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2021-04-15 11:31:59 -07:00
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NUMBER OF LINES: 629
1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask....
2 ********************** REMOVED: 6 AUG 83 ****************************
3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator
4 ************************************************************
5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
6 THIS SYSTEM.
7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive
13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
20 use the replace command to replace the line.
21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
23 ========================================
24 To: AI types:
25 As Leonard said, I feel that there are many types of intellegence.
26 As I stated earlier, even a book is intellegent in certain aspects.
27 It is a form of 'fixed' intellegence. That is, intellegence was
28 implanted into it by all the people who put it togerther, the writer,
29 the editor, the proof reader, the typesetter, even the printers and
30 binders. All of this intellegence has been impressed into the book
31 to give it life. What is life, but the ability to replicate to as large
32 a quantity as the enviornment can support? If the the life form is good
33 then it can do this well, if it is bad it dies off. Is this not the same
34 with computers? Why is the IBM and IBM lookalikes becoming so popular?
35 It isn't the 808688 processor in it, that thing nearly died out til IBM
36 graced it with a proper enviorment to grow. There are many aspects that
37 must be considered in the care and feeding of a product. If you leave
38 something important out, like with a plant that you forget to water
39 it will die. In my opinion, even plants have intellegence to a degree.
40 They survive, they multiply, and they interact with their enviornment
41 to maintain that survivability.
42 Perhaps what I am saying, is the very ability to exist defines intelligence!
43 ***** CISTOP MIKEY (MY HEAD HURTS!) ***** 1 AUG 83 ********************
44 ----------------------------------------Aaron, et. al.
45
46 I realized today that what we're actually discussing here
47 is not artificial "intelligence" but artificial "conciousness",
48 there's a great deal of difference in basic definitions here.
49 I know that the literature on this lumps them as one and the same,
50 but I think that that is a basic problem in trying to discuss AI.
51 A definition for intelligence is the "ability to learn or understand or
52 to deal with new or trying situations" ; all of which are well
53 within the scope of the solution
54 set that's available to us.
55 On the other hand conciousness
56 can be defined as "the state of being characterized by sensation,
57 emotion, volition, and thought",
58 a definition that really opens up
59 all the sticky philosophical questions
60 of determination of existence (is it there?), "murder" (can it be
61 turned off?), and does it have rights
62 (is it a sentinent creature?). I'd
63 like some feed back on this because
64 I think it shows a fundemental problem with the semantics used right now
65 to define AI.
66
67 Paul
68 ---------------------------------------- Mickey
69 I think that a book has impressed knowledge rather than impressed
70 intelligence.
71 Paul
72 ---------------------------------------
73 Paul is correct. While a book may have a great deal of knowledge, it has
74 no intelligence. Intelligence is usually defined as the faculty of
75 perceiving and comprehending meaning through the application of knowledge.
76 Knowledge is only information.
77 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
78 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
79 bravo,paul...
80
81 now as to AI,I see a fundemental roadblock in developing such systems
82 (the VonNeuman Bottleneck (correct my sp,if possible)),yet once they
83 are devoloped on a concr. machine,i think there would be little
84 diffuclty in setting up a slower subset on a serial machine.....in other
85 words i dont think were going to get anywhere with the proc power we
86 can amass today..........
87 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<><>
88 OK, so you have rejected my intellegent book postulation. Before we get
89 off of it though One more thing to consider.. does a book have conciousness?
90 Consider that it was said above that learning was indicative of
91 conciousness. Then consider the postulation that a book can learn.
92 How you say? Dig out that heavily used book of yours. Open it. Notice
93 how it opens to the part that you have used the most. Why did it do this?
94 because it 'learned' where you opened it to the most. Does this
95 constitute conciousness given the suggested definition?
96 ****** CISTOP MIKEY (ANYONE HAVE AN ASPRIN?) ***** 2 AUG 83 ***********
97 =========================================
98 If an artificial heart is what you get when your real heart doesn't work...
99 And an artificial kidney is what you get when your real kidney doesn't work ..
100 And an artificial liver is what you get when your real liver doesn't work...
101
102 Theyn what is "Artificial Intelligence"?
103 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
104 =========================================
105 The problem with defining intelligence is that all of us are very
106 familiar with the practical, operative definition: That which people are.
107 It's like defining the color red: Very obvious to anyone, yet it requires a
108 relatively sophisticated scientific knowledge to specify exactly.
109 But consider: When we think of making artificial intelligence, we
110 generally think of making a human-like computer. When and if we ever succeed,
111 might we have finally generated a slow, emotional, bored, excitable, lazy,
112 mechanical brain? In effect, how can you make a man without including all the
113 negative connotations we don't like to associate with ourselves?
114 //////////////////////////////////////////
115
116 Well folks, it finally happened! Sometime last night BWMS went to
117 BBS heaven. It has only recently been resurected this morning.
118 What happened? Well, those of you who have been around awhile
119 are familiar with the problems I have been having with drive A
120 getting very cranky. It seems that last night it finnaly gave up
121 The strange part about it is that it was the logic card that died
122 and it was the mechanics that had been complaining all this time.
123 So anyway, I pulled the backup drive off the shelf and threw it
124 on here. Of course it didn't work! So I dug out the other spare
125 drive that I had not tested since I had just recently got a new
126 logic card for it. It seemed to work Ok, so I put things together
127 to try it out. About 2 minutes later a cloud of smelly smoke rose out
128 of the drive. Arggghhhhhhh! So, not having any more spare drives
129 What you see now is a borrowed drive from the ol' H-8 that whent
130 belly up last year and I never had time to fix.
131 Oh no! it just died again! This doesn't have a very good omen to it.
132 Well I don't have time to do any more, so we'll just cross our fingers
133 and hope it survives. Please bear with us.. BWMS is an ol' cripple that
134 was resurected from junk box parts, so it is ammazing it has run as
135 long as it has already!
136 ***** A VERY WORRYED CISTOP MIKEY ***** 2 AUG 83 ********************
137 Defining intelligence is even worse than defining "red". It is more
138 like trying to define "brown" or maybe "pink". (by the "strict,
139 scientific" definition of color, neither brown nor pink are
140 colors!)
141 ______________________________Leonard_________________________
142 ps we all seem to assume that "people" are "intelligent". Are
143 you really sure about this? Are YOU intelligent? Also, if you
144 are intelligent, do you have to be intelligent ALL THE TIME?
145 Or is possible to be intelligent only some of the time? Or only
146 in certain situations? (I know some people who are "intelligent"
147 but who can be/act very UN-"intelligent" in some situations.
148 For example: using stereotypes instead of observation, in some
149 situations)
150 ________________________________________________________________
151 The standard definition if inteligence requires the "consciousness"
152 mentioned earlier, as it implies action taken in response to stimulus.
153 A book contains data, but cannot act on it; it is not inteligent.
154 The question about turning off an artificial inteligence was not answered
155 by the arguement "it could be in ROM", just sidestepped; if the
156 program was on disc, it could be truned off, and then on again, ROM
157 fails the criterion of learning. However, if the AI is on disc, and I
158 oerwrite it, I destroy it (kill it). Is that murder?
159 We do not expect the AI to act or think human; nor do we expect it to
160 be only on large parallel processors. A serial machine just has to do it's
161 smaller cycles faster. The killer is still memory access: it must be on
162 disc, or equivalent because AI needs so big a program, and discs just aren't
163 fast enough.
164 The current Dr. Dobbs has some thoughts on where we are going.
165 As to what is intelligent: we have no problems with "the spaceship just
166 landed and a 3 headed, green monster stepped out"
167 Now: " and a puddle of green slime oozed out." No part of it is intelligent
168 but all together it is. Do we consider it a "person", or a "nation", or just
169 spray it with weed killer?
170 ///////////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
171 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
172 what does it take,BAD? ARTIFICIALY INTELIGENT SYSTEMS CAN BE BLOWN
173 UP,BURNED,DE-GAUSSED,FRIED, KILLED ,AND IT DOSN'T MATTER!
174 it is the ARTIFICIALY CONSCIOUS systems this applies to....
175 and note:a system can be "intelligent" without being "conscious",
176 AND VICE VERSA!
177 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>hi paul<><><><><><><>Aaron<><><>
178 Poof....the system just went up in smoke....what a pitiful thing
179 to behold....
180 ###########################################################################
181
182 I have been keeping up with you guys above and I totally agree with the person
183 above who says "a system can be intelligent without being concious".
184
185 ###########################################################################
186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
187 I think what the problem is is that we have no scale to measure intel-
188 ligence on. We could compare other forms of intelligence to our own but
189 how do we know what OUR intelligence in.
190
191 Then again, we could say our intelligence was 1 and compare other intel-
192 ligences to that. But how are we going to measure the intelligence of,
193 say, a hamburger? Would we be intelligent compared to a 4-D creature?
194
195 WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF INTELLIGENCE?
196 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
197 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
198 In response to someone's question above about intelligence?
199 The correct definition of artificial intelligence is:
200 Something you get when your intelligence doesn't work!
201 Ha ha giggle giggle snort snort funny funny grin.............
202
203 TRON
204 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
205 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
206 no one out there intrested in my HP-3000/corvus solictation?
207
208 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
209 ++++++++
210
211
213
214 ********************************************************************************
215
216 WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BWMS
217
218 ARE WE NOW MORE INCLINED TO DISCUSS THE CLOSED LOOP CONTROVERSY OF 'CONSCIOUSNESS VS INTELLIGENCE '? .... GET ON WITH IT !
219
220 WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SYNTHESIS OF COMMUNICATION ?
221
222 MOST OF THIS SOPHMORIC DRIVEL WOULD BE BEST
223 ADAPTED FOR LATE NIGHT T.V.
224 !!!! KNOW FROM WHAT YOU SPEAK !!!!
225 !!!! STATE CONJECTURE AS SUCH !!!
226 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
227 NOW.... LETS GET SOME MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION GOING !
228
229 *****************************************************************USER************************************BRENDAN*******
230 ****************************************
231 how could something be conscious without being inteligent?
232 On the other hand, real inteligence probably would also be conscious;
233 but maybe not, however our current best guess is no; nothing we have seen
234 with one lacks the other (not people, I mean animals).
235 Brendan, what do you consider meaningful? Or is the question of what is
236 meaning just over your head? <<Around here you better be able to stick up
237 for your ideas!!>>
238 ////////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
239 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
240 "our" current best guess,I dont seem to remember.......
241 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
242 =========================================<================================
243
244 To the person above.........WE ARE HAVING A MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION
245 GOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
246
247 ==========================================================================
248 ----------------------------------------Aaron and the rest:
249 From the above conversation it looks to me like we are still mixing
250 "intellegence" with "conciousness".
251 "Conciousness" is a result of "a state of BEING", I don't believe you
252 need this to be "intelligent".
253
254 Mickey
255 Anything I can do to help?
256
257 Meaningful Conversation
258 Care to suggest somthing?
259
260 Paul
261 ----------------------------------------This is Paul again ... a bit later ....
262
263 On re-reading the above messages I see that I was at least partially mistaken someone (Aaron?) had followed what I
264 had written earlier.
265
266 I would like to propose that we all
267 mutually agree to limit this con-
268 versation to the "intellegence"
269 portion of the definitions I gave
270 earlier. This is a result of seeing
271 that debate on the "conciousness"
272 portion is really getting to be a
273 loop.
274
275 Anyone agree .... disagree ?
276
277 Maybe just a section of the definition
278 would be better ... how about
279 "an ability to deal with new situations" .....
280
281 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
282 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
283 - I'm still not informed as to the definition of intelligence. My dict -
284 - ionary says that intelligence is the capacity to apprehend facts and -
285 - propositions and their relations and to reason about them. The first -
286 - thing I want to say is: where'd they find that definition? Why would -
287 - not another definition be better? As for consciousness, (back to the -
288 - dictionary...) the state of being characterized by sensation, emo -
289 - tion, volition, and thought. Now let's decode THOSE and see what -
290 - THEY mean! ..................................................Pioneer -
291 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
292 ------------------------------------------
293 Pioneer-
294 Exactly what I was suggesting ...
295 except I was trying to limit the
296 scope somewhat ( your definition by the way is out if the same
297 dictionary I have, mines a little more recent I think ...).
298
299 Would you agree to definition in my message above as a starting place?
300
301 ------------------Paul-------------------------------------------------
302 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
303
304 A bit later ... what happened to all the activity here? Is anybody
305 out there?
306 ----------------------Paul----------------------------------------------
307 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
308 - No need to offend Paul, but I think that your definition was TOO li -
309 - mited. So limited, in fact, that its true meaning faded back into -
310 - obscurity that it was sought out for. After all, "A state of BEING" -
311 - is very obscure and I'm sure the people on this system could raise a -
312 - good argument as to what it really means.....................Pioneer -
313 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
314 Well, BWMS seems to have survived today. I don't know what's going
315 on, so we'll just have to wait and see...
316
317 As I look at the going discussion on intellegence, I see a pattern
318 developing. There appears to be two major concepts involved here.
319 On the one side we have those who attach a fixed point definition
320 to intellegence I.E. "At some point we can define 'this' as
321 intellegent, and 'that' as non-intellegent." And on the other side
322 we have those who consider intellegence to be a variable measurement.
323 I.E. "Everything has some amount of intellegence."
324 I think maybe part of the problem is having these two concepts being
325 batted back and forth without recognizing them for what they are.
326 Perhapps we should settle on one of the concepts for argument's sake,
327 or maybe argue about the validity one one concept over the other?
328 I don't think we will get any where until this difference is realized
329 and a base for the discussion is decided upon.
330 What we really need are words to handle the specific concept we are
331 speeking of rather then trying to fit a more general word to our own
332 concept of what IS.
333 In a way it kind of reminds me of the typical arguement that occurs
334 between a creationist and an evolutionist. The argument is really
335 pointles because they are speaking from two entirly different bases
336 of concept with their own supporting evidence. Neither side can win.
337 ***** CISTOP MIKEY (HOW ABOUT A BUFFERIN?) ***** 2 AUG 83 **********
338 ----------------------------------------Mikey:
339 I agree TOTALLY that the concepts are getting TOO nebulus.Thats why
340 I was trying too split
341 the concepts of intellegence for conciousness, trying for more
342 simplicity of form for discussion.
343 Pioneer, maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough, I was going for
344 the "ability to deal with new or
345 trying situations", ei a mars probe
346 having to deal with a sand storm or
347 a ravine in it's path, NOT a discussion
348 on what constitutes BEING or A STATE OF BEING.
349
350 note: earlier in this msg read ...
351 concepts of intellegence from concious-
352 ness ... sorry
353
354 ---------------------Paul-----------------------------------------
355
356 I vote we get the weed killer and zap that slime-devil!!!!
357 No more cute-looking aliens like you get in Star Wars, E.T., and
358 so on... I wanna see those horrible monsters typical in '50s
359 Martian movies!
360 -----------------------::::::::::::::---------------------------------
361 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
362 - Sorry Paul, I guess I was being obscure. I was using your definition -
363 - of "consciousness" as an example. -
364 - -
365 - While I'm on here, and since I can't think of anything to say about -
366 - A.I., could people please give me some info on the Syquest 100mm -
367 - drives? Most specifically and importantly, I want to know what kind -
368 - of control card it/they use. Thank you everybody. I appreciate it -
369 - very much....................................................Pioneer -
370 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
371 First off, you DON'T need to use disk for AI programs. Not even on
372 Micros. When we've got chips like the 68000 that can DIRECTLY ADDRESS 16 Meg
373 we can use the floppies for storage. On bigger machines, I believe
374 that there are even more ridiculous amounts of "main memory" available! Also
375 with 100 Meg hard disks available........
376 Now, back to the "core" of this argument. I suggest that we adopt the
377 "defintion" of "intelligence" as being something along the lines of the
378 previously mentioned (I am paraphrasing here, NOT qouting!) "ability to find new
379 solutions BASED on previous experience with similar (NOT identical!) problems".
380 For example, if it is "known" that orange peels are not edible
381 then using caution in tasting BANANA peels is intelligent! So is being careful
382 about APPLE peels. (WRONG, but intelligent!). I realize that this example makes
383 it look like I am equating "intelligence" and "logic". To some extent I am. BUT
384 I suspect that there may be more than that to intelligence. Also please note
385 that the "logic" involved is NOT the IF-THEN AND OR NOT NOR etc
386 logic that most programmers are familiar with (sentential [sp?] logic), but
387 SYMBOLIC logic (if all "a" are "b" and "c" is "a" then "c" is "b"). I once in my
388 ignorance, tried writing a program to handle some of my "homework" in symbolic
389 logic - it ain't anywhere NEAR as easy as you would think!
390 I would also request that people make more use of quotation marks to indicate
391 that the qouted word or phrase may not be being used in its "normal" sense. My
392 use of quotes around "intelligence" is an example.
393 By the way, I have yet to see an definition of intelligence on this system that
394 requires an "intelligent being" to be "concious". Except, of course, for the
395 definitions that said "you must be concious to be intelligent.
396 Suggestion: the word 'sentient' seems to mean (more or less) what most of you
397 mean by "concious". It has the DISTINCT advantage of being MORE PRECISE & also
398 of being unfamiliar (thus making it less likely to trip "automatic responses"
399 that may not be appropriate). Though my dictionary seems to disagree, "sapient"
400 is often used as a synonym for "intelligent" (mostly by people
401 trying to sidestep the intelligence/conciousness argument!). I think we might
402 avoid a lot of wasted effort by using these two words. (note: NOW do you see why
403 there are all those "big words" that seem to mean the "same" as more common ones
404 or was all this over your head?)
405 __________________________Leonard______________________________
406 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,(
407
408 Would you run that by one more time?
409
410 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
411 ----------------------------------------------
412 Dr. Sagan was here!!! I will be back!!!
413 +*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*
414 LEONARD:
415 WHY DO SUGGEST THAT LARGER MEMORY CAPACITY OF A COMPUTER IS RIDICULOUS?
416 AS FAR AS THE 68000 GOES, THE ABILITY TO ADDRESS MORE MEMORY IS A PLUS. IT
417 IS OBVIOUS THAT ONE WILL PROBABLY NEVER HAVE THE MONEY TO EXPAND THE COMPUTER
418 BUILT AROUND THAT CHIP FULLY BECAUSE OF THE TRAMENDOUS COST THAT IT WOULD
419 GENERATE. HOWEVER... I MYSELF HAVE RUN OUT OF COMPUTER MEMORY MANY TIMES, EVEN
420 WITH 64K. THE LARGER MEMORY CAPACITY OF MAINFRAME COMPUTERS AND SO ON, DOES
421 NOT MEAN THAT EVERY BYTE (OR WORD) HAS TO BE "MEMORY" EITHER...IT COULD ALSO
422 BE A LOT OF SOPHISTICATED I/O-LIKE DISK DRIVES! IF WE WILL EVER EVEN COME CLOSE
423 TO A.I., IT WILL HAVE TO BE DONE ON A 'VERY' LARGE COMPUTER. ONE OTHER THING,
424 THE FACT THAT SOME COMPUTERS CAN HANDLE MORE MEMORY ALSO IMPLIES THAT IT MUCH
425 FASTER AT GETTING INFO FROM THE MEMORY THAN A SMALLER, 8/16 BIT MICRO.
426
427
428 AND...TO THE PERSON THAT WANTS TO START A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE HP-3000 AND
429 CORVUS SYSTEMS...GO RIGHT AHEAD, I HAVE BEEN USING BOTH FOR OVER A YEAR!
430
431 IN CONCLUSION, I THINK THAT "INTELLIGENCE" IS MORE THAN ANYONE HAS EVEN COME
432 CLOSE TO SAYING. WHAT ABOUT CONSIOUS AND THE SUBCONSIOUS PARTS OF OUR OWN
433 "INTELLIGENCE". I BELIEVE THAT IN ORDER TO CONTINUE THE DISCUSSION ON
434 "INTELLIGENCE", WE NEED TO LOOK MORE AT JUST WHAT "WE" ARE. THE UNDERSTANDING
435 OF OUR OWN MINDS IS THE FIRST STEP TO ACHIEVING ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.
436
437 THE SYSM...TRYING TO HELP (I THINK).
438 +*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*
439 let's stay away from "what we are" for awhile, it's much too B I G ! ! !
440 If we go for Mike's point that inteligence is a range, rather than a state,
441 we can say that we are making computers with some inteligence; I think the
442 quoted figure is somewhere between the smarts of an insect and a mouse so far.
443 What (some of us are talking about is something smart enough that "anybody"
444 would recognoze it as "smart" or in other words, about as smart as a person.
445 Say something we could hold a conversation with (that is something that
446 could handle a vague question, and give a reasonable answer). It won't
447 run on symbolic logic, at leat not only; it must be able to generalize, and
448 must have access to a lot of "background" data. Your 68000 with full boat
449 memory just won't cut it: the going estimates for human memory run from
450 a few tens to a few 100,000 times ore than any computer can access, and that
451 puts you way beyond any micro, mini, or even most big mainframes. Or, in
452 numbers, a few 10's to a few 1000,s or so billions of bytes. We don't
453 remember in bytes, though, so it's hard to compare. Start with "it looks
454 like your bedroom", and if you can describe what your bedroom looks like, so
455 it can be used in a comparison. We do it all the time, instantly.
456 In a more limited world, we have the beginnings of "expert systems" which in
457 a suitably limited field can perform as well as a human, but what makes these
458 work is defining their world sufficiently small, and few if any can really
459 learn by themselves, their programs are adjusted externally.
460 The Mars rover need not have AI to deal with a rock or crevasse, that would
461 be programmed in; but what does it do with a road sign? Or ?? With some AI
462 it would at least notice it, not go around it. Change "would" to "might".
463 A human would notice the sign was not in the book and report it.
464 ////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
465 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
466 A VAX computer having about 9 or 10 gigabytes might possibly,
467 with the right amount of programming, be able to do the same as
468 a 5 year-old child.
469
470 I have a friend in which I told him about the Hayes smart-
471 modem. He very appallingly snapped "An inatimate object can't
472 be smart". Well, then, you'd agree that a Hayes modem is smarter
473 than a hamburger. He referrs to anything not living as "logic-
474 seeking" if it preforms a good task.
475
476 In contrast between a rock. Humans are VERY smart.
477 In contrast between a dog. Humans are VERY smart.
478 In contrast between a cow. Humans are QUITE smart.
479 In contrast between a killer whale. Humans are PRETTY smart.
480 In contrast between humans, they are equal.
481
482 TRON
483 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
484 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
485 since I originaly solictited this conversation from you,Paul,
486 I will wait until you make a statement addressed to me on the topic
487 you would like to follow (in AI)...I think we have digressed a bit,and
488 since I had the intention of conversing with you,I think we should be
489 on the same track....
490 <><><>
491 sysm......
492 why wont my BUILD reliably work as a prog file? sl binding errors
493 are plaguing me,how do i specify the SL i want to use,i know how
494 to use the ;LIB P,G,S ,yet these only address the USL's (i think)
495
496 do you have experience on a 33/30 or a III,mpe c or else wise?
497
498 do you have a com line? if so i could DS/3000 you my files...
499 as to the corvus,are you using OMNINET,or the other one?
500
501 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>Aaron<><><><><><><><><>>
502 Okay you sleepy heads, wake up! I know you're
503 out there! I can hear you breathing!
504 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
505 Has anyone tried (or succeeded) in multiple processing on a
506 single processing computer?
507
508 TRTON
509 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
510 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
511 many times....
512 multiprocessing or multiprograming?
513 (do both)
514 Aaron
515 <><><><><><><><><><>hi kim<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
516
517
518 FOR SALE for cash or trade: clean, pretty 1973 Honda CL 350
519 with two helmets, windscreen, luggage rack, tools. 13,000 mi.
520 Call 236-xxxx voice for Dave to arrange viewing, riding, haggling!
521 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
522 ***************************************************************
523 3 AUG 83
524 * The Hoodview Amateur Radio Club will hold it's first
525 * Hamfair/Computer show Aug 27 & 28 at the MT.Hood Community
526 College. The hours will be 9-6 sat, 9-3 sun. There will be
527 A two dollar admission charge,12 and under free. Swap tables
528 will be available for radio and computer items (only please)
529 For more information, please send a SASE to Hamfair "83"
530 Portland, OR 97220.
531 **************************************Bob*********************
532 ----------------------------------------Aaron:
533 There's been a lot of definitions floating around here, so at this
534 point I can't say if we are on the same track.
535 We've been through about all the semantic interpretations you could
536 have on this one and the only one
537 that I've seen that makes any sense for discussion ended up para-
538 phrasing E. Rich's "AI is the study of how to make computer's do things
539 at which, at the moment, people are better". Seems to me to be about
540 the only middle ground here.
541
542 Paul
543 -----------------------------------------------------------
544
545
546 There's one little definition that all of you have been missing:
547 Intelligence is the ability to SELF-PROGRAM (ie: set one's own goals)
548 By this standard, you would see that there is a range of intelligence,
549 with Humans by far having the most, and Computers having none at all!
550 --------Grey Ghost-----------------------------------------
551 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
552 what do you (paul) think will be among the first uses
553 of this ill-defined technology (AI)?
554 <><><><>
555 where are you sysm????
556 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>Aaron<><><>
557 ----------------------------------------Aaron:
558 The answer that came to me first from your question would make
559 it space exploration.
560 Kinda pat, I know, but I quess
561 I'm a little punchy from the three
562 day loop we've been in.
563 Anyway, that's a direction I can definately see the utilization of
564 AI going in. Would require a "practical size" box for the whole thing, and
565 enough speed in the processor/software
566 to make it in real time.
567
568 Paul
569 -----------------------------------------------------
570 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
571 space exploration?
572 let me present a scenario..
573 your country spends 100 million puting together a mars probe...
574 and you,paul,are in charge of selecting the guidence system...
575
576 proposals:
577 1) tradition nav computer....nothing newm,it works...
578 2) AI nav computer,that could decide to swing by mercury
579 because there is a rock between it and mars....
580 which would you choose?
581 Aaron
582 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
583 ----------------------------------------Aaron:
584 I quess that would depend on how much confidence I had in the box
585 (how it performed in simulations,
586 if the mission it was expected to
587 perform was within the area of its
588 capabilities), and if the cost for
589 the box (I'm assuming the AI box is
590 more expensive) was justified by the
591 mission.
592
593 Paul
594
595 --------------------------------------------------
596
597
598 Paul,you are way off base in saying the first use WILL BE in space; AI
599 is already alive and working in doctors offices, DEC supply rooms, and
600 at IBM design plants; the friendly Japanese aren't saying much about what
601 they do with it. (Bell labs are pretty close mouthed so far, too.)
602
603 Who says brown isn't a color? Again, semantic problems, I fear. We describe
604 colors by a combination of 3 variables e.g. hue (blue, red, etc) in color
605 tv described by chroma phase;brightness by reducing video carrier levels;
606 and saturation by chroma increasing carrier. An artist or pigment scietist
607 describes it as variable absorbtions by pigments, or it can be 3 levels
608 of red,green, and blue light. Brown is not a hue, but it is a defined color.
609 The visual effects of nuetral colors like brown are much more affected by
610 the surround, but this does not make them less real. Color is more than hue.
611 /////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
612 ----------------------------------------Bad:
613 I have grown VERY weary of defining this thing to death, I also believe that
614 the person that I directed my comment to feels the same way.
615 The group conversation so far has presented some useful ideas, but
616 this can only be carried so
617 far till the usefulness reaches
618 the "point of deminishing returns".
619 Your comments on my missing the point, the semantics of color and its
620 ramifications on the semantics of
621 this discussion on AI are noted.
622 I don't really what to deal on these
623 terms any longer, thet are ,for me
624 , getting no where. If you wish to
625 enter the discussion at its present
626 point feel free to do so, but let's
627 get on with it and not semantics.
628 INTELLIGENCE IS THAT QUALITY WHICH ALL THE PREVIOUS MESSAGES SEEM TO
629 LACK >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>THE CEREBRAL ONE<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<