textfiles/messages/ALANWESTON/1991/CIS11_04.txt

#: 12845 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    03-Nov-91  16:56:08
Sb: #12828-CoCo 3 terminal
Fm: Bob Archambault 76506,3544
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

Thanx Kev,

I'll look around for the heck of it and see what will run on a terminal. Maybe
some of these databases, etc. that you talked about.

Whatever happens, it's fun to experiment anyway!!!

Thanx...oh and get some sleep <grin>!!

Bob



#: 12846 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    03-Nov-91  17:02:15
Sb: #12839-#CoCo 3 terminal
Fm: Bob Archambault 76506,3544
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)

Steve,

Sounds interesting!! From what you said, it sounds like you're running a BBS
while multi-tasking with your other personal stuff, is this the case?  Also,
how about the names of some of the programs you have that DO run well on a
terminal??

(Sounds like I could really get into this <grin>!!!)

Thanx,

Bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12856 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    03-Nov-91  21:31:00
Sb: #12846-#CoCo 3 terminal
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Bob Archambault 76506,3544 (X)

Bob ...

While not exactly a BBS, you've got the general picture. I actually allow shell
access to a few trusted folks for whatever suits their fancy. Of course, I have
a electronic mail package installed, so we can leave messages between ourselves
... as well as running Mark's UUCP programs so I've been known to shuttle a few
files back and forth across country as well.

All on this lil' CoCo 3.

So far as character based games that run well remotely, I have an Adventure
game, cribbage, solitare, tic-tac-toe .... more serious applications include
dynacalc, scred, uemacs, dynastar and IMS (database)..

Fun? It's soooo much fun I've put my money down for a MM/1. OSK should give me
a few more challenges!


Steve

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12882 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    04-Nov-91  19:29:48
Sb: #12856-CoCo 3 terminal
Fm: Bob Archambault 76506,3544
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255

Steve,

These games & "serious applications" that you mentioned, are they available
thru any of the vendors on RAINBOW magazine??

Also, what are "scred", "uemacs", etc.? What do they do?

Sounds like I'm about to open a new can of fish on the CoCo (for me that is)
<grin>!!!  I Love It!

Thanx,

Bob



#: 12871 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    04-Nov-91  09:41:08
Sb: #12826-#CoCo 3 terminal
Fm: Lee Veal 74726,1752
To: Bob Archambault 76506,3544 (X)


    There are a lot of useful programs that can be run from terminals that are
attached to a CoCo3.  However, there are some programs like some of the CoCo3
specific games that were never intended to be run from a terminal. Now if you
had a terminal that could in some way simulate the memory moves that it takes
to support a VDG-based game you could run it, but you'd still need some serious
mods to OS9's serial drivers so that the memory move
 commands could be sent downothe serial line.

There are are some word processors that will run from a terminal by simply
 specifying to the wordprocessor what the characteristics of the terminal are.

It's not a lie to call OS9 a multitasking / multiuser operating system.

I routinely use Dynacalc and some other programs from terminals.

Lee



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12884 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    04-Nov-91  19:43:41
Sb: #12871-CoCo 3 terminal
Fm: Bob Archambault 76506,3544
To: Lee Veal 74726,1752

Lee,

When I said that it was a misnomer (OR lie) that OS-9 was truly multiuser, it
was due to my ignorance of what is possible on a terminal. Now that you, Kevin,
and Steve have all explained some of this to me, I am learning a little more
about it! I now apologize to everyone (including Microware) <GRIN>, for making
that statement!!!

I am really looking forward to exploring this further, and the help and
guidance of all of you will be invaluable to me!

Thanx again!

Bob



#: 12870 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    04-Nov-91  09:28:40
Sb: #12800-#CoCo 3 terminal
Fm: Lee Veal 74726,1752
To: Bob Archambault 76506,3544 (X)

If you can get your terminal to respond to OS9 Escape Codes, as Kevin
mentioned, then you should be able to run things like DED, OS9 Profile,
Dynacalc, the PD game called SOKOBAN, and some others.  The key is, though,
whether Ultimaterm can interpret incoming OS9 Escape Codes that an application
like the ones mentioned is going to send as screen formatting commands.

Lee

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12883 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    04-Nov-91  19:34:58
Sb: #12870-CoCo 3 terminal
Fm: Bob Archambault 76506,3544
To: Lee Veal 74726,1752

Thanx Lee,

I've got a lot to learn about this - and I'll probably ask a hundred more
questions! One that comes to the top of my mind though is:

If I run OS-9 on my terminal, can I redirect my output to /t2 and my input FROM
/t2 and communcate that way?? Or would I still need to run a term program on
the terminal??

Thanx again!

Bob



#: 12848 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-91  17:43:16
Sb: #12801-Termcap and Basic
Fm: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

Thinking some more (big trouble!!) about the termcap/basic thingie... I think
that what I was alluding to in my 1st message was that we should avoid termcap
and use something like the coco GFX2 interface. It'd just be a matter of using
different interfaces for different setups--and so long as all the interfaces
had the same calling setup and programmers agreed to determine the interface to
use from the system instead of hardcoding then everything should be sweet.

Don't know, but are you doing a GFX2 thing for the MM/1?

#: 12854 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-91  20:58:34
Sb: #12797-Termcap and Basic
Fm: BRUCE MOORE 70075,143
To: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 (X)

I wrote a basic09 prog in level2 that calls a seperate basic program to
 clear the screen or to home the cursor that takes a parameter so it knows what
terminal it is on RUN clearscreen(termcode) I do not understand termcap but if
it will eliminate this extra work I am
 interested.

#: 12849 S7/Telecommunications
    03-Nov-91  18:43:27
Sb: #12792-Quick-B Problems
Fm: Paul Rinear 73757,1413
To: Erich Schulman 75140,3175 (X)

     Nope,
           They aren't RFI. They don't occur at all if I boot up with earlier
versions of my boot disk. If anything, this computer generates quite a bit of
RFI that I can tune in on my shortwave or watch on my television. But I don't
use them at the same time so it doesn't matter. The bars that flash on my
screen are very digital looking. Thanks anyway.
                          Paul

#: 12850 S7/Telecommunications
    03-Nov-91  18:55:24
Sb: #12806-#Quick-B Problems
Fm: Paul Rinear 73757,1413
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X)

     Well, I did some checking: I booted up starting with an old boot disk and
used sucessively newer disks until I found where the problem started. The
problem started not with the addition of the hard drive or any of the serial
ports, but with the addition of SACIA.
     I also tried the interrupt driven version of B&B's CC3Disk and this was
radically wworse. You could see lots of missing characters while online at 300
baud.
     The horizontal bars that occur are very digital in nature. They look like
those above Ascii 127 characters that you can generate in RSDOS but they flash
by too fast. However, when I see them I know there will be download problems.
     I have another boot disk that has a CC3Disk version that is used when
running PCDos. This does not support the no-halt floppy controller but it too
causes the flashing bars even without SACIA present. There are no download
problems in this situation though.
     When I log on to CIS after I get the CONNECT message from the modem, I hit
Cntl-C. With the standard ACIAPAK driver, I have to hit return to send the
Cntl-C down the line. With SACIA, I don't have to hit return; the Cntl-C
apparently shoots right out. This is a nice feature for CIS use.
     Is there maybe something in SACIA that needs setting with the new XMODE it
comes with in order for it to perform correctly?

                              What do you think?
                                                  Paul

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12857 S7/Telecommunications
    03-Nov-91  21:36:43
Sb: #12850-#Quick-B Problems
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Paul Rinear 73757,1413 (X)

Paul,

Was there a corrected clock module that was also needed with the SACIA modules?
Seems to me the 'soft' fix to irq problems was in the clock module.

Can't speak to the stalling ^c problems. My control codes shoot out just dandy
... no need to hit <enter>.

As far as new xmode settings for SACIA .... you have increased the xmit/receive
buffers, jes? A small buffer could be the cause of your troubles.


Steve

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12879 S7/Telecommunications
    04-Nov-91  17:17:46
Sb: #12857-Quick-B Problems
Fm: Paul Rinear 73757,1413
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255

    Hmm. Since I have a real time clock on a Disto 3 in 1 board I figured I had
to use their clock module, no?
    What is this buffer size increase and how do you do it? It's definintely
worth a try.
                             Paul

#: 12851 S15/Hot Topics
    03-Nov-91  19:50:03
Sb: #12569-#MW and CD-I News
Fm: David L. Kaleita 72657,2775
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

Hi Kev. <Dave Kaleita>

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12863 S15/Hot Topics
    03-Nov-91  22:48:07
Sb: #12851-MW and CD-I News
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: David L. Kaleita 72657,2775

Hey Mr CD-I!  We sure need you now :-)  Long wait, eh?

Saw a couple of your messages about it on comp.sys.atari.st a few months back.

kev

#: 12852 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-91  20:54:31
Sb: #12762-#Kwindows for the TC70
Fm: BRUCE MOORE 70075,143
To: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754 (X)

 Yeah me too! Can I get kd windows for the tc70?  How much?  Is it the same as
 what the mm/1 will have?  How does it compare to g-windows? Are there other
 options?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12860 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-91  22:29:40
Sb: #12852-#Kwindows for the TC70
Fm: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754
To: BRUCE MOORE 70075,143 (X)

I've left Kevin Darling a mail message about procuring KWindows for the TC70,
he responded back that he'll have to get back with me.

KWindows, from everything I've been told, is very close to the windows that we
have in the OS9/6809/CoCo windows.

GWindows is much more like a MAC set of windows....I've just gotten a test
version of GWindows, and the Desktop is phenominal.....so close to a MAC's
look, and feel, that it's spooky  (g).

Microware, I understand, is supposed to be working on an XWindow format for
OS9...but I don't know the details of that environment at all.

At least, for now, GWindows, and KWindows, is what we have for OS9/68K.

Of course, that's twice as many options as we had for the CoCo......

jim Sutemeier



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12864 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-91  22:55:41
Sb: #12860-Kwindows for the TC70
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754 (X)

Yah, all we really need is for someone to write a standard library set which'll
work on any system.  There's something called stdwindows which might fit... its
calls have been ported to X, Mac, ST and MGR, I think.  Add in G/KWindows and
we'd be cooking with gas.  Just relink a program.

PS: hang tight.  Overlapping windows using the L-II upgrade technology (which
includes moving from screen to screen) has been going in all this week. Should
be done soon (KWindows).  Mike H and I are making sure it all works out.  So
far it's been pretty neat to see Tetrix running in any size window... and it
doesn't even know! :-)

kev

#: 12855 S9/Utilities
    03-Nov-91  20:58:53
Sb: #Extracting .
Fm: Erich Schulman 75140,3175
To: all

Is there any way my CoCo3 can extract the .Z archives found in the UNIX Fourm?
I found a few text files I'd like to get but I have no Z extractor.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12859 S9/Utilities
    03-Nov-91  21:38:26
Sb: #12855-Extracting .
Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255
To: Erich Schulman 75140,3175 (X)

Erich,

If they're 12 bit compressed files, we have a compress utility that will do the
job in the libraries. If it's the more popular 16 bit jobs, I've not found
anything.

Steve

#: 12858 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-91  21:37:12
Sb: #12799-#TOPS programs
Fm: DENIS CHARTRAND 72561,2714
To: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754 (X)


    I'm not 100% sure, but if I remember you have to use the "sh" shell from
the TOPS package if you want mmon and other related utilities to work
correctly. They don't work properly with stock Microware "shell" interpreter.

   By the way, you have more success with aterm/xterm usage??


   BYE, from Denis.



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12861 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-91  22:31:54
Sb: #12858-#TOPS programs
Fm: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754
To: DENIS CHARTRAND 72561,2714

Hiya, Denis....never thought of the 'sh' shell.....will have to try it out and
see if that is the problem.....

aterm/xterm.....sorry, but xterm still crashes in my system (won't even give me
a help screen...)....aterm is not correct as the Aterm.Ctl file is looking at a
VT52 environment, and I don't know what this TC70 emulates, or what codes to
change the ctl file to.....

jim Sutemeier



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12867 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    04-Nov-91  04:44:18
Sb: #12861-#TOPS programs
Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312
To: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754 (X)


 Jim,

 LOGON will work with MW shell, csh and sh.  (I use csh most of the time.)
 Read the docs on logon.  You need a 'sysinfo' file in your systems
 directory as well as a couple of other files.  I forgotten what's all
 required.

 In your startup file, you'll need a line like -

 '/h0/ETC/CMDS/setup /h0/SYS/sysinfo'  assuming you've installed the
 stuff as TOP provided it.

 Works fine on my system (SYSTEM IV) - I use it all the time.

 One caveat - if you ever go to a 030, it won't work - something to do
 with the memory security module.  Not having the source, don't really
 know what the problem is.

 Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12872 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    04-Nov-91  10:15:40
Sb: #12867-TOPS programs
Fm: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754
To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X)

Thanks, Ed....will check this information out, and (hopefully) get it working
correctly.

I FINALLY DID get mmon to set the TR light on my modem 'on', by doing a mmon
<>>>/t1&, but then mmon disappeared again.

I also got watch to do it, too, using the same algorithym.....

But, ever though the modem answered, nada.....

Thanks again, for your assistance.

jim Sutemeier



#: 12862 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    03-Nov-91  22:42:05
Sb: #12830-#MM/1 AND NY ZOOM MODEM
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: James Jones 76257,562 (X)

Actually, come to think of it I used to use my t0 with a generic mouse 9-25 pin
connector.  Unfortunately the adapter doesn't fit along with my 9-pin video
cable.  So I should try a regular cable (9-25) instead.

Hmmm. thx - kev

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12868 S12/OS9/68000 (OSK)
    04-Nov-91  08:21:23
Sb: #12862-MM/1 AND NY ZOOM MODEM
Fm: James Jones 76257,562
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X)

Yup, those connectors *are* pretty close together!  The 135 connector and the
one for /t0 are very well acquainted... :-)

#: 12865 S1/General Interest
    04-Nov-91  04:15:51
Sb: #12836-INTERNET
Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312
To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255


 Steve,

 Sent my message using the following address -

 >INTERNET:COCO@PUCC.Princeton.EDU

 It bounced.

 The returned message follows -

*** Start of returned header

CompuServe Mail

Date:  03-Nov-91 08:44 EST From:  Mail Delivery Subsystem  
>INTERNET:Mailer-Daemon@csi.compuserve.com Subj:  Returned mail: User unknown

Sender: Mailer-Daemon@csi.compuserve.com Received: by ihb.compuserve.com
(5.65/5.910516)
        id AA26582; Sun, 3 Nov 91 08:36:31 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 91 08:36:31
-0500 From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <Mailer-Daemon@csi.compuserve.com> Subject:
Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9111031336.AA26582@ihb.compuserve.com>
To: 76576.3312@compuserve.com

   ----- Transcript of session follows ---->>> RCPT To:<coco@princeton.edu> <<<
550 <coco@princeton.edu>... User unknown 550 coco@princeton.edu... User unknown

   ----- Unsent message follows ----
 What did I do wrong????

 Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO



#: 12881 S1/General Interest
    04-Nov-91  18:31:38
Sb: #12831-INTERNET
Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230
To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X)

Ed -

Try addressing to:

    COCO@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU.....

Your pervious address lacked the PUCC. part....

Pete

#: 12866 S15/Hot Topics
    04-Nov-91  04:43:40
Sb: #12834-#updates?
Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312
To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X)


 Jim,

 I will be uploading full information re G-Windows very shortly.  Probably
 in conjunction with Frank (why duplicate effort).  Please be patient with
 us.  It's taking a lot of time to fully assimilate what we have.  Turning
 out to be more powerful than I thought.

 Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12873 S15/Hot Topics
    04-Nov-91  10:22:13
Sb: #12866-#updates?
Fm: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754
To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X)

GWindows --> turning out to be more powerful than I thought.

Are you ever correct there, Ed....I received the GWindow demo package this past
week, and have been working on, and playing (grin) with them all weekend.

The Desktop is EXCELLENT...the more I use it, the more powerful I realize that
it is.

This package should really turn some heads.....

jim Sutemeier



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12886 S15/Hot Topics
    04-Nov-91  21:25:10
Sb: #12873-updates?
Fm: BRUCE MOORE 70075,143
To: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754

I have recently ordered my tc70 for use in my business in northern VA
 You dont happen to live in this area do you? Know any tc70 people that do?
 We may be able to help each other.

#: 12869 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    04-Nov-91  09:19:28
Sb: #12795-COCO3 OS9 PROBLEM
Fm: Lee Veal 74726,1752
To: Jamie Jagodzinski 75300,1067 (X)

Jamie, some early CoCo Disk Controllers won't work with a CoCo3 when it's
running at the 2MHz speed.  Level 2 on the CoCo3 runs at that speed.

How old is you disk controller?  FD-501s and FD-502 will probably be okay, but
earlier ones may not be able to respond properly to a CC3 that's running at
2MHz.

I had the same thing happen to me when I first started using Level 2.  I had a
disk controller that I got with my very first gray CoCo 1.  Radio Shack was no
help then either.  I discovered that Level 2 would boot with my J&M Disk
Controller, but I only had one of them, and I had two CoCo3s.  I had to
purchase a better controller.

Lee



#: 12874 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    04-Nov-91  10:29:05
Sb: For Sale
Fm: Jim Sutemeier 70673,1754
To: all

I will be selling off all of my CoCo equipment, now that I own this
Tomcat70....

To those of you who know me, and my BBS, the <Plain Rap> BBS, I will shut down
this BBS temporarily -- until some BBS software is ported over to the OSK
environment.

First item for sale will be.....

One Seagate ST1100 (100 meg) hard drive, complete with Burke & Burke interface,
power supply and cabinet.

I bought this drive less than 120 days ago, when I thought I was gonna buy a
Tomcat9, and the asking price for the complete set is less than I paid for the
drive.

Included will be my complete cmds directory (about 200 cmds), plus I will
'throw in' all of my BBS downloads (about 1200 files, pictures, text files,
help files, etc., etc.)

The package would be ideal if you wanted to run a BBS, if you've a mind to.

Asking price:  $350  O.B.O., plus S&H

voice: 818-891-3369 bbs:   818-894-0012

jim Sutemeier



#: 12875 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    04-Nov-91  10:55:51
Sb: #Aborting Edit?
Fm: Erich Schulman 75140,3175
To: all

Is there any way I can tell Edit that I want to quit without saving? I've tried
ctrl-c, ctrl-e, and even KILLing it from another shell in another window.  Edit
just won't let go.  The only thing that has worked is pressing RESET twice and
rebooting.  Almost surprised that works(g).

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12876 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    04-Nov-91  11:46:54
Sb: #12875-#Aborting Edit?
Fm: Kevin Darling 76703,4227
To: Erich Schulman 75140,3175 (X)

I'm sure there must be a way of exiting Edit without saving, but until someone
looks it up, you could just do what I'd probably do:

Flip to another window and copy the original file to a different name.

Then quit edit, and shuffle things around as needed to get back where I was. 
But then, I'm lazy :-)

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12877 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    04-Nov-91  14:00:28
Sb: #12876-#Aborting Edit?
Fm: Erich Schulman 75140,3175
To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227

I know there is some way to do it because I once did it by accident. But I have
no idea what I did to do it!  I always use Edit with files on a RAMdisk and
since I was working on my startup file copied from /d0, I lost nothing.  Why
should it be so hard to leave Edit without saving your changes--I thought one
of the "rules" of OS-9 is that you let a ctrl-e or a KILL terminate your
process but here is something on the original system disk which is different. 
A hard disk defragmenter, I can understand why you'd intercept attempts to
stop, but a _line editor_??

As a rule, /term and /w1 are always active with shells on my system so I'll try
out your method.  I do nearly all my text editing with Simply Better.  Even
having to RSDos DECB<-->OS-9 is worth the ease of SB over Edit.  I only use
Edit to make little fixups to patch scripts, Basic-09 listings I download,
Startup, and so forth.  And I'll use its counterpart built-in to Basic-09 for
new programs so I can get the immediate syntax checking.

Oh well.  Thanks just the same.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12880 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    04-Nov-91  18:09:04
Sb: #12877-Aborting Edit?
Fm: Bruce MacKenzie 71725,376
To: Erich Schulman 75140,3175 (X)

Erich,
 You can do something similar to what Kevin suggested by using the
shell command from within the editor:

 .shell rename oldfile save

where oldfile is your original read file.  Once renamed edit can't find your
original file when it tries to delete it.

#: 12878 S1/General Interest
    04-Nov-91  17:06:15
Sb: #12840-#Hard drives
Fm: JOERG SATTLER 74016,631
To: BILL HEALTON 73367,357

If that is the case (MFM only) then I had better locate what I want quickly, I
feel as if I am dealing with a fossil then, and access to the MFM drives seems
to decline with time. Thanks for the reply.
                                Joerg Sattler 74016,631

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12885 S1/General Interest
    04-Nov-91  20:17:28
Sb: #12878-Hard drives
Fm: Erich Schulman 75140,3175
To: JOERG SATTLER 74016,631

Get a copy of Computer Shopper and look for MFM drives there.  You may need a
whole evening to come up with a shopping list (concentrate on the last 1/3d of
the mag and use the indexes) but you should be able to come up with an adequate
list.  Don't expect any help from the dealers; ask your questions here and
place your order when ready.

#: 12887 S10/OS9/6809 (CoCo)
    04-Nov-91  21:44:41
Sb: crashed hd coco sys.
Fm: Robert A. Hengstebeck 76417,2751
To: all

My hard drive, on my coco system just crashed, and I have decided to throw in
the towel.  For whoever is willing to pay the shipping, I will give away the
hard drive, the LR Tech System, the multipack, and a coco III with 512k of
memory.  When I can afford to, I will get Ed Gressick's System IV, as a replace
 ment system.  Probably some time next year.  If you are interested please call
me at (215) 322-5455, and I will work something out with you.



Press <CR> !>