for PD 1.9 for the No Slot Clock, or should I ask
           in Hardware?
AFA Gary J Joyce.  There's one in our library right now that someone has
           uploaded,
AFA Gary J and I have yet to release it.  (I just downloaded it before the
           chat).
AFA Gary J As soon as I check it out, It'll be released.
AFA Gary J GA, Matt
AFL JoyceM Okay, Gary....anxiously awaiting :)  Done
Matt DTS   (This is where I perpetually point out that if people would make
           these .SYSTEM files instead of
Matt DTS   patching hard addresses, you wouldn't need to change them every
           time P8 changed.  I know people
Matt DTS   still stuck using P8 1.4 because they can't get more recent
           versions of their patches.)  GA.
AFA Gary J GA Jeffrey
JeffreyH11 It would be nice if P8 had something corresponding to INITs, but I
           don't think
JeffreyH11 there is enough memory left over to implement it. GA
AFA Gary J Trouble with that is that there's no consistant place for it to
           reside in
AFA Gary J memory.
AFA Gary J GA Matt.
Matt DTS   There's no reason someone can't write a .SYSTEM program that looks
           in an INITs folder and executes them all
Matt DTS   according to a pre-arranged setup.  In fact, Dave Lyons' P8CDA
Matt DTS   program does this for IIgs inits under ProDOS 8.  No reason why
           there can't be a strictly 8-bit analog
Matt DTS   as well.
Matt DTS   GA
AFA Gary J Thanks Matt.
AFA Gary J Ok.  A2GS has the next question.  GA A2
A2GS       This is off the topic, I hope no one will mind....
A2GS       I'm looking for a FAST 16-bit multiply routine...something
           producing a 32-bit
A2GS       result faster then the current routine I have, which produces a
           result within
A2GS       the range of 420-520 cycles....any suggestions?  GA
Mac Hater  have a 4194304k lookup table.
AFL Dyfet  I take it, A2, that you are using the shift
AFL Dyfet  and add method?
A2GS       A derivative of it
A2GS       Sorry Mac...that just won't do...
A2GS       at least not until Apple starts shipping machine with 4 gigs of
           memory and we
A2GS       get a processor which can address that much  :)
Dave Lyons (It'd be 16 megs anyway, not 4....)
Dave Lyons (Oh, never mind.  I'm wrong.)
A2GS       whatever... dave :)
AFL Dyfet  A2, all we need is a hw multiply instruction :)
A2GS       Fine by me....
A2GS       anyone spoken to Sculley lately?
AFA Gary J What, about hw multiply? :)
Matt DTS   Like Sculley knows about hardware multiplication
           implementations.
JeffreyH11 :)
AFL JoyceM :)
A2GS       Nope...but he can authorize the implementation of a 68882 in every
           machine...I
A2GS       guess.
Psycosis   Nope, no one's spoken to him... he's been locked in his office
           with his
Psycosis   Turbo Genesis since July ;)
AFA Gary J Ok.  Let's move on to HaveGSPLUS's question.  GA HaveGSPLUS
HaveGSPLUS I'm having a problem with the LaserWriter print driver.  I do not
           have a
HaveGSPLUS LaserWriter, but my mother has one at work, so I wanted to print
           the document
HaveGSPLUS to a file.  I placed the files "LaserWriter", "LW.PSetup" (or
           something like
HaveGSPLUS that), and "IWEM" in the drivers directory, but the DirectConnect
           CDev won't
HaveGSPLUS show the LaserWriter driver.
AFA Gary J GA, Matt
HaveGSPLUS Anybody know what's wrong?
Matt DTS   1) USE THE INSTALLER!  Don't go "placing" files places.  For
           example, you won't need LW.PSetup.  See
Matt DTS   GS/OS TN #1 for details on LW.PSetup.
Matt DTS   2)  DirectConnect ignores a printer driver named "LaserWriter"
           because we (Apple) don't guarantee that
Matt DTS   it will work directly connected (read: it probably will but we
           didn't test it).  Rename the printer
Matt DTS   driver and DirectConnect will find it.
HaveGSPLUS Well...I looked at the installer script, but it seems to install a
           bunch of
HaveGSPLUS files which begin with "AT" so I assumed it was for AppleTalk LW
           installation?
Matt DTS   It installs AppleTalk protocols you'd need to connect to a
           LaserWriter.  You can also use the
Matt DTS   Installer when you're done to "remove" the files and reinstall the
           printer you normally print to.
Matt DTS   GA.
HaveGSPLUS I'm not too familiar with AppleTalk, but do I need any additional
           cables,
HaveGSPLUS because I don't even have the printer, I wanted to use the OA-F
           function I
HaveGSPLUS saw someone write about.
Matt DTS   You don't need additional cables to not have AppleTalk.  :)  GA.
HaveGSPLUS So just installing the files will work?
Matt DTS   (you also have to rename the printer driver.  See above text.)
Psycosis   Ok! I've been having these problems with some files in a
           particular folder:
Psycosis   when I try to move or, in particular, delete them, I get a message
           saying,
Psycosis   "Can't complete this system operation: System error 8051"
Psycosis   Also, what happens when sometimes I try to throw these stinky
           files out in
Psycosis   the trash, my screen turns a billion colors and I need to
           reboot.
AFA Gary J GA, Matt.
Matt DTS   The ProDOS FST thinks your directory structure is damaged.  Try
           running a volume repair utility.
Matt DTS   GA.
Psycosis   Umm....
Psycosis   ::sheepish grin::
Psycosis   Like what?
AFA Gary J GA, Jeffrey
Matt DTS   ProSEL 8 or 16's volume repair is usually a good choice. GA>
JeffreyH11 Not really a question (that comes later), but are there any volume
           repair
JeffreyH11 utilities that will recognize extended files (other than ProSEL
           16)??
AFA Gary J ProSEL 16 is the only one I'm familiar with.
AFA Gary J Anyone else know?
AFA Gary J GA, Marty
AFL Marty  I believe Vitesse makes one.  Not sure though.
AFL Marty  ga
AFA Gary J I think you're right, Marty, but not sure either :)
AFA Gary J Anything else, Rob?
Psycosis   Nah... thanks ;)
AFA Gary J Ok.  Jeffrey has the next question.  GA
JeffreyH11 I recently installed AppleShare on my machine, and have had no
           problem with it
JeffreyH11 in the 16-bit environment (GS/OS 3.02), but when I mount a file
           server, and
JeffreyH11 then go to ProDOS 8, it only half recognizes it.  P8 seems to
           realize there's
JeffreyH11 a device there, and even returns the volume name, but it won't
           recognize the
JeffreyH11 volume name when I refer to it.
AFA Gary J GA Matt
Matt DTS   What's the volume name?
JeffreyH11 "Chem God".  P8 returns it as "/chem.god".  Specifically, in
           Davex, when I
JeffreyH11 refer to the volume as .71, it comes back and tells me it's never
           heard of
JeffreyH11 /chem.god
JeffreyH11 GA
Matt DTS   Uh-uh.  P8 does *not* return dots where spaces are found.
JeffreyH11 Thats what was on my screen.  What happens if it finds a space?
Matt DTS   You have to set the naming to long before you can access volumes
           with illegal P8 names, and even
Matt DTS   then you can't access longer than 15 character names.
JeffreyH11 How do I do this?
Matt DTS   If the name is "Chem God", Davex will return it as "/chem god".
Matt DTS   You can set the naming through PFI commands, as detailed in the
           AppleShare Programmer's Guide.
Matt DTS   It's a lot easier to rename the server, most of the time.  :)
Matt DTS   GA
JeffreyH11 Which I can't find and probably can't afford.  Can you tell me
           where I can find
JeffreyH11 code that will do it?  I can't rename every server on campus so
           that it has a
JeffreyH11 valid P8 name.
Matt DTS   I think Dave has a sample he can send you.  You two can talk about
           it privately.  GA.
JeffreyH11 Dave - is there any way to get davex to do this?
Matt DTS   Note that even with long naming you still can't use P8 to access
           files or directories with names
Matt DTS   longer than 15 characters.  Sorry, but doing otherwise would
           overflow app's P8 data structures.
Matt DTS   GA - really!  :)
Dave Lyons Whoops--
AFA Gary J (I was wondering why Matt is answering Davex questions :)
Dave Lyons wasn't reading the chat closely.  Yeah, like I just flahsed you, I
           have a prototype command that
Dave Lyons will turn long naming on.
JeffreyH11 OK.  Thanks.
Dave Lyons (Because Matt *likes* Davex & thinks it's the best thing since
           sliced ROM.)
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Gary J I thought so.
Matt DTS   Davex is better than, for example, nothing.  :)
AFA Gary J LOL!
AFA Gary J Ok, does anyone else have any burning OS questions this
           evening?
AFA Gary J GA, Johnny
JohnnyRed  Do you know if anybody has come out with drivers to access the
           NetModem or NetSerial from Shiva?
JohnnyRed  GA
AFA Gary J No idea, JohnnyRed.
AFA Gary J Anyone else?
AFA Gary J Guess not.  Ok.  Seaspider - ....
Seaspider  I am kind of late but I was wondering if there was any discussion
           on the new
Seaspider  6.0 system?
AFA Gary J No.  (no discussion on 6.0)
AFA Gary J :)
Seaspider  Last week on the Victory Software chat they mentioned that 6.0 was
           coming
Seaspider  out today..........beta version
Matt DTS   And they got you, too.  Good.
AFA Gary J Perhaps it is, but if it's beta, then it's not available for
           general discussion
AFA Gary J yet.
AFA Gary J At least not from Apple's point of view.
Dave Lyons (What did they *really* say, and how much are you reading into
           what they said?)
AFA Gary J (those who don't know can speculate all they want)
Seaspider  thank you
AFA Gary J GA, Jeffrey
JeffreyH11 Since when do we take Apple's point of view?? :)
JeffreyH11 GA
AFA Gary J :)
Dave Lyons <-- since 4/17/89 :-)
Matt DTS   <-- since 3/14/88
A2GS       <-- since 1/15/87
A2GS       that's when I got my GS  :)
A2GS       Wow Dave, you got your GS pretty recently  :)
AFA Gary J Ok, A2.  You have the next question. GA
A2GS       This is COMPLETELY off the subject (what else is new), but does
           anyone happen
A2GS       to know Approx. how much AppleCare cost for JUST my GS (the
           box)?
A2GS       GA
AFA Gary J Hmmmm.  I don't know exactly, but I think it's right around
           $90.
A2GS       Thanx
AFA Gary J (does that sound right?)
A2GS       Yup, around there
AFA Gary J Ok, Reff.  You're up now.  GA
Reff       I have been having such strange problems with my GS I don't know
           how to decribe
Reff       it but here goes
Reff       I have a hard drive that keeps changing filenames and directory
           names
Reff       The volume name even disapears sometimes.
AFA Gary J Disappear?  Using what program, Finder?
Reff       Using any program the names just change
AFA Gary J GA, Scott
Ez Scott B What SCSI board/interface are you using....check compatability
Ez Scott B GA
Reff       I can't access the drive any longer until I format and restorew
Reff       I am using the second Ramfast
AFA Gary J Very strange.  It may very likely have something to do with your
           Ramfast.
AFA Gary J I've never seen anything like that happen before.
AFA Gary J Reff:  You might try posting your question in one of the topic
           boards and
AFA Gary J see if someone else has encountered that problem.
Reff       I thought it might be the Ramfast also and he sent me another one
           and it does
Reff       the same thing
Ez Scott B hmmm.,....
AFA Gary J It may have something to do with your system configuration.  I'm
           not familiar
AFA Gary J with RamFast problems.
TerryF Cox Check your connections.  I had a Sider 40 do this when the
           connection at the
TerryF Cox back of the computer came loose.
Ez Scott B Check the AHW forum
AFA Gary J Terry has a good suggestion.  Hopefully it'll be something simple
           like that.
AFA Gary J GA, Sandy
AFL SandyB I just remembered I had that happen on my BBS when
AFL SandyB the plug was loose in the plug strip--and filenames
AFL SandyB were altered.
AFA Gary J The electrical plug?  Strange.
AFL SandyB Yup
AFA Gary J Ok.  Let's move on to Ez Scott's question.  GA Scott
Ez Scott B Does ANYBODY still develop in BASIC???
Ez Scott B GA
AFA Gary J Some people do, Scott.
AFL Dyfet  Yes, Scott
AFL Dyfet  There are some projects that are nice to do in basic.
Ez Scott B Nice is not the intent
AFL Dyfet  Well, fast, then.  Sometimes there is nothing faster than getting
           out a quick basic program,
AFL Dyfet  though I can also be pretty fast with C :)
Ez Scott B I need to learn C
AFA Gary J Very true, Dave.
AFA Gary J I used a small BASIC program to help me develop a IIGS
           application the other
AFA Gary J night :)
AFA Gary J (Applesoft)
Ez Scott B applesoft here too
Ez Scott B but basic is weak as far as speed calculations
Ez Scott B for use in Grafix
Ez Scott B C is faster
Ez Scott B Mach. Lang. is fastest
AFA Gary J Yes.  That's where assembly comes in (nicely).
Ez Scott B But assembly is hard to learn
AFA Gary J AppleSoft and assembly are made for each other :)
Ez Scott B i guess so
AFA Gary J Not when you are forced (or driven) to learn it, for the sheer
           need.
Ez Scott B Well, I picked up some Assembly for use in my games....
AFA Gary J I found it very easy to learn assembly as an extention to
           Applesoft.
AFA Gary J (Because Applesoft wouldn't perform like I wanted it to)
Ez Scott B but I've not yet mastered it.
Ez Scott B I.E. sound subroutines, shape tables....
AFA Gary J Exactly, Scott.
Ez Scott B ok
Ez Scott B well...thanks
Ez Scott B bye
AFA Gary J Bye, Scott.  Ok, Sandy, did you have a question?
AFL SandyB Got a question that might not belong here--can I put a ROM 03 on a
           motherboard built for an 01?
AFA Gary J No
AFL SandyB Why?
AFL SandyB I take it it's more than a socket's a socket?
AFA Gary J 2 chips, I think (instead of one)
AFA Gary J Yes.
AFL SandyB A dealer told a friend that he would go ahead and
AFA Gary J It takes a whole motherboard swap.
AFL SandyB put the latest ROM in the motherboard that's being
AFL SandyB switched.
AFL SandyB Friend's motherboard 01 bad. Getting swap for another motherboard
           01 but dealer said they'd
AFL SandyB put in 03.
AFA Gary J Well, if he's getting a whole new motherboard, then maybe that's
           possible
AFA Gary J Ok, Scott, you're up for your question.  GA
AFL Scott  Speaking of C, has anyone seen my distance question in Misc
           developement?
AFA Gary J I have.  (But don't know the answer).
AFA Gary J Interesting question, though.
AFL Scott  Well, I just wanted to add that it's a problem specific to
           machines with less than 8 bit color.  It
AFL Scott  doesn't occur as frequently with 8 bit color.  Additonally, it's
           frequency increases as color
AFL Scott  resolution decreases.
AFA Gary J Interesting, Scott.  You've tried it on > 4 bit color machines,
           eh?
AFL Scott  Yup.  I use that algorithm everyday at work. It works very nearly
           flawlessly. When it doesn't work
AFL Scott  exactly right, dithering takes care of the error.
AFL Scott  It seems that a solution might be to use a weighting value on both
           the target color and the
AFL Scott  palette entry to make sure that no two colors can ever be the same
           distance wise.  I've tried it
AFL Scott  but it really slows things down.