textfiles/messages/BACKWATER/bw821222.txt

NUMBER OF LINES: 629 
1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask.
2 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System)  Mike Day System operator
3 ********************* REMOVED: 22 DEC 82 ********************************
4 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON
5                     THIS SYSTEM.
6 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned
7 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public.
8 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system.
9 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and
10 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the
11 right to remove any and all messages from the system which are offensive
12 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be
13 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved)
14 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on
15 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'.
16 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out
17 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored.
18 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake,
19 use the replace command to replace the line.
20 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up.
21 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system.
22 ========================================
23 SORRY I TOOK SO LONG IN GETTING A NEW DISK HERE, I WAS A BIT BUSY
24 **** CISTOP MIKEY ****** 5 DEC 82 *******************************:
25 (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
26 Happiness is a blank disk, ready to be filled with all sorts of worthless
27 nonsense.  Away we go.....................
28 *********(((((((((((()))))))))))({({({({({({({({({({({)[99)))))))))
29 
30 QUESTION: WHAT DOES A GUY WITH 3+ YEARS 
31 
32 OF COLLEGE IN MATH & PHYSICS DO TO GET I
33 NTERESTING WORK?
34 WE ALL GIVE UP....WHAT??
35 PROBABLY ENTER THE GOVERNMENT!
36 AS FOR WORTHLESS INFORMATION I QUESTION YOU!
37 INTERESTING, NONETHELESS...
38           RICK
39 **==**==**==**==**=<**==**==**
43 THERE IS something that intimidates on a blank page or a blank disk.
44 No signposts.  No comforting phrases behind which to hide.  All of
45 your ignorance is exposed for all to witness.  
46 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
47 Just saw a great TV ad.  As I recall, it was for the Commodore VIC
48 20.   They were 'Thanking all of the  other computer manufacturers,
49 especially Apple and Atari, for preparing the world for the next
50 step: Real Computers'
51 
52 Come to think of it, I reservedly agree.
53 ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
54 ***********************************************************
55 
56 
57 
66 WELL, HERE WE GO AGAIN. Anotnother fine mess you've got me 
67 into.  Why do all you you   'TYPES' get so hung up on
68 what kind of machine each person has or if one is better
69 than the next....
70  
71 If you  'TYPES'  went out today bought a machine for
72 lets say 2 grand.....next year at this time we all would
73 be saying  " why'd you buy that thing?  This is better that
74 and it does this yours can't " .  
75  
76 But then again, who cares.......lets tax all fringe b
77 benifits, employment insurance, workers comp., and
78 the very breath you bbrbreathe.
79 
83 ***********************************************************
85 Remember the good ol days when we used to yap about 
86 how many "cubes".sat under the hood?  Seem s that the
87 same holds true for these toys that we have these 
88 days, only now it's bits&bytes etc. sigh.............
89 them was the good ol days
90 yOU HA6R
99 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
100 A comparison with the auto industry is appropriate here, since that
101 is a relatively old industry that most of us deal with.  If a person
102 were to buy a car that could only go 25 MPH, had a 1 gallon fuel
103 tank, and cost 20,000, we would rightly conclude he was stupid.  But
104 if someone buys a computer that can only store 90k per disk, with
105 very slow disks at that, with almost no software compatibility with
106 different types of computers, we say he bought an Apple.
107  The fact is, there ARE serious deficiencies in many computers
108 sold today.  However, the average computer buyer is far less familiar
109 with what he SHOULD be getting for his money than the average car
110 buyer.  That's because most computer buyers have never owned a
111 computer before.  So he will go out and buy a computer that, while
112 not totally useless, might be totally unsuitable for his purposes.
113 In 20 years or so, everyone will know what to expect from a computer,
114 and deficient machines will be roundly rejected.
115  An acceptable computer is designed for speed, has an adequate
116 amount of storage per disk, (>= 250k bytes), is software-compatible
117 with at least a few other computers, with a cost appropriate to its
118 performance.  That's not all the criteria, but it's a good start.
119 Personally, I'd be suspicious of anything designed before 1979 if
120 you buy it new.  Why?  It may work, but clearly cannot have taken
121 advantage of a lot of the new chips available.  
122  The IBM PC fails one of the tests above: Storage per disk, at
123 least without the double-sided disk controller, but otherwise seems
124 ok.  Keep in mind that only one year after its introduction perhaps
125 hundreds of companies are working on add-on products for it.
126  If you want to buy a game-playing computer, go ahead.  But be 
127 willing to admit it.  Too many people seem to think that if it has
128 a keyboard, a video display, and disks it is an equally valid computer
129 compared to all the others.  Not necessarily.
130  STrue, almost any computer is better than no computer at all.
131 But any computer which, these days, is advertised on this basis is
132 suspect.  The question is 'what is best for the money.'   There are
133 good computers and bad computers.  Don't ever forget it.
134 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
135   Why anyone who wastes their time on this system would worry about
136 speed, efficiency, or the latest in LSI is beyond my understanding.
137 Retreating to the auto analogy, if you drive only in a residential
138 area, why do you need a car that can go more than 25 mph?
139 And furthermore, how can a computer be any good if the modem
140 costs more than the main CPU box?  I know what's in a modem.  Who
141 is kidding whom...
142 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
143    Government Furnished Equipment:  Have you got your wife loose of
144 the game programs yet.  (And you thought she would keep recipe` files!
145 {}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}
146 I had the interesting(?) task of helping a friend shop for a
147 MINIMAL system for her son. Then came the REAL fun! Have you
148 ever tried to explain to a novice:
149 1. Why can't/shouldn't I buy _______ (cheap computer) for
150    business. (databases, billing records, etc)
151 2. Why does a "useful" (for the above) system cost so much if
152    IC chips are so cheap?
153 3. Why is software so expensive?
154 4. Why isn't there any software for MY application?!
155 
156      It went on past this (considerably!) but you get the idea.
157 I deliberately left out system names because they are irrelevant
158 to the questions. If anyone does have some GOOD answers, I'd be
159 interested in hearing them!
160 ................................................................
161 I think I understand the gentlemans opinion above.  Trying to
162 explain computers and all their fun to novices is sometimes
163 an enjoyable pain!  Software for HER application is the big one.
164 Nobody ever has the software someone really wants...but after
165 all, why are their us programmers around anyway!  For Sure.
166                  =RICK=
167 **==**==**==**==**==**==**==**==
168 Hey Rick.....
169 
170 Yes, I do still use the system, but for other reasons now.
171 I mainly use it for my PASCAL and RPG work.  The reason ACU
172 is not up this year is because I use to spend TOO MUCH of my
173 time on it, and not enough on my school work, when my grades
174 slipped, I decided it wasn't really worth it.  And besides,
175 everytime something happend on the system "IT WAS ALL TOM'S
176 FAULT".  I just got sick of everyone blaming anything on me.
177 It just got to the point that "TOM IS GUILTY UNLESS HE CAN
178 PROVE DIFFERAENTLY." (And that didn't always remove all doubt.
179 
180 So, I erased it from both the system, and my own backup files.
181 
182 The only communications I keep now is with Gary of [103,4]
183 (and that is usaily very seldom).
184 
185 ACU is now in my past, it was fun at sometimes, then others
186 not so.
187 
188 
189 I'm sure that we will not be the last to use the system as
190 a communications media, we were not the first (rumor has it
191 that that type of thing was going on long before we ever
192 heared of the word computer (Gary's brother use to do the
193 same type of thing 10-15 years ago, not the same system of
194 course)).  But I think we were probably the worst problems
195 yet.  There will never be another as good as ACU or INCC.
196 
197 Well, I'll be talking to you....  It's time for me to go,
198 I got company comming over..
199 
200    Tom
201 
202    ***
203 
204 =|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|
205 Of course, on the other hand, some computer companies
206 sell their equiptment as being suited for a specific
207 application when really it is a general purpose machine.
208 Perhaps like painting a car a dowdy color and selling
209 it to little old ladies when really it is a hot-rod.
210 **********************************************************
211 On the backhand most computer applications are application 
212 specific and not general purpose. Although there are always
213 exceptions, generally a computer used in accounting is used
214 for accounting and not software development machine control
215 or playing games. This may seem inefficient, amd wastfull of
216 machine resorces, but it is the way things are, and generally
217 the work out better that way..
218 *** CISTOP MIKEY (PREPARING FOR SLANDER TO HIT AGAIN) *** 8 DEC 82
219 Yesw, my computer is considered obsolete, however, it works, and even
220 if the discs aren't 10 meg each (why beg the question, if 100 k is too
221 small, so 250 k.) They seem to hold enough for most uses. More is always
222 better?? The reason a general purpose computer is used even for very
223 specific purposes, is because irt is cheaper. The days a unique designs
224 is over. A general purpose computer will do the job, with only the soft
225 ware changed. Even updates are easy. It does make sense to use a much
226 more powerful processer for a minor job. Here at work we use a 32 bit
227 high speed processor just to run the disc system for a 24 bit computer.
228 It's cheaper than the corresponding specially made hard wired equivalent.
229 The reason the Apple is still a very good choice is that even with Apple's
230 attempts to foul it upo, it is very much the best supported machine ever.
231 As to discs, until; you need more, theirs are enough, and then you need 
232 more than the small jump to say 250k. The software is still the hardest
233 part of the machine to get, and the most expensive. It may be getting
234 cheaper, but isn't there yet. (Hurrah for JRT).
235 .......................................B.A.D...........12-8-82:2352........
236 I saw a question on another BBS about where to get real business software
237 (payroll) for an Atari this person had just bought (..real good buy)
238 Seems my answer touched a sore spot with someone: Take it back to the 
239 salesman who sold it to you, and cram it up you-know-where, sideways.
240 Then go into the software market to find and buy a real payroll package.
241 Once you have such a package (it will cost more than the computer you
242 just crammed) ask the next question: what will this thing run on?
243 At this point, you have a valid reason to buy some hardware. This also
244 will probably cost more than the ... . The atari might be able to do what
245 you want, if the software existed, but I doubt it does. Payroll programs
246 that work are big, expensive, complicated programs. They have to be 
247 absolutely correct, totally error free; account for every possible
248 and some not-so-pos eventuality; obey a lot of laws;agree with your
249 existing pay method (unless you are willing to redo more than the usual
250 union contract( if any) will allow); be easily and accurately changable
251 when laws, etc change. This ain't easy, but is done. The first criterion
252 is by far the most important, just try explaining why somebody must pay
253 extra money back, or got missed on the overtime he put in. errors are
254 expensive: try telling the IRS or the accountant (very expensive) who has
255 to clean up the mess, that it was just a little computer error.
256 Unfortunately most cheap machines have only cheap software available.
257 The software is the thing; most hardware differs less. 
258 If you wondered why the previous message mentioned using a 32 bit processor
259 as an add-on to a 24 bit machine, rather than replace the whole thing,
260 (the 32 is a lot more powerful) the reason is the same: software. What
261 does a couple of megawords of tightly coded, time dependent, fully debugged
262 code cost, both in money and time? It's a LOT more than the machine cost.
263 No, not 2M of source, 2 Meg of 24 bit object. In fact the 24 bit machine
264 emulates a large portion of the code written for a 1966'ish 23 bit machine.
265 If it works, use it, then if necessary figure out how to work around the
266 weak spots. Hardware, on the other hand is cheap, because it is universal.
267 ..................................still ranting......B.A.D.............
268 **==**==**==**==**==**==**==
269 
270 TOM...
271 
272 Yep, we had our years...BAD years at that.  Oh well, the world is left to
273 be conquered.  You got to admit it was a blast most of the time...we should
274 break into the system one last time this year...and just leave it hanging
275 there...  Oh well, I think we had the best timesharing media wars that
276 that system had ever seen(or any other close ones.)  We put a lot of hours
277 into those programs.  How stupid could we get?  HA-HA.  Oh well, school
278 time and programming time too.  Catch ya on the other side sometime.
279 Are you taking English...you still spell terrible...
280                                =Rick=
281  
282 **==**==**==**==**==**==**==**
283 Dear B.A.D.
284 Payroll software for the Atari is available - check in COMPUTE!
285 There is no reason to buy a 40 passenger bus to take two kids to school,
286 nor is there reason to buy a 32-bit computer and 10meg of OBJ
287 to handle the payroll for six people.
288 I don't know why you hate Atari - probably you bought some other
289 turkey and can't afford to get one now.
290 One problem I see with some programmers: they forget the 
291 basic rule = KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID!
292 Atari has made great progress in making there machine easy
293 for beginners to use, yet it is at heart a very complex machine
294 worthy of the programmers efforts. Further, Atari is selling
295 a lot of these machines to people who don't know how to
296 program and will probably not learn much- they'll BUY the
297 programs that programmers like me (but not you) write.
298 ***************************************************************
299 Someone earlier was talking about speed.
300 I don't know about your machine bu mine mostly just sits
301 there waiting for me to input something.
302 What is fast to me is extremely slow to the machine.
303 Nowhere is this fact pointed up more than in Real-time programming --
304 especially for Graphics. That is the one place that I can really
305 precieve the speed of the machine -- andin Graphics,
306 the Atari is champ!!! (excluding those graphics machines costing
307 more than $5000).
308 Apparent speed is not only in the hardware, it is also in 
309 the programming of that hardware. Running 20K of program
310 is going to take less time than running the same program
311 in 10Meg.
312 I started out with a 1K machine -- getting any kind of BASIC
313 program to run in 1K is a real achievement -- not so
314 in some of your Gigabyte memory machines.
315 I have remembered my early lessons and frequently
316 reprogram other's efforts for substantial memory savings
317 (as well as cleaner code, FASTER EXECUTION, more whistles and bells).
318 I could go on, but this should be enough to set you off.
319 \+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+
320 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
321 As much as I might normally hate to admit it, IBM has made
322 a pretty good machine.  Besides, I just saw an ad for a 
323 512K memory board for the PC (with a serial port, no less!)
324 for $570.00!!!!!!   That's the price of a good 64k static
325 board for the S-100, and close to the price of RAM for Atari
326 and Apple (64k).  The momentum's clearly with IBM.  So many
327 companies are supporting the IBM PC that it will probably
328 force some programmers to re-think their plans.
329  Perhaps more important is that future computers will
330 be built using the IAPX 186 and 286 that are upward-compatible
331 with the PC.  NO such upgrade path is even possible with pple:
332 No-one has made an upward compatible processor to the 6502.
333 It seems to be a dead-end machine.
334  Just saw a new computer, called a Syscom.  In effect,
335 an Apple 2, but costs $850.  Versus $1350 for Apple.  Who
336 does Apple think they're kidding?
337 
338 ==========================================================
339 
340 Boy the big Atari guy is such a big man! He is a big programmer and he
341 writes so much stuff for that all powerful machine of his. He's made so
342 much money selling software for the atari. We all stand in awe at this
343 total lack of humility. Most of the bragging this jerk does comes through
344 pretty shaky grounds. And I don't have a machine I am sorry I bought, any
345 time you wanta race bud, let me know, I'll enjoy wiping the pavement
346 with player-missle graphics
347 
348 **==**==**==**==**==
349 What ever happened to FRIENDLY conversation??  Wow!  Now we really
350 have computer wars.  I think Apple thinks their kidding the world
351 with a high price and then tring to sue everyone who has a similar
352 computer.  No luck Apple.  The Apple Bill might even go down.  You
353 shouldn't have tried to conquer the market.  A lot of this has to
354 do with programmer preferance also.  Some want quick execution, others
355 with good graphics...and the list continues.  I think the world should
356 invest in Timex-Sinclair...HA-HA!
357                         The man tried...
358                                 Rick
359 **==**==**==**==**==**==**==**==**==**==
360 TRYING OUT OSBORNE DOUBLE DENSITY WITH HAYS SMART MODEM AND MICROLINK. 
361 USING THIS SCREEN WITH WRAP AROUND, SOMETIMES GET NEXT LINE WRITING OVER
362 AN EXISTING LINE ---- NEED SOME IDEAS --MYFIND WORD "OSDOUG"
363 ************************************************
364 EXIT
365 64K RAM for Atari can be had for less than $250
366 *******************************************************
367 Dear B.A.D. (or whoever):
368 Back when you first started badmouthing the Atari, did it
369 possibly occur to you that the messages that caused your
370 adverse reaction were directed at other Atari Owners?
371 If you will read my past messages carefully, you will
372 note that I have not claimed to have written a lot of
373 software and made a lot of money, rather that that possibility
374 exists for me and other Atari owners - to a greater extent
375 than for many other computers. That same potential also
376 exists for the Timex-Sinclair. There will be a VERY LARGE 
377 market for Timex-sinclair software authors.
378 Perhaps it's beyond you, but some simple mathematics proves my
379 point: If Timex-Sinclair sells 50,000 units per week (which
380 I understand they have), then in ONE YEAR'S time there are
381 more than 2.5 Million units out there and a correspondingly
382 large market for any software you might write. If you were able to
383 sell your program to just half of the Timex-Sinclair owners,
384 and made only $2 each sale in royalties.....
385 Do I really need say more?
386 My point (in case you missed it), Is that the Atari
387 will be enjoying similar volume with a better machine.
388 ************************************************************
389 Regarding your comment several msgs back, that programmers should
390 "Keep It Simple, Stupid". That doesn't work too well when you are
391 programming for something like payroll. Unlike game programming,
392 you can't always do it YOUR way. You have to follow government
393 regulations and "proper accounting practice" (ie do it the way
394 the head of the accounting department wants!). This can make
395 even a "simple" payroll program for a small number of employees
396 unreasonably complicated. Other business applications have
397 similar restrictions/complications. 
398  A programming "problem" that I wish could be solved is
399 machine compatibility. In most cases, the INTERNAL hardware 
400 (especially for high level languages) is fairly transparent.
401 But why isn't there a "standard" keyboard/disk format/etc.
402  For keyboards, the letter keys are always in the the
403 same place, but punctuation drifts around and special/control
404 keys are all over the place! A little more standardization 
405 couldn't hurt. For instance, the IBM PC keyboard seems to cause
406 trouble because they moved "standard" keys out and put special
407 keys in (shift etc). And I don't think anyone will forget the
408 Apple II reset! I'm not saying that all keyboards should have
409 all the keys, but all the keys that two keyboards have in common
410 should be in the same places!
411  For disks, a standard for 5 1/4 disks would be nice.
412 Say a single density, 35 track standard. This would be a MINIMUM
413 standard, in other words all machine could read/write these
414 "standard format" disks, even if they normally used other formats.
415 (8 inch disks already have a "standard")
416  Anybody else have any ideas on standards or how to
417 convince manufacturers that they'd be a good idea?
418 ................................................................
419   I'm afraid that most manufacturers aren't really interested in standards.
420 They only help out the little guy who is trying to grab a small piece of
421 the market.  For the big guys with lots of marketing clout, it is certainly
422 to their advantage to make it so different that no one else has anything
423 that will come close to it.  IBM has used this trick for years.  Sure,
424 there are the PCM's, and many of them make a good living, but by comparison,
425 they are like fleas to a great dane.
426   I hear that Apple is trying the same tricks.  I read that they are 
427 developing a new double sided disk drive that has the two heads on
428 opposite sides.  By this I mean that the top head is on the right and
429 the bottom head is on the left.  It's not that there might not be some
430 esoteric technical advantages to this, but it sure smacks of proprietary
431 secrets to me.  That's about as far away from a standard (albeit defacto)
432 as you can get!
433 {}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}
434 Speaking of stupid things Apple has been up to recently, it seems that
435 they are working on a 800k byte minifloppy.  The problem is, they use
436 a constant Bits-Per-Inch value.  In case you can't figure it out, this
437 means that they change the rotational speed of the disk depending on
438 which track the head is stepped to.   This is a clear attempt to make
439 a disk drive/format  that only someone with the size of IBM would care
440 to try to duplicate. (but even IBM wouldn't be stupid enough to try)
441  Apple wants to sell overpriced hardware.  Example: the Apple 2.
442 Another example:  Disk drives for the Apple 2.  Not only have many
443 other computer manfacturers produced better computers, now some
444 upstarts have duplicated the Apple 2 and its disk drives.  So Apple
445 is being hit where it really hurts.
446  Owning an Apple is its own punishment.
447 ======================================================================
448 Another note on the Apple drives (new ones) they indicated that the reason
449 that they went to the split head approach was because of all the problems
450 that the current dual head arangment has with disk wear and such. Gee, I 
451 wonder what rock they've been hidding under? The disk wear problem was
452 solved over 3 years ago with new head designs which allowed the head to
453 land on the disk without chewing it up (or in Tandons case throwing out
454 the head load mechanisim entirly thereby leaving the head loaded all of
455 the time thus not having to worry about the heads crashing into the disk
456 instead they get to worry about the friction generated by the heads
457 always being loaded. To be fair, this is generally not a problem since
458 mmost computers shut the drives down when not in use.) One interesting
459 side note is that Apple said that they were not going to do double tracking
460 on their drive because it is not possible to do double traking reliably
461 with existing hardware. (Gee I wonder what they think of the dozen or
462 so disk drive manufactures out there that are producing the double tracking
463 drives?) Knowing whats involved in head alignment in a disk drive, I 
464 think what really happened is that they found they couldn't do it with
465 their split head aproach (It is nearly impossible to do it with the
466 normal aproach as it is!) For their own sake, I hope they had smarts
467 enough to drive the heads with two seperate steppers,and don't try to
468 drivve the heads from a single stepper. If they drive it from a single
469 stepper the drive reliablity will make Mircopolis drives look like they
470 never have problems.
471 *** THE EVER RAVING CISTOP MIKEY ***** 11 DEC 82 *******************
472 _._. __._ _._. __._ _.. _.._     
473 The 
474 Great Flying Eagle sez"golly gee batman" the last few enteries
475 have been rather interesting, never know what a person will learn
476 by listening "in" so to speak.  I just wonder if I can win 
477 a race doing 0-150 mbytes in < 40ms, or am I using an old 
478 "beater" that is long over the hill.......the coupon person
479 wants to know if the coathanger L wants to try some new games
480 <<<<<<>>>>><<<<<>>>>><<<<<>>>><<<<<<>>>><<<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>>
481                            .... .. !
482 gobs of floating excrement?
483 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
484 ***************************************************************
485 To Atari People:
486 Am writing a Wedge, what kind of new commands
487 would you like added to your BASIC??
488 For sure will have:
489    MiniDOS
490    SlowLISTer
491 What else would you like?
492 **************************************************************
493    
494            Portland Computer Society Meeting
495              Saturday, December 18, 1982    1:00 pm.
496 Documentary on personal computing by KOIN TV newsman
497 Mark Sanchez will be shown.  It was very well done
498 and covers some amazing areas of personal computer
499 use.
500  
501 Mr. Sanchez will speak to us on how this documentary
502 was made and how it affected him personally.  Every-
503 one with an interest in personal computing invited.
504  
505           Far West Federal Savings Community room
506           Raleigh Hills Branch
507           Fred Meyer Shopping Center
508           Beaverton Hillsdale Highway
509         (January meeting: "Computer Aided Prosthetic Devices")
510  
511 **************************************************************
512 I more or less quote Jerry Pournelle:
513 IBM is going to lose a lot of customers because you can't
514 type reliably on a PC if you also use a Selectric (andvice-
515 versa.
516 
517 I think that he has a DEFINITE point! All typwriters are
518 standardized, so that people won't have to re-learn typing every
519 time they change machines. Eventually computer manfacturers will
520 have to standardize too. Unfortunately, this may not happen this
521 side of 2001!
522 ................................................................
523 TO: He who entered the meeting notice a message back.
524 I found a lot of control charactors in your message (^I, ^W, and a ^Z).
525 I rubbed them out.
526 I hope they weren't important....
527 FROM: the Phantom Glitch
528 TIME: 17:45 12/12/82
529 ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^
530 Rick,
531 
532 Yes, you are right, my speeling is still terrable.  When would
533 you like to crash the system?  How about changing all the
534 passwords? Or, the grades? It all sounds like fun to me....
535 We would need a password for a PRIV account first (or have you
536 got one?).  There might be a slim chance that I could get one,
537 but I doubt it.
538 
539 
540                         Tom
541                        =:*:=
542 ***===***===
543 TOM,
544 PASSWORD-?? MAYBE ??
545 I'L\ GET BACK LATER ON THAT.
546 MAYBE THERE IS OTHER WAYS...
547  ``   RICK
548 ***=9*
549 TO P.G.    FM: CISTOP MIKEY   RE: PREVIOUS MSG WITH CTRL CHARS
550 JUST TALKED TO NEAL, HE SAID THANKS FOR CLEANING THE MSG, HE WAS
551 NOT AWARE OF THE CTRL CHARS IN IT. APPARENTLY HE HAD A BAD PHONE LINE
552 AND WAS HAVING GREAT DIFFICULTY GETTING THE MSG ON TO BEGIN WITH.
553 ***************************************************
554 P.S. WHEN WILL WE EVER GET THIS MESS CLEANED UP?? ARGGHHHHHHHHH!!!
555 ---------------------------------------------------------
556    I am well aware that there is software for the Atari, as well as 
557 many other machines. Payrolls, however, are not simple programs, and
558 as such, the good ones usually run on fairly large machines. For a 
559 small company the best way is still by hand, using a pocket calculator
560 and tax tables. I am NOT bad-mouthing Atari, it's a good machine for
561 what it was made for. My point, which was obviously missed, is that the
562 hardware is a lot more interchangeable, and cheaper, than GOOD software.
563 It is also much easier to find. More money is made writing games than
564 all other software put together, but this has nothing to do with better,
565 only with a bigger market. It's a faster buck. Games writing is an art
566 form, but business software is engineering, with hard rules, which the
567 programmer must follow. I know prices are outrageous, but cheap stuff
568 is usually just that, cheap.
569    Another comment on standards: the IBM is suppossed to follow a standard
570 written in Europe, and if so we need less standards. Here in the computer
571 world, we have several keyboards: typewriter style, and teletype style.
572 Most real ones are "improved", but what that means is different. What we
573 really need is redefinable, custom keyboards. Cut your owm.  (Dreamer.)
574 Maybe even LCD displays on each key, so not only does it change its
575 meaning, but also its label too. I like my keyboard near my screen, but
576 others like cords. The European standard is for cords, and thin keyboards,
577 and the funny layout. Send it back to France, or wherever!
578 ................................B.A.D.......................................
579 But keyboards ARE redefinable! (If you want to spend the time
580 required digging into your OS/roms/whatever & then spend more
581 time writing assembler source!)
582  But actually, I agree send the foreign standards back
583 unless they're better AND upward compatible with what we got!
584 ................................................................
585 Dear B.A.D.:
586 I am not trying to compare Atari with mainframes.
587 I do feel, however, that Atari compares favorably with the
588 other machines in it's class -- 64K.
589 I also feel that to say that Atari is strictly a game machine
590 is to ignore much of it's potential. It can handle
591 many of the business applications now handled by such
592 machines as Apple II and TRS80. The Atari also has
593 an adaptable I/O structure that could easily be adapted
594 to a variety of scientific, experimental, and home uses.
595 ***************************************************************
596 &&&&&&&&&&&
597 If computers were designed RIGHT, we wouldn't have to worry
598 about keyboard layout: Once a simple (probably serial)
599 interface method was standardized, different keyboard could
600 be supplied depending on one's tastes.  In fact, with a little
601 effort keyboard could be redefinable in software.   Of course,
602 this would require swapping keys around, etc, but if you
603 really liked a particular keyboard you could use it for all
604 your computers.  Once again, non-thinking people make life
605 difficult for the world.
606 &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
607 
608 ++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
609 
610   IF ANYONE IS INTERESTED, THE PHONE NUMBER FOR THE
611 M.C.E.S.D. SCHOOL ATTENDENCE SYSTEM IS: xxx-xxxx
612 
613 SOMEONE A FEW MESSAGES BACK WAS THINKING OF 'BREAKING IN'
614 
615 I'VE TRIED, BUT HAVE HAD NO SUCCESS (SIGH ...)
619 [WE WILL SEE WHAT WE CAN DO ...RIGHT TOM!]
620 .........THE ETERNAL SYSM, DAVID GREENMAN ........
623 
624 ******************************************************
625 David,
626 
627 Actuaily, that is not the same system we had in mind, but
628 if I ever dop decide to do so, I will remember your name,
629 AND ACT ACCORDINGLY.  MICKEY,  GIVE US MORE sPACE!!!!   TOM