464 lines
24 KiB
Plaintext
464 lines
24 KiB
Plaintext
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Q&A with Emmanuel Goldstein of
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2600: The Hacker's Quarterly
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(CNN) -- Emmanuel Goldstein is the
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editor-in-chief of 2600: The Hacker Quarterly and
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hosts a weekly radio program in New York called
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"Off the Hook."
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1. How do you define hacking?
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Hacking is, very simply, asking a lot of
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questions and refusing to stop asking. This
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is why computers are perfect for inquisitive
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people -- they don't tell you to shut up
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when you keep asking questions or
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inputting commands over and over and
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over. But hacking doesn't have to confine
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itself to computers. Anyone with an
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inquisitive mind, a sense of adventure and
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strong beliefs in free speech and the right
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to know most definitely has a bit of the
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hacker spirit in them.
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2. Are there legal or appropriate forms of
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hacking?
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One of the common misconceptions is that
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anyone considered a hacker is doing
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something illegal. It's a sad commentary on
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the state of our society when someone who
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is basically seeking knowledge and the truth
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is assumed to be up to something nefarious.
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Nothing could be further from the truth.
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Hackers, in their idealistic naivet<65>, reveal
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the facts that they discover, without
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regard for money, corporate secrets or
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government coverups. We have nothing to
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hide, which is why we're always relatively
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open with the things we do -- whether it's
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having meetings in a public place or running
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a system for everyone to participate in
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regardless of background. The fact that we
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don't "play the game" of secrets also makes
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hackers a tremendous threat in the eyes of
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many who want to keep things away from
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the public.
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Secrets are all well and good, but if the
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only thing keeping them a secret is the fact
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that you say it's a secret, then it's not
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really a very good secret. We suggest using
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strong encryption for those really interested
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in keeping things out of the hands of
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outsiders. It's interesting also that hackers
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are the ones who are always pushing strong
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encryption -- if we were truly interested in
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getting into everyone's personal affairs, it's
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unlikely we'd try and show them how to
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stay secure. There are, however, entities
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who are trying to weaken encryption.
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People should look toward them with
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concern, as they are the true threat to
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privacy.
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3. What in your mind is the purpose of
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hacking?
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To seek knowledge, discover something
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new, be the first one to find a particular
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weakness in a computer system or the first
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to be able to get a certain result from a
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program. As mentioned above, this doesn't
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have to confine itself to the world of
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computers. Anyone who's an adventurer or
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explorer of some sort, or any good
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investigative journalist, knows the feeling of
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wanting to do something nobody has ever
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done before or find the answer despite
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being told that you can't. One thing that all
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of the people involved in these endeavors
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seem to share is the feeling from outsiders
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that they're wasting their time.
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4. Are you a hacker? Why? Or why not?
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Absolutely. It's not something you can just
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erase from your personality, nor should you
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want to. Once you lose the desire to mess
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around with things, tweak programs and
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systems, or just pursue an answer doggedly
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until you get a result, you've lost a very
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important part of yourself. It's quite
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possible that many "reformed" hackers will
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lose that special ingredient as they become
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more and more a part of some other entity
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that demands their very souls. But for
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those who can resist this, or figure out a
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way to incorporate "legitimacy" into their
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hacker personalities without compromising
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them, there are some very interesting and
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fun times ahead.
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5. What kind of hacking do you do?
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My main interest has always been phones
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and rarely does a day pass when I don't
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experiment in some way with a phone
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system, voice mail system, pay phone, or
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my own telephone. I've always been
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fascinated by the fact that we're only a
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few buttons away from virtually anyone on
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the planet and I hope that I never lose that
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sense of marvel.
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One of the most amazing things I ever got
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involved in was routing phone calls within
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the network itself -- known as blue-boxing.
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You can't do that as easily any more, but it
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was a real fun way to learn how everything
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was connected -- operators, services,
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countries, you name it. And in the
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not-too-distant past, there were so many
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different sounds phones made depending on
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where you were calling. Now they tend to
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be standardized rings, busies, etc. But the
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magic hasn't disappeared, it's just moved
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on to new things ... satellite technology,
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new phone networks and voice recognition
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technologies.
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Many times these new technologies are
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designed by the very people who were
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hacking the old technologies. The result is
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usually more security and systems that
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know what people will find useful. While I've
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spent a great deal of time playing with
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phones, I get the same sense of fun from
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computer systems and have invested lots
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of time exploring the Internet. It would fill a
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book to outline all of the hacker potential
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that exists out there. And, of course,
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there's radio hacking, which predates a lot
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of the current technology. It's gotten to
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the point where simply listening to a certain
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frequency has become a challenge. It's
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hard to believe that it's actually turned into
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a crime to listen to some of these
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non-scrambled radio waves. But this is the
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price we pay when people with no
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understanding of technology are the ones in
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charge of regulating it.
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6. How much time do you spend at it a week?
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That's like asking how much time you spend
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breathing. It's always with you, you do
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more of it at certain times, but it's always
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something that's going on in your head.
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Even when I sleep, I dream from a hacker
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perspective.
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7. Do you have a certain kind of site or
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"target" sites that most attract you?
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We don't sit around with a big map and a
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list of targets. In fact, we don't even sit
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around together. Most hacking is done by
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individuals who simply find things by
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messing around and making discoveries. We
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share that info and others add input. Then
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someone tells the press and the
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government that we're plotting to move
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satellites and all hell breaks loose.
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I think most of us tend to be drawn to the
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sites and systems that are said to be
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impossible to access. This is a normal
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human reaction to being challenged. The
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very fact that we continue to do this after
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so many of us have suffered so greatly
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indicates that this is a very strong driving
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force. When this finally becomes recognized
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as a positive thing, perhaps we'll really be
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able to learn from each other.
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8. What, in general, do you think attracts
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people to hacking?
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People have always been attracted to
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adventure and exploration. Never before
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have you been able to get this without
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leaving your house and without regard to
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your skin color, religion, sex, or even the
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sound of your voice. On the Internet,
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everyone is an equal until they prove
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themselves to be a moron. And even then,
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you can always start over. It's the ability
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to go anywhere, talk to anyone, and not
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reveal your personal information unless you
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choose to -- or don't know enough not to
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-- that most attracts people to the hacker
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culture, which is slowly becoming the
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Internet culture.
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We find that many "mainstream" people
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share the values of hackers -- the value of
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free speech, the power of the individual
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against the state or the corporation, and
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the overall sense of fun that we embrace.
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Look in any movie where an individual is
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fighting a huge entity, and who does the
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audience without exception identify with?
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Even if the character breaks the rules, most
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people want him/her to succeed because
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the individual is what it's all about.
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9. Do you know enough hackers personally to
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know what personality traits they share, if
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any?
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Hackers come from all different backgrounds
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and have all kinds of lifestyles. They aren't
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the geeks you see on television or the
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cyberterrorists you see in Janet Reno news
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conferences. They range in age from under
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10 to over 70. They exist in all parts of the
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world, and one of the most amazing and
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inspiring things is to see what happens
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when they come together. It's all about
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technology, the thrill of discovery, and
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sharing information. That supersedes any
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personality issues that might be an issue in
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other circumstances.
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10. Do you think hackers are productive and
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serve a useful purpose?
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I think hackers are necessary, and the
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future of technology and society itself
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(freedom, privacy, etc.) hinges on how we
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address the issues today that hackers are
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very much a part of. This can be the
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dawning of a great era. It can also be the
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beginning of true hell.
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11. What percentage would you say are
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destructive as opposed to those in it out of
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intellectual curiosity or to test their skills?
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This raises several points that I feel
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strongly about. For one thing, hacking is
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the only field where the media believes
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anyone who says they're a hacker. Would
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you believe someone who said they were a
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cop? Or a doctor? Or an airline pilot? Odds
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are they'd have to prove their ability at
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some point or say something that obviously
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makes some degree of sense. But you can
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walk up to any reporter and say you're a
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hacker and they will write a story about
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you telling the world that you're exactly
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what you say you are without any real
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proof.
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So every time a movie like "Hackers" comes
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out, 10 million people from AOL send us
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e-mail saying they want to be hackers, too,
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and suddenly, every 12-year-old with this
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sentiment instantly becomes a hacker in
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the eyes of the media and hence, the rest
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of society. You don't become a hacker by
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snapping your fingers. It's not about getting
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easy answers or making free phone calls or
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logging into someone else's computer.
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Hackers "feel" what they do, and it excites
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them.
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I find that if the people around you think
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you're wasting your time but you genuinely
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like what you're doing, you're driven by it,
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and you're relentless in your pursuit, you
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have a good part of a hacker in you. But if
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you're mobbed by people who are looking
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for free phone calls, software or exploits,
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you're just an opportunist, possibly even a
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criminal. We already have words for these
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people and it adequately defines what they
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do. While it's certainly possible to use
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hacking ability to commit a crime, once you
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do this you cease being a hacker and
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commence being a criminal. It's really not a
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hard distinction to make.
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Now, we have a small but vocal group who
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insist on calling anyone they deem
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unacceptable in the hacker world a
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"cracker." This is an attempt to solve the
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problem of the misuse of the word "hacker"
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by simply misusing a new word. It's a very
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misguided, though well-intentioned, effort.
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The main problem is that when you make up
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such a word, no further definition is
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required. When you label someone with a
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word that says they're evil, you never really
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find out what the evil was to begin with.
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Murderer, that's easy. Burglar, embezzler,
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rapist, kidnapper, all pretty clear. Now
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along comes cracker and you don't even
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know what the crime was. It could be
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crashing every computer system in
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Botswana. Or it could be copying a single
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file. We need to avoid the labeling and start
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looking at what we're actually talking
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about. But at the same time, we have to
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remember that you don't become a hacker
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simply because you say you are.
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12. Do people stay in hacking a long time, or
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is it the kind of thing that people do for a few
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years and then move on to something else?
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It can be either. I tend to believe that it's
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more of a philosophy, a way of looking at
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something. When you have the hacker
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perspective, you see potential where others
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don't. Also, hackers think of things like
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phones, computers, pagers, etc., as toys
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and things to be enjoyed whereas others
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see work and responsibility and actually
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come to dread these things. That's why
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hackers like to hold onto their world and not
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become part of the mainstream. But it
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certainly can and does happen.
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13. What is the future of hacking?
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As long as the human spirit is alive, there
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will always be hackers. We may have a hell
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of a fight on our hands if we continue to be
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imprisoned and victimized for exploring, but
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that will do anything but stop us.
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14. Given increased attention to corporate
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and government security, is it getting
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tougher to hack or not?
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Hacking isn't really about success -- it's
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more the process of discovery. Even if real
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security is implemented, there will always
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be new systems, new developments, new
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vulnerabilities. Hackers are always going to
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be necessary to the process and we're not
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easily bored.
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15. Is the possibility of being identified and
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even prosecuted an issue for most hackers?
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Hackers make very bad criminals. This is
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why we always wind up being prosecuted.
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We don't hide very well or keep our mouths
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sealed shut to protect corporate or
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government interests. But the same
|
|||
|
|
security holes would exist even if we
|
|||
|
|
weren't around, so I think the hackers
|
|||
|
|
should be properly seen as messengers.
|
|||
|
|
That doesn't mean that you should expect
|
|||
|
|
them to just hand over all of their
|
|||
|
|
knowledge -- it's important to listen and
|
|||
|
|
interpret on your own, as any hacker
|
|||
|
|
would.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
16. Are there hackers who are up for hire?
|
|||
|
|
What are they paid? Who hires them, and for
|
|||
|
|
what?
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Just as you can use hacker ability to attain
|
|||
|
|
a life of crime, you can use that ability to
|
|||
|
|
become a corporate success. Some are
|
|||
|
|
able to hold onto their hacker ideals.
|
|||
|
|
Others, sadly, lose them. It's especially
|
|||
|
|
hard when young people who haven't
|
|||
|
|
worked it all out yet are approached and
|
|||
|
|
tempted with huge amounts of money by
|
|||
|
|
these entities. It can be very hard to resist
|
|||
|
|
and the cost is often greater than
|
|||
|
|
anticipated.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
17. Have you had any contact with people
|
|||
|
|
you consider cyberterrorists? Do you endorse
|
|||
|
|
what they do?
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
In all of the time I've been in the scene,
|
|||
|
|
which is a pretty long time, I've never come
|
|||
|
|
across anyone I consider to be a
|
|||
|
|
"cyberterrorist," whatever that is. Most
|
|||
|
|
people who talk of such creatures either
|
|||
|
|
have something to sell or some bill to pass.
|
|||
|
|
This is not to say that such a concept is
|
|||
|
|
impossible. But I believe the current
|
|||
|
|
discussions aren't based in reality and have
|
|||
|
|
very suspicious ulterior motives.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
18. What about the people who hack into
|
|||
|
|
Pentagon sites? Do you think they should be
|
|||
|
|
punished?
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
According to the Pentagon, there is no risk
|
|||
|
|
of anything classified being compromised
|
|||
|
|
because it's not on the Internet. If they
|
|||
|
|
were wrong, I would like to see someone
|
|||
|
|
prove that. If a non-classified site is
|
|||
|
|
hacked, I don't see the harm unless
|
|||
|
|
something is damaged in some way.
|
|||
|
|
Remember, the security hole was already
|
|||
|
|
there. If a hacker finds it, it's far more likely
|
|||
|
|
the people running the system will learn of
|
|||
|
|
the hole. If a criminal or someone with an
|
|||
|
|
ulterior motive (espionage, etc.) finds the
|
|||
|
|
hole first, it's likely to remain secret for
|
|||
|
|
much longer and the harm will be far
|
|||
|
|
greater.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
While you may resent the fact that some
|
|||
|
|
14-year-old from Topeka proved your
|
|||
|
|
security sucks, think of what could have
|
|||
|
|
happened had you not learned of this and
|
|||
|
|
had someone else done it instead. I'm the
|
|||
|
|
first to say that people who cause damage
|
|||
|
|
should be punished, but I really don't think
|
|||
|
|
prison should be considered for something
|
|||
|
|
like this unless the offender is a true risk to
|
|||
|
|
society. The great majority of these cases
|
|||
|
|
do not involve damage or vandalism, a fact
|
|||
|
|
that largely goes unreported. What people
|
|||
|
|
have to remember is that most of the time,
|
|||
|
|
this is simply an example of kids being kids
|
|||
|
|
and playing games like they have always
|
|||
|
|
done.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Obviously, the tools have changed, but
|
|||
|
|
that's really not something the kids are
|
|||
|
|
responsible for. If some kid somewhere can
|
|||
|
|
access your medical records or your phone
|
|||
|
|
records, he or she is not the one who put
|
|||
|
|
them there. The true violator of your
|
|||
|
|
privacy is the person who made the
|
|||
|
|
decision to make them easily accessible.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
19. Your real name is Eric Corley. Why do you
|
|||
|
|
use the name Emmanuel Goldstein?
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I believe everyone should be given the
|
|||
|
|
opportunity to name themselves. That
|
|||
|
|
name should reflect something about who
|
|||
|
|
you are and what you believe in and stand
|
|||
|
|
for. Emmanuel Goldstein is that for me, and
|
|||
|
|
for those who want to learn why, get a
|
|||
|
|
copy of George Orwell's "1984" and see for
|
|||
|
|
yourself. Interestingly, our first issue of
|
|||
|
|
2600 was published in January 1984. A
|
|||
|
|
complete coincidence.
|
|||
|
|
|