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SUBJECT: JACK MATHIAS DEFENDING THE PHOENIX PROJECT FILE: UFO1546
===========================================================================
BBS: Flite-Line
Date: 08-10-92 (14:16) Number: 218
From: JACK MATHIAS Refer#: NONE
To: ALL Recvd: NO
Subj: RESPONSE TO PARANET 1/5 Conf: (29) StrangeUne
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Distribution: To All
To: Michael Corbin - ParaNet Information Service
From: The Phoenix Project
Via Jack Mathias
Date: 08/10/92
Re: Your recent message concerning the Phoenix Project
Until your initial response to our release of the Dulce and K2
Reports this organization would have treated you and ParaNet with
the common courtesy and respect due any serious researcher.
However, your spontaneous and instant negative reaction to our
reports caused us to reconsider.
Let us review the facts. You reacted by issuing a public warning
to the members of ParaNet, which was also widely distributed via
other BBS's nation-wide. That warning contained language which
implied the information, and the source, were highly suspect.
Thus, single-handedly, you created a strong impression throughout
the UFO community, that our information was false. Many sincere
people, trusting your qualifications, accepted your warning.
Tell us Mr. Corbin, how did you arrive at that almost instantaneous
conclusion? The conclusion that the information contained in the
Dulce Report was highly suspect and possibly false? At the time,
all you had in your possession was the first part of the Report
that we released to various BBS's. You did not have any of the
exhibits or supporting documents contained in the second part of
the Report - information, that was only available in printed form.
You had not seen or had any opportunity to review the support
documents.
Let's face it, Michael - you blew it. The sequence of events, and
the timing of your response, are the facts. The rest is self-
evident. You took it upon yourself to make a snap judgement
without examining the evidence. Is this the way that you evaluate
all new information? It is difficult for us to believe that the
ParaNet Organization would approve or condone such behavior on your
part. Your actions are not what one would expect from an
individual occupying a leadership position in the UFO research
community, or ParaNet. You abused your position of trust and
responsibility.
In your message, you mention that you wrote to the Phoenix Project,
after the fact and your preliminary judgement, requesting further
information. You made the same comment in other BBS messages. You
state that we did not respond to your request. You also imply, by
insinuation, that this is a mark against us and a further
indication that we are suspect. Let us give this further
clarification. After being informed that you had written us, we
checked our mail daily, looking for your letter. To date we have
not received your letter of inquiry. Apparently, of all the mail
we receive, your letter is the only one that has gone astray. We
can only conclude that is was either lost in the mail or you didn't
mail it. Did it ever occur to you to mail us a second request,
when you did not receive a response to your first inquiry? Most
people would do so.
But, this was not the end of your attitude problem regarding the
Phoenix Project. You did the same thing, again, issuing warnings,
etc., with our release of the K-2 and the Ultimate Secret Reports.
And, again, you had not seen or examined the supporting documents
at the time you issued those warnings to ParaNet and the public.
Continued next message.
... "Mr. Worf, fire phasers at All" ... Zzzzzap!
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
===========================================================================
BBS: Flite-Line
Date: 08-10-92 (14:16) Number: 219
From: JACK MATHIAS Refer#: NONE
To: ALL Recvd: NO
Subj: RESPONSE TO PARANET 2/5 Conf: (29) StrangeUne
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
istribution: To All
To: Michaell Corbin -- ParaNet Information Service
From: Phoenix Project
The first time was inexcusable, but the second and third time?
Are you trying to set a new record for prejudice? Again, long
after the fact, you admit that someone provided you with the
supporting documents concerning K-2 and the Ultimate Secret. You
also state, that you didn't notice anything of significance in
those documents - and, you continue to issue messages containing
warnings. Would we be out of line in concluding that your mind was
already made-up? Fortunately, for the UFO Movement, other
investigators and researchers don't share your opinion.
You state in your initial message that "much of the information in
the Dulce Report about Dulce and the Archuleta Mesa contradicts
information already provided to ParaNet by other capable
investigators." What information? Who provided it? How did you
determine its validity? We formally request access to that
information. We'd like to examine it ourselves. Can we obtain
copies of "that" information?
Now, let us get to the main thrust of your message - your
investigation to reveal the personnel of the Phoenix Project.
Congratulations Mr. Corbin. You've just won the Golden Fleece
Award for outstanding ineptness in your investigation of the
Phoenix Project. Your efforts thus far indicate a degree of
amateur sleuthing more in line with that of a Cub Reporter trying
to get a job on the staff of The Daily Sentinel. True to form
(notable in many self-centered and Godly UFO Organizations) and
lacking any real expertise, let alone concrete evidence, your
message reveals what purports to be the results of your
investigation into the Phoenix Project. The result: a conclusion
based on quote - "coincidences that are striking and suggestive."
That's it? -- Come now, do you expect us, or anyone else with a
sound mind, to be impressed?
How could anyone fail to note that there is no mention of any hard
evidence or anything resembling same. Could we all be wrong as to
what constitutes legitimate evidence? Or do you make that
determination, as well?
Seated upon your starry throne you seem to have elected yourself to
be the final arbiter of the truth concerning the information
revealed by the Phoenix Project, assuming the role of Judge, Jury
and Executioner in a Kangaroo Court Proceeding of your own
fashioning and design. Somewhere out there, there must be others
that are just as impressed by this demonstration of arm-chair
expertise and power, as we are. The results of your "so-called"
investigation would be laughable if anyone ignored the tragic
implications of what it reveals.
What, if anything, is the Phoenix Project guilty of? Is it the
fact that we dared to question and investigate two of the sacred
cows of UFO-dom namely the ones you mentioned, i.e., "underground
alien bases, and the cluster of government projects referred to
collectively as Operation Majestic Twelve?" Where did we ever get
the silly idea that revealing the truth about these topics was the
objective we are all seeking? Did we miss an important briefing?
According to our sources within the intelligence community, the
Dulce Scam, perpetrated by the disinformation specialists of MAJI,
better known to you as Majestic Twelve with help from the CIA and
NSA, is considered one of their most brilliant success stories.
Only Project Redlight comes close to achieving the same degree of
success.
Tell us, Mr. Corbin, where did we go wrong? Armed with that
information from trusted sources, was the Phoenix Project out of
line in pricking the bubble of that illusion? You might also note
that we referenced our investigation to commonly "accepted"
reliable information from "so-called" serious UFO researchers.
Continued next message.
... "Mr. Worf, fire phasers at All" ... Zzzzzap!
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
===========================================================================
BBS: Flite-Line
Date: 08-10-92 (14:16) Number: 220
From: JACK MATHIAS Refer#: NONE
To: ALL Recvd: NO
Subj: RESPONSE TO PARANET 3/5 Conf: (29) StrangeUne
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Distribution: To All
To: Michael Corbin - ParaNet Information Service
From: Phoenix Project
We sent in experienced investigators, not amateurs, to check out
the alleged Dulce Base. Those people knew what to look for, how to
look for it, how to get answers, and are not easily mislead.
If you do not agree with our findings, get off your posterior, go
to Dulce, and check it out for yourself. In fact, we invite
anybody to do the same thing. We're sure you'll find exactly what
we did -- absolutely nothing to support the information supposedly
provided by "reliable" (?) sources. We are not inclined to accept
your arm-chair analysis of what is or isn't there or the validity
of our findings. However, if you do get off your posterior and go
to Dulce, and find anything of significance that we missed, we'll
be more than happy to alter our stance and publicly admit we really
missed something. The important item is to reveal the truth
concerning the Dulce illusion.
You imply that you're good at asking questions -- how are you at
answering them? We have a few questions. Would you mind sharing
with all of us, everyone on the BBS's and the public, what hard
evidence you have that, without question, supports the presence and
validity of the Dulce Base. In all fairness, can that evidence
stand further scrutiny and investigation? Is it so credible that
you are absolutely certain that it is genuine? Are you absolutely
certain that any such evidence, if it exists, really pertains to
the location referred to as Dulce? Is it possible, if such
evidence exists, that it pertains to some location other than Dulce
but Dulce was how it was labeled? Are you willing to offer that
evidence to other investigators and make it available for public
scrutiny. If your answer to any of the foregoing questions is
"negative" or "no," we rest our case. Unless you have irrefutable
evidence to present, made available for public scrutiny and
evaluation, which invalidates the findings of the Phoenix Project
regarding Dulce, K-2, or the Ultimate Secret, or our future
reports, back off. Either put-up or shut-up. In other words, get
off our back.
The Phoenix Project is now making the results of its investigations
and the evidence it has obtained, public. Anyone seriously
interested in revealing the truth is encouraged to check it out.
In fact we want them to check it out for themselves. It won't take
an intelligent person long to discover that we report exactly what
we find. We're not playing games with serious researchers or the
public. Since we do not have unlimited funding, or the time to
continuously monitor the on-going aspects of every area we have
investigated, we do the best we can under the circumstances. We
actively encourage other serious investigators to use the
information we have provided as a basis for conducting their own
inquiry and to carry-on our effort. Can you, Mr. Corbin, or
ParaNet, or Mufon, make the same claim. Or, is it true that the
results of critical investigations are held sacred by the elite
leadership of these organizations, and are not shared with the
member's of their organizations or the public?
In your message, you insinuate that because of our past military
and intelligence backgrounds, our area of expertise so-to-speak,
that the motives of the Phoenix Project are suspect. You further
insinuate that we are possibly government operatives attempting to
send serious researchers off on a variety of wild goose chases. If
that were true, which it isn't, or original, which it isn't, we're
certainly going about it in a novel way. We are not government
operatives, and we are not passing along disinformation provided by
any government agency. To our way of thinking that concept smacks
of "guilt by association." Bye-the-way, have you ever heard the
expression "when did you stop beating your wife?"
If anyone needed assurance that the truth regarding UFO's will
remain a deep, dark, secret -- they can rest secure in the
knowledge that you, are on the job. There are any number of
government agencies who would welcome you with open arms. Expect
some offers.
Continued next message.
... "Mr. Worf, fire phasers at All" ... Zzzzzap!
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
===========================================================================
BBS: Flite-Line
Date: 08-10-92 (14:16) Number: 221
From: JACK MATHIAS Refer#: NONE
To: ALL Recvd: NO
Subj: RESPONSE TO PARANET 4/5 Conf: (29) StrangeUne
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Distribution: To All
To: Michael Corbin - ParaNet Information Service
From: Phoenix Project
We are sure that the honest and sincere members of ParaNet and
other UFO investigative organizations (and there are many) must be
seriously considering whether your qualifications, fitness and
investigative ability warrant your continuance in a position of
leadership within what used to be a respected research
organization.
The Phoenix Project offered what amounted to new information
regarding the subjects covered in the reports released. The "meat
and potatoes - the main course. You chose to ignore that, and went
for the desert. Instead of making an honest attempt to validate or
disprove our findings regarding the subjects mentioned -- missing
the point completely, you chose to become obsessed with determining
the identity of Phoenix Project personnel. For what reason? Do you
intend to judge the validity of the information based on the
credentials of those providing it? Some people would interpret
that as putting the cart before the horse. Explain to us how or
why the credentials of our investigators, or their identity, have
any bearing on the validity of the information. Either the
information is true or it isn't. It's as simple as that, or does
that simple fact escape you.
Your obsession with establishing the identity of Phoenix Project
personnel could lead us to believe that "you" have an ulterior
motive. How can we, or others, be assured of your motives. One does
not need a brilliant mind to envision a scenario where the
information the Phoenix Project has released is discredited because
of an act of character assignation. This is a ploy utilized by not
only the government but others who wish to suppress information.
It has been used over and over again, with great success. Anyone
familiar with the history of the UFO cover-up knows of and could
cite you a dozen examples.
Suppose we asked these questions -- would you be prepared to
respond to them? Who are you? What are your credentials? Who are
those holding positions of leadership in ParaNet? What are their
qualifications and credentials? How do we know that you or ParaNet
are not controlled by government operatives? What qualifications
are required to hold a position of leadership within ParaNet? Who
receives the results of investigations conducted by ParaNet? Are
the results always made public? Are your records open for public
inspection? Do you ever conceal investigative results from your
members or the public? Every coin has two sides. If you can ask
questions and demand answers, we claim the same privilege. If you
think we will back-down because of your insinuations and
innuendoes, think again.
Regarding your message, and some of the items you've uncovered,
that are "striking coincidences." We found the following
interesting:
We were unaware that anyone had ever attempted to create a
corporation in Nevada calling itself the Phoenix Project. Due to
the nature of our work, and to protect the identity of our
personnel it would be a foolish endeavor. We never made an attempt
to incorporate our organization in any State.
We do not know, nor have we ever heard of, or met, an individual by
the name of Thomas C. Naylor. This interests us. You will let us
know what you discover about him - won't you?
You suggest a possible link between our organization and America
West. Sorry about that, but you're dead wrong. It has come to us
from several sources that we're not on their list of favorite
people. We will take this opportunity to categorically deny that
we have any affiliation with America West, their publication the
"Phoenix Liberator," or any other publication they provide.
Continued next message.
... "Mr. Worf, fire phasers at All" ... Zzzzzap!
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
===========================================================================
BBS: Flite-Line
Date: 08-10-92 (14:16) Number: 222
From: JACK MATHIAS Refer#: NONE
To: ALL Recvd: NO
Subj: RESPONSE TO PARANET 5/5 Conf: (29) StrangeUne
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Distribution: To All
To: Michael Corbin - ParaNet Information Service
From: Phonenix Project
The fact that one of our investigator's forgot his camera on a
quick trip to K-2 seems to intrigue you and many others. There's
an old saying "Nobody's Perfect." Since we've never made the claim
of being perfect, its absurd to expect us to abide by that
standard. We did have a choice of including or deleting it from
our report. After all, if we hadn't mentioned it, he would
certainly look better. After discussion, we left it in because it
was the truth. It's a peccadillo we'll have to live with,
sometimes the truth hurts, or haven't you noticed.
Do not expect us to respond to the other coincidences,
suppositions, insinuations or innuendoes contained in your message.
Since you brought up America West and The "Phoenix Liberator," why
not turn your investigative abilities loose on their organization.
Just suppose that Milton Cooper is, quietly, linked to their
organization. That should intrigue you. Equally intriguing, is
where their funding comes from - not the obvious subscription
income - the covert funding. Or, how about the busy and numerous,
off premise, writers that prepare the volumes of "Hatonn" material,
and their use of high-speed modems to provide the copy for each
weekly issue of the "Phoenix Liberator" and the dozens of books
they produce. In our supposition, we're talking about a big-time
operation. You might also check out their printing facilities,
distribution centers, and world-wide circulation. Equally
fascinating is their sudden rise, in a few short years, to the top
of the New Age Movement. You might even think to ask yourself, why
the New Age Movement? What possible connection is there with
covert government UFO activities, or a New World Order, with the
New Age Movement? The answer to that might be revealed, if you dig
deep enough, and discover high-speed modem links between their
headquarters and certain organizations located at Langley and Ft.
Meade. Yes, if you really dig, you might uncover all kinds of
interesting things about America West. However, since you don't
take any information provided by the Phoenix Project seriously,
this supposition will surely be labeled a fictional work. The
product of over-worked imaginations and stressed-out investigators.
Oh, well!
As to your effort in trying to identify staff personnel of the
Phoenix Project -- good luck. However, we do have to admit that
you may get lucky and hit on a couple of them. However, since
there are many, it is doubtful you will ever get beyond that point.
It is not our intent nor will it become our objective to enter into
an adversarial debate with either you or ParaNet, or any other
individual or research organization. However, you started this
debacle - we didn't. You implied our information was suspect and
possibly false. Under the circumstances, we have every right to
express our viewpoints on this issue.
In our opinion, the public deserves the truth regarding the real
story of UFO's, government involvement and the Alien threat. That
should be our objective. It is up to "serious" researchers to
really dig and reveal the facts and make them known. The Phoenix
Project has dedicated its staff and resources, for over forty
years, to that objective. Perhaps you'll agree that, that
objective is more productive than entertaining the public via the
BBS links with a side-show of petty squabbles and bickering between
individuals and organizations.
Signed,
The Phoenix Project
This response by the Phoenix Project to a recent message
originating from Michael Corbin of ParaNet, will be posted on all
available BBS's.
... "Mr. Worf, fire phasers at All" ... Zzzzzap!
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
BBS: Flite-Line
Date: 08-12-92 (10:53) Number: 5082
From: JACK MATHIAS Refer#: NONE
To: ALL Recvd: NO
Subj: Advent's Reply to paranet Conf: (46) UFO(Fido)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following is Advent's reply to ParaNet. I am only acting as relay.
August 12, 1992
To: Mr. Michael Corbin
ParaNet Information Service
From: Advent Publishing Company and
Richard T. Miller
A message from you, made public on many BBS's and pertaining mainly
to the Phoenix Project, was brought to my attention. In that
message you mention my name, the name of my company, and try to
create an impression that I am involved in some type of activity
and have relationships with others that is questionable.
You state in your message: "based on striking and suggestive
circumstances," that there is a possible connection between myself,
Advent Publishing Company, and another publisher - known as America
West and one of their publications "The Phoenix Liberator." You
fail to clearly label your statements, or your presumptions, as
"pure" speculation. I find your technique of using such
speculation, and the end-result of that usage - guilt by
implication - very offensive.
The statement I refer to is - whether I am, or my company is,
another incarnation of America West and their people. The answer is
an emphatic - no.
Let me set the record straight. I am a semi-retired electronic and
radio and television broadcast engineer. I am also the sole owner
of Advent Publishing Company. This Company is registered as a sole
proprietorship, in Carson County, State of Nevada. I operate this
business to occupy my spare time and to supplement my retirement
income. Neither myself, or my Company has any connection with
America West Publishing, their publication the "Phoenix Liberator,"
or any of their numerous publications. I do not know them, and I
have never had any dealings with them.
It should be perfectly clear and very obvious from what I've
stated, that I find the activities of America West and the content
of the "Phoenix Liberator" thoroughly disgusting. And that, Mr.
Corbin, is the overwhelming reason for my use of a strong
disclaimer, disavowing any relationship or affiliation with the
above named organization, its publications, and their known
principals.
You also raise the question as to whether I am the same Richard
Miller who, many years ago, communicated with an individual known
as Hatonn and started an organization known as the Solar Cross.
My answer may startle you. Yes I am, and yes I did. However, I
have not been active in such activities for many years. I am
answering this question only because of your attempt to make an
onerous association between myself and America West, and the
"Phoenix Liberator." An association that doesn't exist.
I can state, however, without reservation, that the "Phoenix
Liberator" is fraudulently using the name Hatonn and claiming he is
the source of their information. They have used the name of a
respected Being as a "drawing card" to entice the innocent and lend
a degree of credibility to the rubbish they publish.
I am not the only one who might feel this way. In closing let me
quote a paragraph in a message sent to Jack Mathias by Don Allen,
regarding America West and the "Phoenix Liberator," on Fido_UFO:
"Jack - Received your message and here is something to mull over.
Just remember that people who claim to channel "Higher Entities"
should be judged not only on their words, but also by their actions
and ethics. I have read a considerable amount of "Hatonn's"
material and it does not leave me feeling edified, uplifted or
enlightened. It is very condemnatory. It is, I submit, not of the
Light. These aren't the words of a "Christed being"...they are
Cooperish rantings from quick buck con artists and most likely the
"entity" that Dharma" is "channelling" (If "Hatonn" exists at all)
is most definitely some lower/dark astral being. By their fruits
ye shall know them."
RTM
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
**********************************************
* THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo *
**********************************************
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