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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
August 1, 1989  10:00 p.m. eastern time
Topic:  Special Guest Dave Szetela of Apple Developer Services
        and Discussion on IIGS System Software 5.0
Forum Leader:   Gary Jacobson (AFA Gary J)

AFP Draco : Well, welcome all to the Apple II Development Forum 
            Conference.
AFP Draco : I now turn the show over to Gary... (take it away)
Jump Long : Welcome back David
AFA Gary J: As Kent said...Welcome this evening.  Tonight we have 
            a special guest...
AFA Gary J: Dave Szetella...
AFA Gary J: ..who is responsible for managing Apple Development 
            programs.
AFA Gary J: I'm Gary Jacobson, and I'll be filling in for Dave 
            Sugar (AFL Dyfet) this evening.
AFA Gary J: (That's Dave Szetela (with one "L"), I'm told :)
D Szetela : Thanks, Gary.
AFA Gary J: We'll be using forum protocol STARTING NOW, so if you 
            have a question, type a "?" on a line by
JSchober  : (hi, quietly.)
AFA Gary J: itself, or if you have a comment on the current topic, 
            type a "!".
AFA Gary J: I see Parik has the first question, GA Parik.
AFA Parik : Hi Dave (wheres Phil & morf?  :)  will Apple release 
            info on writing CDEVs?
AFA Parik : ga
D Szetela : Parik: first, that's moof;...
AFA Gary J: GA, Matt
D Szetela : Second, Phil's engaging in his favorite hobby...
D Szetela : , i.e., buying and selling real estate.
D Szetela : Third,...
D Szetela : for accuracy's sake, I'm manager of
D Szetela : Developer Services, which (this week) does _not_
D Szetela : include Developer Programs, administrators of the
D Szetela : Partners and Associates programs. That said,
D Szetela : I can comment on the programs as inteligently as the 
            next Apple
D Szetela : Developer support-type, as long as it isn't Matt. And
D Szetela : finaly, I'll have to ask one of my merry men (Matt, 
            Jim or Dave) to take the CDEV doc question. MM? ga
Matt DTS  : "Will we publish CDEV information?"  Not for Parik.  
            <grin>
AFA Parik : :P
Matt DTS  : The CDEV sample is torn apart on my hard drive 
            currently and is being reassembled in better pieces
Matt DTS  : and should make it for the September $C7 File Type 
            Note, as well as Source Code Sampler Vol. 2.  GA.
AFA Parik : thanks.  ga
Matt DTS  : <look at your copies of Phil and Dave's Excellent CD's 
            - Dave's hair really looks that way.>
D Szetela : Masterfully put, quacamole-san.
Matt DTS  : And timing is great on this system.
AFA Gary J: Ok, our next question is from Neil.  GA, Neil.
D Szetela : Totally.
RosenNeil : Dave, Not trying to act dumb, but.......... what is a 
            CDev? :)
D Szetela : Ahhh... a CDEV... though CDEV's are my life, I'll
D Szetela : once again defer to my technical superiors. Lads?
D Szetela : ga
Matt DTS  : CDevs are "modules" for the Control Panel New Desk 
            Accessory in 5.0.  Each "icon" is one CDev.
JSchober  : BBL
Matt DTS  : The name is inherited from Macintosh Control Panel 
            modules, which have the filetype 'cdev'.
RosenNeil : So if you dont use the Control Panel NDA, you do not 
            need the CDev folder?
Matt DTS  : They provide an easier way to control some system 
            aspects than DAs, and are easier to write, as...
Matt DTS  : ...hopefully you'll see in September.  YOU NEED THE 
            CDEV FOLDER.  Certain aspects of the system are
Matt DTS  : handled totally by CDevs, and the Control Panel NDA 
            should not be removed.
Matt DTS  : You don't have to use it for everything you can, but 
            some things are not emulated elsewhere (like
Matt DTS  : choosing printers, for example).  GA.
RosenNeil : thanks
AFA Gary J: Ok, Coach, you're up next.
Coach101  : Will the Cdev documentation, as opposed to sample 
            code, be available with
Coach101  : the Septemberish material from APDA?  ga
Matt DTS  : Coach uncharacteristically missed something.  <taken 
            aback>
D Szetela : Have at it, Matthew.
Matt DTS  : The specifications will be in the September *File Type 
            Note* batch (as in, "with Technical Notes").
Matt DTS  : Unrelated to other 5.0 documentation from APDA at any 
            stage.  GA.
Coach101  : Ok, I asked the wrong question...   What I should have 
            asked is will
AFA Gary J: KinkyGS has the next question.  GA Kinky
KINKYGS   : Today while using 5.0, I removed the 
            SystemDisk,inserted AW2.0, launched,then
KINKYGS   : when I aq
Coach101  : the FileTYpe notes be available from APDA in the 
            Septemberish time fram..
KINKYGS   : quit Aw
Coach101  : ga
KINKYGS   : the system went to one moment ples
KINKYGS   : ples=please,
Matt DTS  : (Coach:  with some delay as usual for the duplication 
            process, yes.)
KINKYGS   : and went into monitor  *  with a bunch of numbers what 
            did I do wrong
AFA Gary J: GA, Matt
KINKYGS   : ga
Matt DTS  : Don't use 2.0.  It does stupid things like try to 
            install New Desk Accessories.  2.1 should not...
Matt DTS  : ...have the problem.  Perhaps Mark has more insight 
            (I'm done - GA)
KINKYGS   : BTW 5.0 is cool!  Hats off!
MMunz     : WOuld that be the same problem that causes the new Sys 
            5.0 finder to crash
MMunz     : sometimes when you shut down! :-)
AFA Gary J: GA, Dave
AFA Gary J: (Lyons, that is  :)
Dave Lyons: What?  I don't see the connection between AppleWorks 
            Classic 2.0 calling
Dave Lyons: DeskStartup (it shouldn't) and any Finder crashing.  I 
            haven't seen the Finder
Dave Lyons: crash at shutdown except when an application called 
            ClearHeartBeat (which
Jump Long : ooops
Dave Lyons: should *not* be done).  Any details available?  Any 
            error messages or 
Dave Lyons: numbers on the crash?  Any circumstances?
Dave Lyons: (ga)
MMunz     : On some occasions, when you use a oa-Q (Shutdown), you 
            end up in the monitor,
KINKYGS   : Was that directed to me Dave?
MMunz     : it's happened about half a dozen times.
AFA Gary J: Kinky, perhaps you could post something in the message 
            boards.  See if you can reproduce the
Matt DTS  : We've not seen this happen.  Can you send us a disk 
            that reproduces the problem?
Dave Lyons: (Yes, please.)
AFA Gary J: problem and post more information (error messages, or 
            other stuff that appears on the screen)
KINKYGS   : You mean the system disk?  Right.
KINKYGS   : Sho nuff!
Matt DTS  : It could be as simple as someone trashing memory 
            somewhere.  We'll have to see it to find out.
Matt DTS  : (GA)
AFA Gary J: The system disk and the program that causes the 
            problem.
AFA Gary J: Ok...moving along.. our next question is from AE Phil. 
             GA Phil
IIGS MAN  : How can i utilize music sequences?
AE PhilM  : To Dave Szetela..this is a two parter (comment and 
            question) so bear with me...
IIGS MAN  : oops(thought you were talking to me)
AE PhilM  : First, congradulations for running a first class 
            divison at Apple.  The quality
AE PhilM  : responsivness, accuracy (especially DTS) has been 
            outstanding.
AE PhilM  : Second, I assume you heard about the A2 Central 
            conference, did you get a 
AE PhilM  : chance to see any of the video taped sessions, namely 
            Bill Mensch's talk, and
AE PhilM  : can you comment on it?
AE PhilM  : done
D Szetela : Phil, thanks for the kudos. The credit for
D Szetela : the great technical support you've been seeing goes to 
            the
D Szetela : best and brightest (and nattily dresses) group of 
            Apple II
D Szetela : engineers anywhere, the Apple II DTS team. How about a 
            standing ovation? ga
Matt DTS  : Who wears natty dresses?
AFA Parik : ()() standing
D Szetela : <er... that's nattily dressed.>
Coach101  : The secret is out Matt :)
Coach101  : () ()
KINKYGS   : APPLAUSE:::::::APPLAUSE
AE PhilM  : ()()()()  (thanks to engineering also...they have been 
            pretty great too)
AFA Gary J: Clap clap
D Szetela : OK, enough applause - it'll swell their diminutive 
            egos.
AE PhilM  : :)
KINKYGS   : ;)
D Szetela : Next, I haven't seen the video of Mensch's speech. 
            AIIDTS'ers, do we have a copy? ga
Dave Lyons: (Not that I know of.)
Matt DTS  : I don't think we've made our recommendations yet on 
            which tapes to order.
Jump Long : We should probably order a copy of each...
D Szetela : Well, let's _git_ 'em! Phil, was there anything in
AFA Gary J: Anyone here have information on ordering them?
D Szetela : Mensch's speech that you wanted my comment on? ga
AE PhilM  : Thanks anyhow...I just wanted to know what you may 
            have thought....Bill was a
AE PhilM  : bit tough on Apple :))
AFL Vince : (I do, Gary)
AFA Parik : (where do we write to order?)
AFA Gary J: Vince, could you please tell us where we can order the 
            tapes?
IIGS MAN  : protocol!
IIGS MAN  : use ? or !
AFL Vince : (A2 Central - Audios are $7.00 each, Vidios are $21.00 
            each.  There is a price breakdown for
AFA Gary J: (and then we'll get on to Parik's question)
AFL Vince : ordering more than one.  I'll post it in Forum 
            Business)
AFA Gary J: Thanks, Vince.
AFA Gary J: GA, Parik.
AFA Parik : something I'd like to see is the great minds who wear 
            natty dresses write more
AFA Parik : stuff in Apple Viewpoints and that other monthly mag.  
            Depressing seeing mac
AFA Parik : stuff only week after week.  ga
D Szetela : Parik, I agree. We'
IIGS MAN  : I have a couple of questions.
D Szetela : need to beat the bushes more to get
D Szetela : some of the Apple II people writing. They just
AFA Gary J: (You'll be right after DR Why, IIGS Man.)
D Szetela : work too damned hard. ga
D Szetela : I'm sure Matt can elucidate.
D Szetela : ga
AFA Gary J: I see we have a couple of comments here... :)
AFA Gary J: GA, Matt
Matt DTS  : Having had a lot (or more) to do with the July TN 
            batch (180 pages done in more or less two weeks)...
Matt DTS  : ...I don't think the problem is not writing; I think 
            it's what we choose to write.  I actually was
Matt DTS  : thinking about some ViewPoints subjects this week and 
            was trying to decide on one to try for
HyperRam  : BRB
Matt DTS  : publication.  (with.)  But if I do, something else in 
            the works like FT notes or Sample Code will get
Matt DTS  : delayed instead.  GA.
AFA Gary J: GA with your comment, Jim
D Szetela : Jim - something to add? ga
AFA Parik : it seems theres a short press time for viewpoints, why 
            not put in a "whats
Jump Long : What Matt said ^^^... I've been rather busy with 
            Technical Notes this week, too
Jump Long : ga
AFA Parik : coming" so developers not on alink can find out when 
            the next tn batch is 
AFA Parik : a coming?
AFA Parik : <done>
Matt DTS  : They come every other month like clockwork - it would 
            be like announcing:
Matt DTS  : "Midnight will follow 11:59 PM this week."  GA.
Doctor Why: I installed 5.0 on my hard disk, including the CDEV 
            folder and new control
AFA Gary J: Ok, Dr Why has our next question...
Doctor Why: panel, but when I select the new control panel, I'm 
            told to insert the
Doctor Why: System disk.  What gives? GA
AFA Gary J: GA, Jim 
Jump Long : Did you use the 5.0 Installer to install 5.0?
Doctor Why: No.
Matt DTS  : (may I?)
Jump Long : Then use it and try again.
AE PhilM  : Elaborate Matt
Matt DTS  : *NEVER* use 5.0 on a system that wasn't installed with 
            the Installer.
Jump Long : The Installer copies both the data fork and the 
            resource fork of ALL files
Matt DTS  : The relationship between the files is complicated and 
            all must be present in the right places...
Jump Long : needed for each installation. If you miss one file or 
            use a copy program that
Jump Long : can't handle the resource fork of a file, your 
            installation won't work.
Jump Long : ga
AE PhilM  : Thank you.  We get this call at least 30 times a day 
            at Applied Engineering.
AFA Gary J: (Like Copy II Plus ...won't work)
Matt DTS  : ...what Jim said will happen.  Bad things.  The 
            Installer now lets you select multiple scripts
Doctor Why: I was in ORCA
Matt DTS  : (with the shift key or the Apple key for discontinuous 
            selections), so the whole process
AE PhilM  : ORCA does not know about extended files, Doc.
Jump Long : (Finder 4.0, ORCA/M's copy and APW's copy don't work 
            either)
Matt DTS  : is pretty easy.  Never ever don't use it.  GA
Jump Long : Never don't, Matt??
Matt DTS  : Never ever don't use the Installer to install 5.0.
Doctor Why: I guesss I've been told!   :)
Jump Long : :)
AFA Gary J: :)  Ok, IIGS Man has a couple of questions for us.
AFA Gary J: GA IIGS Man.
IIGS MAN  : A:Where is system disk 5.0? (One more question after 
            this)
AFA Gary J: Have you checked at your dealer?  It IS shipping.
IIGS MAN  : its AUGUST!
AFA Gary J: It will be here on AppleLink on August 7.
Jump Long : On my desk, on Matt's desk, several other places... 
            including your dealer.
IIGS MAN  : Why the 7th?
Matt DTS  : It's better than the 8th, for example.
AFA Gary J: GA, Jeff
AE PhilM  : On Vulcan :)
IIGS MAN  : ha ha. REALLY.
AFA Gary J: :)
Jump Long : The seventh is the day Apple licensing will let them 
            distribute 5.0
JeffDavies: I can't find a dealer in Western Mass with it and when 
            I do can they charge
JeffDavies: for it?
Matt DTS  : A package with user-level documentation (including 
            network installation) is available for $49.
JeffDavies: I will pay but I want the APDA release with the notes
HyperRam  : I just bought mine today.
IIGS MAN  : How much is docs only?
Matt DTS  : Your dealer *may* copy the disks for you at no charge, 
            but he is not required to.
Matt DTS  : The APDA release is "in the process" and will be ready 
            in about 4 to 6 weeks, APDA people tell me.
IIGS MAN  : disks? system tools 5.0!
Matt DTS  : The dealers do not sell a "documentation only" package.
Matt DTS  : (was that all of them?)
IIGS MAN  : oh.
IIGS MAN  : I have more!
AFA Gary J: Did that answer it for you, IIGS Man?
Matt DTS  : Ay yi yi.
AFA Gary J: GA with your next one..
Jump Long : +(HRam)yes
IIGS MAN  : B:How can i use Note sequencer files? do i need to be 
            a programmer?
IIGS MAN  : thats it!
Michael515: hi
AFA Gary J: GA, Matt
Matt DTS  : I'd like a clarification of "note sequencer files".  
            There is no filetype/auxtype for sequences...
IIGS MAN  : Go matt,answer away!
Matt DTS  : ...although there coud be one with little trouble.  
            What do you mean?
IIGS MAN  : The ones used for the MS to Sequencer files.
Matt DTS  : (ga)
IIGS MAN  : Would it be hard to make an NDA that would play them?
Matt DTS  : (MS = Music Studio?)  I dunno.  Technically, a 
            sequence is just the format of data fed to the
IIGS MAN  : correct!
Matt DTS  : Note Sequencer toolset, which uses the Note 
            Synthesizer to play the notes in sequence.
Matt DTS  : It might not be too difficult to do an NDA to play 
            them, although you'd have the same problems...
IIGS MAN  : So i need to be a programmer.:(
Matt DTS  : ...that any NDA using sound tools would have (see IIgs 
            Technical Note #53).
Matt DTS  : GA.
Matt DTS  : (wait, don't)
Matt DTS  : I think the purpose of an MS to Sequence utility would 
            be to allow developers to use MS as a...
Matt DTS  : ...program to create sequences for use in their own 
            programs.  It helps them write their music more
Matt DTS  : easily.  I don't think it was intended to be a 
            user-level tool, if I understand correctly.  GA.
IIGS MAN  : For me it would allow me to play my favorite MS songs 
            via NDA!
Matt DTS  : (really, this time, GA0
Matt DTS  : )
AFA Gary J: HyperRam, did you still have a comment?
AFA Gary J: No..he's gone..
AFA Gary J: :)
AFA Parik : (actually Paul Gauthier has written a program to play 
            MS songs, and i think
AFA Parik : BG music NDA will play them - check in the AMS)
Coach101  : There has been a LARGE number of postings about 5.0 in 
            the last week
AFA Gary J: Ok, Coach, GA with your question.
Coach101  : or so.  Was the volume of reports that have been on 
            seen an ALPE anticipated?
Coach101  : ga
Matt DTS  : Waitaminnute...
Matt DTS  : "reports" on what?  I haven't read the message area 
            and don't know to what you refer.
AFA Parik : (you poor boy)
Coach101  : Take an hour, or two, or three.....  There have been a 
            lot of
AFA Gary J: Anticipated?  I don't think the 5.0 postings were any 
            different than the ones that appeard after
AFA Gary J: the release of GS/OS back in September.
Coach101  : this does not work (followed by a yes it does) 
            followed by.....Where is Dave S tonight anyway??Sugar that is...
Coach101  : I came on ALPE in December, and it seemed that the 5.0 
            stuff clearly
Coach101  : outdistanced the 4.0 stuff.   No pan intended was just 
            wondering
Matt DTS  : Personally...
AFA Parik : [because 4.0 was spread over many forums, 5.0 seems to 
            be ADV only... in Nov
Dave Lyons: (No pan intended?)
AFA Parik : there was 1000s of msgs!]
Coach101  : if Apple had anticipated the variableness of the 
            reports...   ga
Matt DTS  : I expected a lot of the "x crashes" type messages to 
            result from people who didn't use the Installer.
AFL Vince : (why does everyone confuse SYSTEM 5.0 with GSOS ? :)
Doctor Why: You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit in 
            the wind, you don't install
Matt DTS  : So far, what I am seeing more or less corroborates 
            that.  Please help spread the word to use it.
Doctor Why: 5.0 by anything other than the Installer.
Doctor Why: (Have I been forgiven)
Matt DTS  : Also, there were many pre-release copies floating 
            around, and mixing/matching can be dangerous, too.
Matt DTS  : I think I've seen reports of one "5.0" release disk 
            being passed around with some pre-release parts.
KINKYGS   : <------not cornphused
Matt DTS  : If you don't know the source of your 5.0 disks, you 
            might try getting them again and reinstalling.
Coach101  : If everything is v03.00 is that release?  or possibly 
            pre-release?
Matt DTS  : There are a LOT of changes, and it will take time to 
            get word of all of them out to the world.
Matt DTS  : Not even the version number is a safe check - some of 
            the very last disks before release had all the
Matt DTS  : version numbers set for final.  Check with a friend, a 
            dealer, or try downloading again (ack!).
Matt DTS  : (And note that the AppleShare FST is version 2.01, not 
            3.00.)
Dave Lyons: Many toolsets are 3.1, not 3.0, too.
Dave Lyons: (Those don't show up during boot, though.)
Case      : What problems would we encounter if we use the 
            pre-released 5.0
Coach101  : Thanks....
Matt DTS  : It
Matt DTS  : It's like asking "what would happen to my drive if I 
            pulled the interface card while the computer
Matt DTS  : was powered on?"  It would be interesting, not fun, 
            and not predictable.
Case      : Ok, I see. That gets the point across!
JeffDavies: I had a customer ask the disk drive question today, 
            because they did it!(smart)
Matt DTS  : (ga marty - we're out of protocol.)
Case      : Could we possibly see a new CPU to go along with 5.0?
AFA Gary J: :)
Coach101  : :)
AFL Marty : Are there any changes in the ImageWriter printer 
            driver which would account...
AFL Marty : for an AppleWorks GS page layout to go awry?
Jump Long : Yes, Marty. If you have any bad fonts...
AFL Marty : (on the screen)
Jump Long : (on the screen??)
AFL Marty : Yes... let me explain...
AFA Gary J: Please  :)
Matt DTS  : A change to the driver can't affect anything on the 
            screen.
AFL Marty : If I elect to size the page layout to fit the screen...
D Szetela : 'Scuse me, folks - gotta run. Thanks for inviting me! 
            Bye.
AFL Marty : the text areas are no longer aligned the way they are 
            if I use...
AFL Marty : the same program and the same data with System 4.0.
AFA Gary J: Thanks for comeing, Dave!
Coach101  : Good night Dave.
AFL Marty : In fact, the text areas are often off the screen 
            almost entirely.
Jump Long : See you tomorrow Dave
AFL Vince : (Dennis - This one, in Forum Business)
Dave Lyons: Marty, are you using AWGS 1.0v2 or 1.0v1?
AFL Marty : The scroll bar at the bottom will only take me halfway 
            across the page.
AFL Marty : AWGS 1.0v2
AFC Mark  : The problem lies in that AWGS stores the Page Layout 
            settings as part of the...
AFL Marty : And yes, I used the installer for System 5.0.
AFC Mark  : document... and attempts to restore them when 
            reloaded- this has caused...
KINKYGS   : Bye all. Thanks for answering my ?  If problem 
            presists will be in touch!
AFC Mark  : problems within 4.0 itself- by switching from the 
            standard IW driver and the...
AFC Mark  : IWCL... but it really is noticable under 5.0.
AFL Marty : Is there any way to fix this, short of reverting to 
            4.0?
Matt DTS  : If that's the case, then you should be able to:
Matt DTS  : 1) Rename your 4.0 ImageWriter driver something like 
            IW4.0
Matt DTS  : 2) Select that as the printer in the Control Panel NDA
AFC Mark  : Reset your Page Setup parameters as you originally had 
            them... and it should
AFC Mark  : work just fine.
Matt DTS  : 3) Launch AWGS and load your document
Matt DTS  : 4) Switch to the new printer driver and save it.
Matt DTS  : (will redoing page setup fix it?  Does it actually 
            change the parameters in some weird way?)
AFC Mark  : Yes... it does... and I've been trying to figure out 
            how...
AFL Marty : I did that Mark.  It didn't help.
AFC Mark  : (No luck so far)Anytime.
AFL Marty : Didn't you just say the print driver wouldn't affect 
            the screen?
Matt DTS  : Oh.  Then what I said might not work.  (But if what he 
            said didn't, what I said might.)  <geez>
Matt DTS  : <things used to be easier>
AFC Mark  : Wouldn't it be nice if people followed the rules!!! B-)
AFL Marty : It sure would.
Dave Lyons: I think there's at least 1 way the driver could 
            indirectly affect the screen--
AFA Parik : (are you taling about Imagewriter CL?)
Dave Lyons: the application probably calls PrValidate to let the 
            currently-selected driver
Dave Lyons: set up some stuff in the "print record" & then 
            computes the display based
Dave Lyons: partly on that information.  I don't know what, if 
            anything, was changed in
Dave Lyons: the 5.0 IW driver that would affect the print record.
Matt DTS  : Yeah, but the standard values and their locations in 
            the print record haven't changed to my knowledge
Doctor Why: Well, I have a date with the Installer...Good night, 
            and thanks.
Matt DTS  : in the 5.0 drivers.
AFA Gary J: Goodnight, Doc
Matt DTS  : I have a dinner appointment.  Good night, and see 
            everyone next week.  (hope that helps, Marty)
Dave Lyons: Yeah, I don't see why they would've changed.
AFC Mark  : But, if you don't originally have your page setup laid 
            out to coincide with the
AFA Gary J: Goodnight, Matt.
AFC Mark  : document, it wouldn't load correctly
AFL Marty : I just emailed you one of the files I'm having 
            problems with Mark.
AFL Marty : The PL looks perfect under 4.0... under 5.0 it's a 
            disaster.