887 lines
44 KiB
Plaintext
887 lines
44 KiB
Plaintext
![]() |
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
****************************************************************************
|
|||
|
>C O M P U T E R U N D E R G R O U N D<
|
|||
|
>D I G E S T<
|
|||
|
*** Volume 2, Issue #2.18 (December 28, 1990) **
|
|||
|
****************************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
MODERATORS: Jim Thomas / Gordon Meyer (TK0JUT2@NIU.bitnet)
|
|||
|
ARCHIVISTS: Bob Krause / Alex Smith
|
|||
|
PERIPATETIC GADFLY: Brendan Kehoe
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
USENET readers can currently receive CuD as alt.society.cu-digest.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
COMPUTER UNDERGROUND DIGEST is an open forum dedicated to sharing
|
|||
|
information among computerists and to the presentation and debate of
|
|||
|
diverse views. CuD material may be reprinted as long as the source is
|
|||
|
cited. Some authors, however, do copyright their material, and those
|
|||
|
authors should be contacted for reprint permission.
|
|||
|
It is assumed that non-personal mail to the moderators may be reprinted
|
|||
|
unless otherwise specified. Readers are encouraged to submit reasoned
|
|||
|
articles relating to the Computer Underground.
|
|||
|
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
|||
|
DISCLAIMER: The views represented herein do not necessarily represent the
|
|||
|
views of the moderators. Contributors assume all responsibility
|
|||
|
for assuring that articles submitted do not violate copyright
|
|||
|
protections.
|
|||
|
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
CONTENTS:
|
|||
|
File 1: Moderators' Corner
|
|||
|
File 2: From the Mailbag
|
|||
|
File 3: Computers Under Attack
|
|||
|
File 4: CU Resources in Germany
|
|||
|
File 5: Trade Secrets; When are they Bad?
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
********************************************************************
|
|||
|
*** CuD #2.18: File 1 of 5: Moderator's corner ***
|
|||
|
********************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
From: Moderators
|
|||
|
Subject: Moderators' Corner
|
|||
|
Date: December 28, 1990
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
++++++++++
|
|||
|
In this file:
|
|||
|
1. FTP FILES
|
|||
|
2. RESOURCES OF CU INTEREST
|
|||
|
++++++++++
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
+++++++++++++++++++++
|
|||
|
FTP Files
|
|||
|
+++++++++++++++++++++
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
The FTP archives are steadily growing. They include Network Information
|
|||
|
Access (NIA), a few new CU magazines, and a variety of computer crime
|
|||
|
statutes (state, federal, foreign), and a few new papers written by law
|
|||
|
students and attorneys. Thanks to all those who send material along. If you
|
|||
|
submit a long paper (20 pages or more), please be sure the format is
|
|||
|
complete (biblio and footnotes not excluded if cited in the text) and line
|
|||
|
length is not over 80 characters per line. Papers should be of publishable
|
|||
|
quality and not simply stream-of-consciousness opinion. If you're not sure
|
|||
|
if your paper is appropriate, send it along anyway. Papers should be timely
|
|||
|
or of historical/archival value, and not something you happened across on a
|
|||
|
BBS somewhere that is dated.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
--------------------
|
|||
|
Resources Worth Looking At
|
|||
|
--------------------
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
There are a number of first-rate resources available on the nets for
|
|||
|
computerists of all stripes. Among those of particular value include:
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
1. TAP MAGAZINE: TAP contains a variety of information and can be obtained
|
|||
|
for only a postage stamp for each issue from:
|
|||
|
TAP
|
|||
|
PO Box 20264
|
|||
|
Louisville, KY 40250
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
2. 2600 Magazine: 2600 covers a broad range of topics, ranging from
|
|||
|
technical material to political analysis. It is published quarterly in
|
|||
|
hardcopy format. It also holds periodic meetings and is an excellent
|
|||
|
resource for information of relevance to a variety of interests. 2600
|
|||
|
Magazine can be reached at:
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
2600@well.sf.ca.us OR
|
|||
|
2600 EDITORIAL DEPARTMENT
|
|||
|
P.O. BOX 99,
|
|||
|
MIDDLE ISLAND, NY 11953
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
3. EFF DIGEST: The Electronic Frontier Foundation's first issue of EFF
|
|||
|
Digest is out, and it is essential reading for those keeping up with the
|
|||
|
the specifics of EFF activity as well as for following legal cases and
|
|||
|
other issues affecting the computer world. The first issue provides a
|
|||
|
detailed summary of the EFF goals and activities to date.
|
|||
|
E-mail subscription requests: effnews-request@eff.org
|
|||
|
Editorial submissions: effnews@eff.org
|
|||
|
Or:
|
|||
|
Electronic Frontier Foundation
|
|||
|
155 Second St.
|
|||
|
Cambridge, MA 02141
|
|||
|
(617) 864-0665
|
|||
|
(617) 864-0866 (fax)
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
4. BMUG (Berkeley Macintosh Users' Group) Magazine: Don't be deceived by
|
|||
|
the name. BMUG contains a variety of articles relevant to all computerists
|
|||
|
and is well worth reading. The Fall/Winter 1990 issue of the BMUG
|
|||
|
newsletter will be available as of February, 1991. Cost is $25 (comes with
|
|||
|
6 month BMUG membership). To subscribe, call BMUG at (415) 549-BMUG.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
5. PHRACK CLASSIC: What can we say? Contact them at pc@well.sf.ca.us
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
6. TELECOM DIGEST: TCD, edited by Pat Townson, focuses primarily on telecom
|
|||
|
issues of all kinds (technical, legal, rumor, facts, news articles). During
|
|||
|
a period of hot topics, several issues can come out in a day. Pat chases
|
|||
|
down rumors, keeps posts relevant, and has established TCD as the premier
|
|||
|
e-mail source for telecom information. There is also an ftp site for back
|
|||
|
issues. To subscribe, contact:
|
|||
|
telecom@eecs.nwu.edu
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
7. NIA: Network Information Access, although fairly new, has published 68
|
|||
|
issues to date. The first issues were relative short, but, beginning with
|
|||
|
#68, the issues will be longer and provide a variety of detailed technical
|
|||
|
and other information. For more information, drop a note to:
|
|||
|
elisem@nuchcat.sccsi.com
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
8. NEWSBYTES: The Newsbytes News Network is an electronic news service
|
|||
|
dealing solely with technology issues. It is published daily on GEnie and
|
|||
|
is available in a semi-weekly format on Dialog, America On-Line, NewsNet
|
|||
|
and a Japanese newsnetwork. Excerpts are also downloaded for publication
|
|||
|
by Newspapers throughout the country (such as Computer Currents). The
|
|||
|
service is international and has bureaus from Moscow to Sydney, Australia.
|
|||
|
For more information, contact: mcmullen@well.sf.ca.us; CompuServe -
|
|||
|
70210,172; GEnie - nb.nyc; AppleLink -- x1888 and MCI - 316-9687 with any
|
|||
|
comments or additions.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
There are other good resources out there, and we will include them in
|
|||
|
future issues. There are also a number of good BBSs with extensive
|
|||
|
collections of text files or discussion sections (Ripco, The Well, The
|
|||
|
Works, Face-to-Face), and we will list a few of them next month. If you
|
|||
|
know of exceptional boards worth mentioning, pass the names and numbers
|
|||
|
along.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
********************************************************************
|
|||
|
>> END OF THIS FILE <<
|
|||
|
***************************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
------------------------------
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
From: Various
|
|||
|
Subject: From the Mailbag
|
|||
|
Date: December 28, 1990
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
********************************************************************
|
|||
|
*** CuD #2.18: File 2 of 5: From the Mailbag ***
|
|||
|
********************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
From: Carrier Wave <MERCURY@LCC.EDU>
|
|||
|
Subject: Operation Sun Devil and Ayn Rand
|
|||
|
To: TK0JUT1%NIU.BITNET@UICVM.UIC.EDU
|
|||
|
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 90 09:15 EST
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Operation Sun Devil and
|
|||
|
Ayn Rand's Theory of "The Sanction of the Victim"
|
|||
|
by Michael E. Marotta, mercury@well.sf.ca.us
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Arthur Koestler's novel, Darkness at Noon, tells of the downfall of a
|
|||
|
Bolshevik. He is purged by the party, charged with conspiring to
|
|||
|
assassinate Stalin. Of course, he did no such thing, but he soon comes
|
|||
|
to understand the needs of his captors. As a Bolshevik, he knows the
|
|||
|
theory of the centralized democracy and he comes to understand that
|
|||
|
merely questioning authority is no different than a physical assault on
|
|||
|
the Leader. The operant theory in this true-to-life example was later
|
|||
|
enunciated by Ayn Rand in her novel, Atlas Shrugged. She called it
|
|||
|
"The Sanction of the Victim."
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
In Atlas Shrugged, the heroes are engineers and investors who learn to
|
|||
|
reject mysticism, altruism and collectivism. They learn to be proud of
|
|||
|
their own achievements. They identify and reconcile the contradictions
|
|||
|
that tore them apart and allowed them to be regulated, ruled, taxed and
|
|||
|
vilified. One of the highlights of this novel is the trial of Hank
|
|||
|
Rearden, a steel industrialist who violated an equalization of opportunity
|
|||
|
law. He tells the court that it can sentence him to anything and he is
|
|||
|
powerless to prevent that but he will not help them by participating. He
|
|||
|
does not recognize their right to try him and he will not help them pretend
|
|||
|
that the trial is just. He is acquitted.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
If this seems too unreal, consider the case of Craig Neidorf in Chicago and
|
|||
|
compare it to the trials of the Legion of Doom in Atlanta. Neidorf stood
|
|||
|
his ground, prepared a First Amendment defense and asked for help from the
|
|||
|
pioneers on the electronic frontier. The government dropped its charges.
|
|||
|
In Atlanta, the hackers co-operated with the government, informed on each
|
|||
|
other and even testified against Craig Neidorf and they were sentenced to
|
|||
|
prison. Neidorf incurred legal expenses near $250,000. This is also about
|
|||
|
the size of the fines to be paid by each of the LoD hackers in Atlanta.
|
|||
|
The difference, of course, is that Neidorf is free and they are in jail.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
The decision to go to trial rested on the premise that Right makes Might.
|
|||
|
Niedorf prepared a First Amendment argument. In point of fact, victory
|
|||
|
hinged on the demolition of the government's evidence. A suitable defense
|
|||
|
could have been created from any perspective. The First Amendment is a
|
|||
|
broad shield that protects religion, speech and assembly in addition to
|
|||
|
writing. The Tenth Amendment guarantees all those necessary and proper
|
|||
|
rights enjoyed by the people that are not specifically enumerated in the
|
|||
|
Bill of Rights. Niedorf could have claimed that he was performing a
|
|||
|
challenge commanded of him by the Gods of Olympus. What counted most is
|
|||
|
that he felt that his accusers were morally wrong.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
The Legion of Doom went down the drain in Atlanta because they granted the
|
|||
|
moral high ground to the government. They were wrong in their own eyes and
|
|||
|
they deserved punishment by their own standards. Their viewpoint and their
|
|||
|
standards were the same as the government's.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
The question then becomes: Is hacking right? Unless you want to go to
|
|||
|
jail, you better find a lot of reasons to believe that it is.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
From: gnu@TOAD.COM
|
|||
|
Subject: Re: "strangers probing for security flaws" -- another view
|
|||
|
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 90 13:11:14 -0800
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Given the existing state of computer security (i.e. it requires excessive
|
|||
|
care by a system administrator to make a system more than nominally
|
|||
|
secure), I think that whatever automation we can bring to bear on security
|
|||
|
testing is welcome.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Suppose there was a free program, available in source code and scrutinized
|
|||
|
by wizards all over the net, that you could run to test your security. If
|
|||
|
you had the time, you might run it and fix up the things it found. If you
|
|||
|
didn't have the time, those things would probably go unfixed.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
If someone at a remote site (Italy?) volunteers to run such a program and
|
|||
|
mail you the results as they pertain to your site, are they performing you
|
|||
|
a service or a disservice? I don't know about you, but when a stranger
|
|||
|
knocks at my door to tell me that I left my garage door gaping wide open
|
|||
|
and the neighborhood hoods are eyeing my bicycles, I usually thank her
|
|||
|
rather than knocking her down and calling the police. Then I go and fix
|
|||
|
the garage door.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
If the stranger had taken a few bicycles before coming and telling me about
|
|||
|
the problem, that would be different. But even that is preferable to their
|
|||
|
stealing the bicycles and not even telling me I had a problem.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Sites all over the Internet *are* being probed by people who want to do
|
|||
|
them harm. We know this as a fact. I would prefer if we had some
|
|||
|
volunteer "cop on the beat"s who would walk by periodically and rattle the
|
|||
|
door to make sure it's locked.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
John
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
From: snowgoose!@UUNET.UU.NET
|
|||
|
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 90 16:16:00 -0500
|
|||
|
Subject: Is Technology Beyond the Law?
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Is Technology Beyond the Law?
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
There are many factors which shape events like Operation Sun Devil.
|
|||
|
Certainly mission, political mandate, public perception, and human frailty
|
|||
|
are forces which shaped the behavior of the Secret Service. But, the
|
|||
|
juxtaposition of technology and the law may well be the most significant
|
|||
|
factor.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Law is (or at least, is supposed to be) a reflection of the needs of
|
|||
|
society for definition of and protection of its interests. Technology
|
|||
|
presents rapidly changing circumstances with which the law, because the
|
|||
|
people, cannot keep abreast. Technology is, and will always be, beyond the
|
|||
|
law?
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Now, I'm not a lawyer, and I haven't got a clue of how to conceptualize
|
|||
|
this under the law, but consider the following:
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
One day, the Secret Service shows up at my door with a search warrant to
|
|||
|
seize and search my computer for incriminating evidence. They get my
|
|||
|
computer back to their lab and discover that the entire hard disk is
|
|||
|
encrypted, (probably block by block). Upon further examination, they find
|
|||
|
either an encryption card or a software encryption routine in the disk
|
|||
|
driver. I'm not going to give them the key. I have used a sufficiently
|
|||
|
difficult encryption technique as to frustrate even the NSA. Where does
|
|||
|
that leave their investigation? Where does that leave my computer?
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Is there a concept in the law which requires that a law must be
|
|||
|
enforceable? If so, isn't investigation an enforcement procedure? If so,
|
|||
|
and if the law isn't enforceable, what happens to my computer with its
|
|||
|
encrypted disk?
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
I have intentionally exaggerated the technical circumstances to raise the
|
|||
|
question, but it seems to me that the same situation exists today. The
|
|||
|
Secret Service has had 40+ computers and 23,000? disks since their seizure
|
|||
|
on May 8th, 1990. If we assume that the Secret Service has procedures
|
|||
|
(methods and techniques) for using the seized property in their
|
|||
|
investigation, then is there a time limit on how long the investigation
|
|||
|
can continue? If it could be demonstrated that there were *no* procedures
|
|||
|
for using the seized property in furtherance of the investigation, would
|
|||
|
they have a right to have seized it?
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
********************************************************************
|
|||
|
>> END OF THIS FILE <<
|
|||
|
***************************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
------------------------------
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 15:00:32 PST
|
|||
|
From: Peter Denning <pjd@riacs.edu>
|
|||
|
Subject: Computers Under Attack
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
********************************************************************
|
|||
|
*** CuD #2.18: File 3 of 5: Computers Under Attack ***
|
|||
|
********************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
COMPUTERS UNDER ATTACK
|
|||
|
Intruders, Worms, and Viruses
|
|||
|
Edited by Peter J. Denning
|
|||
|
ACM Press and Addison-Wesley, 1990, 554pp
|
|||
|
$18.50 ACM members, $20.50 others
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
On behalf of ACM Press and the authors of the 38 articles brought together
|
|||
|
in this edition, I am proud to announce that our book on the subject of
|
|||
|
attacks on computers is now available.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
This subject continues to receive ongoing attention in the national press
|
|||
|
--for example, the recent discovery of $12M of toll fraud at the NASA
|
|||
|
Johnson Space Center, Operation Sun Devil, an Esquire article about
|
|||
|
computer pirates breaking in to the Bell System, and the recent splashy
|
|||
|
appearance of the NRC report, "Computers at Risk".
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
The purpose of this book is to tell the story of attacks on computers in
|
|||
|
the words of those who are making the story and who see the broad
|
|||
|
perspective in which it is taking place. We have painstakingly selected
|
|||
|
the articles and have provided connective material to bring out the global
|
|||
|
context and show that the problem is not purely technology, not purely
|
|||
|
people, but a product of the interaction between people and computers in a
|
|||
|
growing worldwide network.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
After and introduction and preface by me, the articles are arranged in six
|
|||
|
parts. Most of these have been previously published, but there are a few
|
|||
|
new pieces specifically commissioned for this volume.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
PART I: THE WORLDWIDE NETWORK OF COMPUTERS
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Worldnet and ARPANET by Denning, overview of networks by Quarterman,
|
|||
|
reflections by Thompson, survey of computer insecurities by Witten.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
PART II: INTRUDERS
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Reflections by Reid, Wily hacker story by Stoll, a followup commentary by
|
|||
|
Mandel, and a business perspective by Wilkes.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
PART III: WORMS
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Internet worm overview by Denning, perspectives on the Morris worm by MIT's
|
|||
|
Rochlis et al, Purdue's Spafford, and Utah's Seeley, executive summary of
|
|||
|
Cornell Report, Morris indictment and trial summary by Montz, original worm
|
|||
|
paper by Shoch and Hupp.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
PART IV: VIRUSES
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Virus overview by Denning, BRAIN and other virus operation by Highland,
|
|||
|
virus primer by Spafford et al, viral protection in MS/DOS by Brothers, and
|
|||
|
a perspective on viruses by Cohen.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
PART V: COUNTERCULTURES
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Computer property rights by Stallman, cyberspace literature by Paul Saffo,
|
|||
|
a dialog on hacking and security by Dorothy Denning and Frank Drake.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
PART VI: SOCIAL, LEGAL, AND ETHICAL IMPLICATIONS
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
A spectrum of commentaries: moral clarity and sending a signal by Denning,
|
|||
|
global city by Morris, virus bills in congress by Crawford, GAO report
|
|||
|
summary, legal issues by Samuelson and by Gemingani, computer emergency
|
|||
|
response by Scherlis et al, ethics statements by various organizations, ACM
|
|||
|
President's letters by Kocher, ACM forum letters, law and order for the PC
|
|||
|
by Director, RISKS perspectives by Neumann, crimoids by Parker.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
To order the book, run to your local bookstore or call ACM Press Order
|
|||
|
Department. For credit card orders only call 800-342-6626 or in
|
|||
|
Maryland and outside the continental US call 301-528-4261 and for mail
|
|||
|
orders ACM Order Department, P. O. Box 64145, Baltimore, MD 21264. The
|
|||
|
price for ACM members is $18.50 and for nonmembers $20.50. Shipping is
|
|||
|
extra unless you send a check to the order department. BE SURE TO INCLUDE
|
|||
|
YOUR ACM MEMBER NUMBER AND THE BOOK ORDER NUMBER (706900).
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
********************************************************************
|
|||
|
>> END OF THIS FILE <<
|
|||
|
***************************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
------------------------------
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
From: "Martin Huber" <martin@EE.UNI-SB.DE>
|
|||
|
Subject: CU Resources in Germany
|
|||
|
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 90 04:29:59 +0100
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
********************************************************************
|
|||
|
*** CuD #2.18: File 4 of 5: CU Resources in Germany ***
|
|||
|
********************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
%Moderators' note: We in the U.S. tend to be rather insular and often think
|
|||
|
of the CU world as limited to the 48 contiguous states. We are constantly
|
|||
|
reminded by cybernauts elsewhere that we should be more aggressive in
|
|||
|
recognizing that cyberspace is non-territorial. There are numerous articles
|
|||
|
and newsbits out there that we don't often see because of language
|
|||
|
barriers. We *STRONGLY ENCOURAGE* readers fluent in other languages to
|
|||
|
either send over translations or send summaries of various news stories.
|
|||
|
In addition to their general interest, we are finding that scholars, law
|
|||
|
students, and others find this information quite helpful. Thanks to Martin
|
|||
|
for sending the following over. When we spoke with him, he indicated that
|
|||
|
there is considerable activity in Europe that we neglect here in the U.S.,
|
|||
|
and he uses a comment in Pat Townson's Telecom Digest to segue into the
|
|||
|
discussion%.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
*******************
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
In article <15334@accuvax.nwu.edu> (of Telecom Digest the
|
|||
|
moderator writes):
|
|||
|
>
|
|||
|
>Len Rose is beginning to prepare for his defense in Baltimore in
|
|||
|
>February. He is looking for Unix experts/gurus who would be willing to
|
|||
|
>provide general technical testimony about Unix. If anybody is willing
|
|||
|
>to consider it, or can provide the names of others who might be
|
|||
|
>willing, call Len at: (708) 527-xxxx.
|
|||
|
>
|
|||
|
>
|
|||
|
>Jim Thomas
|
|||
|
>Computer Underground Digest
|
|||
|
>
|
|||
|
>
|
|||
|
>[Moderator's Note: Poor Len. He's a great subject-candidate for the
|
|||
|
>old negro spiritual song, "Nobody Knows the Trouble I've Seen". PAT]
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
I'll side with PAT and Len (although i didn't notice what he did, but today
|
|||
|
a seemingly funny hack can become a ghostly nightmare real fast). Please
|
|||
|
understand that i do not side my criminal activities, but IMHO mostly the
|
|||
|
wrong people get caught. The real criminals nearly get away with it.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Me, i can't give him help (other than moral one). But there are some guys
|
|||
|
here in Germany who should be able to help with real expertise on any kinds
|
|||
|
of hacks (phone, modem, nets, UNIX boxes, other). They are called CCC
|
|||
|
(Chaos Computer Club). Their head has been charged with breaking into some
|
|||
|
kind of NATO network (can't remember details, ask them how it went out). I
|
|||
|
think they won or got a vote of confidence and a slight punishment because
|
|||
|
of having alerted security people about the possibility of the hack. Again,
|
|||
|
to state my opinion: They don't inquire into secrets in order to steal
|
|||
|
something/rob some bank/whatever, but merely want to enwiden their
|
|||
|
knowledge and try to pass information to others. (See below). Oh sh..... .
|
|||
|
Can't find any of their documents in my bureau. Let me try to squeeze my
|
|||
|
brain:
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Organization: "Chaos Computer Club"
|
|||
|
Contact: ??????? - they all have lots of nicknames
|
|||
|
City: "DW-2000 Hamburg"
|
|||
|
Country: "Germany"
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Check like 1-3 year old infos on the famous NATO hack. Names should appear
|
|||
|
there. I'll be searching back home and try to come up with more info ASAP.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Maybe a secondary contact in Hannover will help: This is a german computer
|
|||
|
magazine called "c't". It is a full-fledged computer magazine for mostly
|
|||
|
small computers and UNIX systems. The spectrum of articles ranges from
|
|||
|
problems in information theory over product reviews, hard- und software
|
|||
|
tests, source code listings in different languages to science-fiction
|
|||
|
stories. They regularly feature editorials on hacking, law problems and
|
|||
|
such and are at the approximate level of expertise as BYTE is in the US (in
|
|||
|
fact, the magazines cooperate). [Of course, professional level in germany
|
|||
|
is in general not as high as in the US (the states are much larger and thus
|
|||
|
have more experts), but in science Germany is competitive.] In their
|
|||
|
January 1991 issue (no kidding, it appears in the mid of December!) they
|
|||
|
published a report on a sociological study on computer freaks which was
|
|||
|
carried out by a german university (Univ. of Trier). In the following,
|
|||
|
i'll give some quotations (transliterated to English):
|
|||
|
[Note that this is done with no regard to copyright issues, i don't know
|
|||
|
what position c't has regarding such matters, but i think it is perfectly
|
|||
|
o.k. to translate something while crediting it to the original author. As
|
|||
|
for publishing, you have my allowance to publish the english summary as
|
|||
|
long as c't or the author is not affected by this move]
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
ARTICLE: "c't, Jan. 1990, p.44-46"
|
|||
|
AUTHOR: "Claudia Schmidt" [Can't find her listed on the
|
|||
|
publisher staff, seems to be an invited article, i bet she is
|
|||
|
from the research group]
|
|||
|
TITLE: Viele Vorurteile - Computerfreaks im Licht der Soziologie
|
|||
|
[ premonitions abound - computer freaks seen from a sociologist's
|
|||
|
point of view ]
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
The article starts:
|
|||
|
"In a study sponsored by the Department of the Interior of the FRG
|
|||
|
a group of scientists from the University of Trier tried to find
|
|||
|
access to the world of computer freaks. The sociologists wanted
|
|||
|
to gain a fundamental platform for the assessment of computer
|
|||
|
technology und to unemotionalize the discussion on it.
|
|||
|
Wherever computing centers are, young alert people with rugged
|
|||
|
hair and deep-set eyes can be seen in front of computer consoles;
|
|||
|
their arms are bent und their hands seem to be waiting for hitting
|
|||
|
the buttons of their keyboards which they watch with the same inten-
|
|||
|
sity a gambler watches the rooling dices. Seemingly more relaxed
|
|||
|
they sit at desks loaded with computer listings and meditate like
|
|||
|
scientists over cabalistic treats ....
|
|||
|
This statement dating back to 1977 clearly demonstrates the
|
|||
|
premonitions which usually are ascribed to computer freaks[1].
|
|||
|
'Pseudo-empirical criticism on culture, mythos-conserving hearsay!'
|
|||
|
it is termed by the authors of a 300-page report of the University
|
|||
|
of Trier[2]. People are adopting fancy images [of freaks] all too
|
|||
|
eagerly: most of the statements suffer from a pseudo-scientific
|
|||
|
method of 'associative reasoning', the scientists claim ...
|
|||
|
The sociologists visited the Chaos Communication Congress 1989
|
|||
|
in Hamburg, ..., 'in order to get a lasting impression of the
|
|||
|
productivity aspects of computer social life' and tested personal
|
|||
|
attitudes of [computer] freaks in meetings with several [computer]
|
|||
|
clubs. After field work, 62 interviews of 1 - 2 hours duration
|
|||
|
complimented by 15 interviews gained from interviews on a BBS
|
|||
|
were to be evaluated.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
[A description of a typical freak's school and college time follows
|
|||
|
(boring classrooms for under-rated geniuses), including the treat-
|
|||
|
ment of the early attraction of a typical freak towards technology.
|
|||
|
An interesting bynote states that women tend to exclude the computer
|
|||
|
of their private live and they are said to 'be afraid to destroy
|
|||
|
something'.
|
|||
|
The next paragraph follows the growth of a juvenile freak to
|
|||
|
a competent and professional specialist: ]
|
|||
|
Evolution:
|
|||
|
... [freaks], according to the scientists can be separated into
|
|||
|
the classes of 'hackers', 'players', 'programmers', 'crackers' and
|
|||
|
'crashers'.
|
|||
|
Freaks want to use all capabilities of their machines. A high
|
|||
|
degree of professionalism and competence, in general specialist's
|
|||
|
knowledge, gives the benefits of good standing, being recognized
|
|||
|
and admired among fellow professionals.
|
|||
|
The research group noticed that the rapid evolution of technology
|
|||
|
posed a problem. Social sciences always lag behind in assessment
|
|||
|
of new technologies and hust helplessly see a new wave of technology
|
|||
|
coming just as they finished evaluating it's predecessors.
|
|||
|
Lots of questions:
|
|||
|
The only solution to this problem is to tend towards dampening
|
|||
|
critical opinions: Of course the freak is working all alone ...
|
|||
|
in front of his computer, but - does he not communicate with
|
|||
|
fellow freaks over [computer] nets?
|
|||
|
A computer demands clear and concise commands, it cannot handle
|
|||
|
ambiguous statements found in everyday's speech. Under the assumption
|
|||
|
that a broad knowledge of speech is correlated with intellectual
|
|||
|
capabilities, a person who has to adopt his syntactical capability
|
|||
|
to abbreviations fitting a machine is in danger! ... the programming
|
|||
|
paradigm could influence life style towards thinking in rational
|
|||
|
terms only.
|
|||
|
Lone guys:
|
|||
|
On the other hand, there is a thesis that computerization is
|
|||
|
not the reason but the effect of a culture adoring reasoning, and
|
|||
|
that the computer is only fulfilling the wishes of men leaning
|
|||
|
towards a technical zivilisation. ...
|
|||
|
With the impact of lots of new media at home and at work, can
|
|||
|
we see an 'impersonalization of learning', will the real world
|
|||
|
be substituted by a made-up world, which is a secure place to flee
|
|||
|
to? ... Or is this world of synthetic images the expression of a
|
|||
|
desire to create new and singular scenarios, stimulating creativity
|
|||
|
and emotionality in the freaks? Is not today's world by a much
|
|||
|
higher degree plagued by rationalism and lack of emotions compared
|
|||
|
to the computerist's world?
|
|||
|
Summa summarum:
|
|||
|
For public discussion, the scientists drew the following
|
|||
|
conclusions: Since the computer is a well-known part of today's
|
|||
|
work, it is useful for several different specialisations. To the
|
|||
|
freak, it has become a natural part of his live and he spends a
|
|||
|
substantial amount of time and money on it.
|
|||
|
Only people with adequate knowledge can use a computer. A
|
|||
|
broad knowledge of information science is indispensable for a
|
|||
|
freak. His main method of learning is autodidactic. ... The
|
|||
|
'process of auto-professionalisation' is found across all
|
|||
|
social and professional levels.
|
|||
|
Those activities do not tend to neglect leisure-time acti-
|
|||
|
vities. Electronic media are very important, whereas books
|
|||
|
are not so important (with the exception of cs books). Data
|
|||
|
nets created a renaissance of the art of writing letters.
|
|||
|
Computer freaks are not biased towards technology. From
|
|||
|
their intimate knowledge of systems and their limitations,
|
|||
|
their [the freaks] opinions are well balanced and often two-
|
|||
|
sided. Dangers are seen mainly in big uncontrollable systems.
|
|||
|
Contours of the information age of tomorrow are seen as changing
|
|||
|
and not subject to forecast or planning in a deterministic way.
|
|||
|
Methods of learning und practical work show a high degree
|
|||
|
of personal autonomy. New forms of self-controlled and self-
|
|||
|
confident use of communication medias are evolving hand in hand
|
|||
|
with a culture which does not need federal regulations
|
|||
|
(e.g. in form of laws). [because they are self-regulating, i
|
|||
|
can't resist to make my point here]
|
|||
|
The authors close with a proposal to the ministry of the
|
|||
|
interior to inquire into the usefulness of computerclubs and
|
|||
|
groups of hackers as critics of media, similar to the
|
|||
|
function of ecologist's associations in environment.
|
|||
|
[ The article closes with the perfectly natural observation
|
|||
|
that the degree of weirdness and fanaticism does not vary
|
|||
|
between philanthropists, hobby astrologicians and computer
|
|||
|
freaks ]
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
[1] J. Weizenbaum, Die Macht der Computer und die Ohnmacht der Vernunft,
|
|||
|
Frankfurt/a.M., 1977, p.160
|
|||
|
[The power of computers and the impotence of common sense]
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
[2] R. Eckert et al., Im Schatten der Computer-Mythen. Zur kulturellen
|
|||
|
Praxis und den Spezialkulturen von Hackern, Programmierern,
|
|||
|
Crackern und Spielern. Eine ethnografische Untersuchung, Trier,
|
|||
|
[In the twilight of computer myths. On the cultural praxis and the
|
|||
|
specialized cultures of hackers, programmers, crackers and players.
|
|||
|
An ethnografical study]
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
In the following some more citations from "c't", quoted from the
|
|||
|
indices:
|
|||
|
- c't,October 1990,Rechtliche Rahmenbedingungen fuer die Mailbox
|
|||
|
[ Juristical Framework for BBS ]
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
- c't,February 1990,Es geht um Milliarden - Niederlage der Post in einem
|
|||
|
Modem-Prozess
|
|||
|
[ billions on stake - telco looses lawsuit concerning modems ]
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
- c't,May 1989,Hackordnung - Wann wird das Strafrecht fuer Datenreisende
|
|||
|
zur Falle?
|
|||
|
[ hacker's laws - when do hackers get trapped in penal law? ]
|
|||
|
* This is written by a lawyer and treates the relationship *
|
|||
|
* between german penal law and hacker's activities. - excellent. *
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
- c't,July 1988,Latente Bedrohung - Ueber die Verletzlichkeit der
|
|||
|
Informationsgesellschaft
|
|||
|
[ sleeping danger - about the vulnerability of information culture ]
|
|||
|
* This is an interview with Prof. Dr. Klaus Brunnstein, Univ. of
|
|||
|
* Hamburg, Inst. for applied computer science. He is specialising
|
|||
|
* in the field of computer crimes and the security of computer systems
|
|||
|
* Maybe a candidate for expert opinion?
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
The publishing company is:
|
|||
|
"Verlag Heinz Heise GmbH"
|
|||
|
"Postfach 610407"
|
|||
|
"DW-3000 Hannover 61"
|
|||
|
Tel. ++49/511/54747-10 (PBX with direct)
|
|||
|
Fax ++49/511/54747-33 (call extensions)
|
|||
|
The editor is:
|
|||
|
"Christian Persson" extension -10
|
|||
|
The vice editors are:
|
|||
|
"Andreas Burgwitz" extension -12
|
|||
|
"Detlef Grell", MSEE extension -13
|
|||
|
They are reachable on "CosmoNet":
|
|||
|
T. ++49/511/555398 300 Baud [ In fact, i think it is *their* BBS
|
|||
|
T. ++49/511/555392 300 Baud ask PAT or other netlanders for
|
|||
|
T. ++49/511/555686 1200 Baud more info. CosmoNet is well used in
|
|||
|
T. ++49/511/555630 1200 Baud Germany, maybe even Europe ]
|
|||
|
T. ++49/511/555302 2400 Baud
|
|||
|
Datex-P NUA: 45511090835 [ This is the german packet switching
|
|||
|
network. I have no idea of how to
|
|||
|
access it from overseas, but a friend of mine working in CA, USA
|
|||
|
should know it. If you need an european mail feed for this, i have
|
|||
|
access (in principle) to internet, bitnet, uucp and thus should be
|
|||
|
able to reach every german host. However, the transition from
|
|||
|
%internet,bitnet,uucp% to e.g. CosmoNet is newland for me. ]
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
I'll stop here. I have all of the cited articles in my bookshelf.
|
|||
|
I have a FAX and a copier around. So if Len wants to have some, he
|
|||
|
should phone / FAX / mail me. Of course, translations are better to
|
|||
|
be done by somebody which is a native english speaker. I can help
|
|||
|
with nasty german sentences, no problem (with lightspeed communication?
|
|||
|
- never!). Anyway, i'll help what i can, sticking to the old prin-
|
|||
|
ciple: in dubio pro reo.
|
|||
|
--
|
|||
|
/---------------------------------
|
|||
|
Martin / Martin Huber %
|
|||
|
%----------------------------/ Univ. of Saarland %
|
|||
|
%email: mahu@ee.uni-sb.de Dept. of Electr. Eng. %
|
|||
|
%Tel: ++49/681/302-3574 D-66 Saarbruecken 11 %
|
|||
|
%FAX: ++49/681/302-2678 Germany %
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
********************************************************************
|
|||
|
>> END OF THIS FILE <<
|
|||
|
***************************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
------------------------------
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
From: Dark Adept (Ripco-312-528-5020)
|
|||
|
Subject: Trade Secrets; When are they Bad?
|
|||
|
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 90 1:38:06 CST
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
********************************************************************
|
|||
|
*** CuD #2.18: File 5 of 5: Trade Secrets: When are they Bad? ***
|
|||
|
********************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Trade Secrets: When are they bad?
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
by
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
The Dark Adept
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
A trade secret is a method or procedure or information used by a company to
|
|||
|
obtain profit. The law protects trade secrets through copyrighting and
|
|||
|
patenting and various other laws. The main reason a company protects this
|
|||
|
type of information is to stop competitors from producing the same product
|
|||
|
thereby taking away from its profits. The main reason the government
|
|||
|
protects the rights of the company to protect this information is to
|
|||
|
promote innovation and progress (at least according to the U.S.
|
|||
|
Constitution). But, there are times when copyrighting and patenting reduce
|
|||
|
profits and restrict progress and innovation.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
The User Interface
|
|||
|
==================
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
One of the most important aspects of a computer program is the user
|
|||
|
interface (the way in which the user is allowed to interact with the
|
|||
|
computer). Ideally, a program should be able to perform complex tasks and
|
|||
|
remain user-friendly. However, the user interface does not affect the way
|
|||
|
in which the program completes its task. Two different programs with the
|
|||
|
same user interface can perform the same task in two different ways. One
|
|||
|
might be better or faster at the task than the other. Conversely, two
|
|||
|
programs that perform different tasks may have the same user interface.
|
|||
|
The point is that the user interface is generic. It can be applied to many
|
|||
|
different programs without changing the value of the program. It merely
|
|||
|
enhances or detracts from the program.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
In the same way, the user interface of any product does not change the
|
|||
|
integral operation of the product. Take the automobile, for example.
|
|||
|
In all automobiles the user interface is the same. There is a wheel you
|
|||
|
turn for direction. There are pedals on the floor to control speed, etc.
|
|||
|
The quality of the automobiles are not judged for value by the user
|
|||
|
interface, but by how the automobile responds to input from the user.
|
|||
|
How fast it goes, how durable it is, etc., these are the qualities by how
|
|||
|
an automobile is selected for purchase, and not by the fact that it has
|
|||
|
a steering wheel. One may take this analogy further by comparing automatic
|
|||
|
transmissions against stick-shifts. Neither changes the performance of the
|
|||
|
car in a radical way. A purchaser selects automatic or manual as a matter
|
|||
|
of either aesthetic preference or familiarity. If the buyer prefers stick
|
|||
|
over automatic, but the car with the stick is way behind the automatic
|
|||
|
in terms of performance, he would generally choose the automatic since he
|
|||
|
is buying the car to perform a task. The way the car performs the task
|
|||
|
is more important than how he tells the car to perform the task as long as
|
|||
|
both are equally intelligible to the car.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Can you see the point I am trying to make? A program can work either through
|
|||
|
a command line interface, a key-stroke interface, or a GUI (Graphic User
|
|||
|
Interface). None of these change the performance of the program to any
|
|||
|
great extent. They merely change the aesthetics and the ease of use. The
|
|||
|
interface should not be allowed to be protected under law. To do so would
|
|||
|
interfere with innovation and progress without conclusively affecting the
|
|||
|
profits of a company. If company A holds the rights to the best interface,
|
|||
|
but their program is worthless, then company B will still make more profit.
|
|||
|
If it is truly the best interface possible, then progress would be slowed
|
|||
|
since people would have to learn many different types of interfaces to go
|
|||
|
from one program to another. Clearly, it would be in the interest of all
|
|||
|
concerned to leave the interface open for public usage and only protect
|
|||
|
the code behind the interface.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Algorithms
|
|||
|
==========
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
To protect an algorithm is to, in effect, copyright a mathematical equation.
|
|||
|
Since all algorithms reduce down to a mathematical model, that model would
|
|||
|
not be able to be implemented except by whoever holds the rights. This
|
|||
|
would greatly reduce the productivity of mathematicians. Imagine if
|
|||
|
someone patented Integral Calculus. Don't laugh. IC is an algorithm
|
|||
|
like any other. It is a solution to a problem. Or what if someone
|
|||
|
patented the internal combustion engine? Most of us would be walking.
|
|||
|
But like the engine, it is not the algorithm of the engine that is important,
|
|||
|
but how it is implemented. All engines work on the same basic principle, but
|
|||
|
they do so differently. This is why one engine works better than the other.
|
|||
|
This is why a buyer would choose one engine over another.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Source Code
|
|||
|
===========
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
While source code should generally be protected, there are times when it
|
|||
|
may be more profitable to a company to release either the source code or
|
|||
|
important information pertaining to it. A prime example is IBM and Apple.
|
|||
|
Apple chose to keep their operating system under close wraps. IBM, in their
|
|||
|
usual wisdom, chose to let some of it fly. This caused the market to be
|
|||
|
flooded with "clone" PC's. Given a choice, most people bought PC's or
|
|||
|
PC-compatibles. This generated more third-party support and even higher
|
|||
|
sales. What is the best selling computer today? You got it. Who
|
|||
|
practically sets the standard for every computer that comes out today? Good
|
|||
|
guess. While some may say that IBM could have made more money if they
|
|||
|
had not released the information, I grant you that. But, IBM has something
|
|||
|
that Apple does not: insured existance. There is no way that IBM could
|
|||
|
be jettisoned from the marketplace. IBM has insured that they will exist
|
|||
|
long after Apple closes its doors. All they have to do is keep putting
|
|||
|
out downward compatible products and people will continue to buy PC's.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
The Hacker Ethic Vs. The Business Ethic
|
|||
|
=======================================
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Hackers (including programmers) view computer programs different than
|
|||
|
businessmen do. Bits and pieces of programs are meant to be shared in order
|
|||
|
to further innovation and increase productivity. Programmers have always
|
|||
|
shared algorithms, traded libraries, and swapped subroutines. They do this
|
|||
|
so that they do not have to "reinvent the wheel" every time they write a
|
|||
|
program. If something is very basic and can be used over and over in
|
|||
|
many programs, then programmers share it with others.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Businessmen, on the other hand, are not motivated by sharing but by making
|
|||
|
a dollar. There is nothing wrong with this at all. The problem is that
|
|||
|
sometimes making a dollar in the short run can be detrimental to the overall
|
|||
|
market in the long run. Being misers with algorithms will force everyone
|
|||
|
to spend a lot of time and MONEY to develop new products. If something
|
|||
|
is so basic and so useful, then it should be allowed the freedom to be
|
|||
|
developed to its fullest. Only then will the real bucks come rolling in.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
The solution to this paradox is that hackers have to learn that companies
|
|||
|
need money to keep going, and businessmen have to learn that computers
|
|||
|
cannot be treated like most products. A compromise needs to be reached so
|
|||
|
that both profits and innovation are protected without destroying each. Not
|
|||
|
everything should be given away, and not everything should be kept secret.
|
|||
|
Both should collaborate on deciding what to release and what to keep.
|
|||
|
Lately, it has been more of a business decision than a programmer's, and
|
|||
|
the imbalance is not good.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Conclusion
|
|||
|
==========
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
There are more things to consider when protecting something in a computer
|
|||
|
program than next quarter's profits. In the long run, it may be more
|
|||
|
profitable to let the competition use some of your ideas. The more people
|
|||
|
who are able to easily access computers, the bigger the market, and the
|
|||
|
more profit. If only one company has a good interface and the price is
|
|||
|
high, the market will be small. Obviously, not everything should be
|
|||
|
allowed to be used freely, but the decision-making process should include
|
|||
|
more than looking at the bottom line.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
A fond farewell.....
|
|||
|
====================
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
This is the last in my series of articles for CuD. I have tried to show
|
|||
|
another side of the Underground than the one that is commonplace. There
|
|||
|
is much more to the Underground than hacking and phreaking. It is composed
|
|||
|
of many intelligent people who can make a valuable contribution to the
|
|||
|
computer industry. They should not be thrown to the wayside as they have
|
|||
|
been. While I am not a spokesman for anyone down here, and I am certainly
|
|||
|
long-winded and less intelligent than many, I sincerely hope that these
|
|||
|
articles have made an impact on someone somewhere.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
I would also hope that I have inspired other members of the Underground
|
|||
|
to show that they are more than people who break into systems. This
|
|||
|
is your chance: start showing people what you really are, and then they
|
|||
|
will take you seriously. You can do a better job than I did; I know you
|
|||
|
can! Go out there and do it!!!
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
I would especially like to thank CuD and Jim Thomas for allowing me to
|
|||
|
espouse my drivel in their fine digest. A finer and fairer publication
|
|||
|
could not be found anywhere. I would also like to thank Dr. Ripco since
|
|||
|
it was his BBS that first connected me to Underground when I was a mere
|
|||
|
pup of 15, 6 years ago. I have yet to see a BBS that compares in quality
|
|||
|
in all my years down here.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
As for my future plans, I will be taking a sabbatical from being active in
|
|||
|
the Underground for a while. I have many things to reflect over and much
|
|||
|
to plan for my life. I have a few projects that may or may not include
|
|||
|
programming, writing, and editing a tech journal that will contain
|
|||
|
articles from members of the Underground of a technical nature. This
|
|||
|
journal would be sent throughout the computer industry as a means of
|
|||
|
communication.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
I know these articles probably sucked, but I gave it my best shot.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
In the words of the Darkest Adept the world has ever known:
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law;
|
|||
|
Love is the Law, Love under Will.
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
Thanks for the memories....
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
As always, I remain...
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
The Dark Adept
|
|||
|
Email: Ripco BBS (312)-528-5020
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
********************************************************************
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
------------------------------
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
**END OF CuD #2.18**
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
|