1776 lines
77 KiB
Plaintext
1776 lines
77 KiB
Plaintext
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F I D O N E W S -- Vol.12 No.26 (26-Jun-1995)
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+----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
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| A newsletter of the | ISSN 1198-4589 Published by: |
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| FidoNet BBS community | "FidoNews" BBS |
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| _ | +1-519-570-4176 |
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| / \ | |
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| /|oo \ | |
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| (_| /_) | |
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| _`@/_ \ _ | |
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| | | \ \\ | Editors: |
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| | (*) | \ )) | Donald Tees 1:221/192 |
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| |__U__| / \// | Sylvia 1:221/194 |
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| _//|| _\ / | |
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| (_/(_|(____/ | |
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| (jm) | Newspapers should have no friends. |
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| | -- JOSEPH PULITZER |
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+----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
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| Submission address: editors 1:1/23 |
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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| MORE addresses: |
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| submissions=> editor@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca |
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| Don -- don@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca |
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| Sylvia max@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca |
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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| For information, copyrights, article submissions, |
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| obtaining copies of fidonews or the internet gateway faq |
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| please refer to the end of this file. |
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+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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========================================================================
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Table of Contents
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========================================================================
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1. Editorial..................................................... 2
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2. Articles...................................................... 2
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Subject: The times, they are not changing at all, apparently 3
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A QUICK RESPONSE TO THE ARTICLE OF IGNORANCE WRITTEN BY BOB 5
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Subject: Russian objects to atheism in snooze <bleh>........ 11
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Subject: A Response to Bob Germer........................... 12
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Subject: Legalities of FidoNet.............................. 13
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Subject: What the hell is going on here?.................... 14
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As always, I was and remain utterly correct................. 16
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Subject: Threats & germer................................... 17
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DEF CON III Convention Update #1.80 (06.20.95).............. 22
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Connecticut Harassment law/what next?....................... 28
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Subject: Libel.............................................. 29
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Subject: Reply to Germer.................................... 30
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3. Fidonews Information.......................................... 31
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FidoNews 12-26 Page: 2 26 Jun 1995
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========================================================================
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Editorial
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========================================================================
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We have a large issue this week, with just about every
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article about lawsuits. How boring. Several of them suggest
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that anyone who sues within Fidonet should be given the quick
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heave, a position that I cannot agree with.
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Although we were have been threatened with suits twice now, I
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cannot really say that either threat worried me much. Normally,
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I would just print the threat, the same as any other letter "to
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the editor". The one, however, threatened a second suit if I
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made the first threat public<I am still laughing over that one>.
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I took that to mean the writer did not mean it for publication.
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Back to the topic, though.
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Lawsuits are between people. Individuals. The fact that one
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of the people is in Fidonet is quite irrelevant. Each one of us
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is responsible for controling ourselves, and if we cannot
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refrain from getting into mud-slinging matches by mail, then we
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should be willing to take the flack. Expecting the "fidogods"
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to overrule the courts of the particular country we live in is
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rather stupid. In Canada, it would probably gain one a contempt
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of court charge, and rightfully so.
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Over and over again I hear calls for exactly that. Kick out
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the offender. Invariably the calls are from a third party that
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claims to be acting to protect our freedom to belong to the net.
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I don't get it. Ignoring people is much simpler.
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hello! this is me. i wish i hadn't ever offended anyone
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ever, but, ... at least im not a homoganized glob and neither
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are you. i was actually playing with the notion of beginning to
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"edit" for real, and now i wish my pure virgin mind which had
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previously never imagined censoring anyone had never thought
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that thought!; er, her i go censoring my self agin. sigh.
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babblepseak: contempt of court being illegal is nonsensical. i
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thought trials were for trying ideas. wierd.
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========================================================================
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Articles
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========================================================================
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FidoNews 12-26 Page: 3 26 Jun 1995
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From: Tom Jennings <tomj@wps.com>
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To: Dallas Hinton <Dallas.Hinton@f715.n153.z1.fidonet.org>
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Subject: The times, they are not changing at all, apparently.
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Sigh.
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> The RC council and the Z1C have been discussing the current state
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> of FidoNet. We are not happy. The standard of behaviour of some
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> of those in FidoNet is simply not acceptable.
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...
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> The clean up process has already begun. Some *Cs have been
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> abusing their position by attempting to exercise imaginary powers
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> within FidoNet. They have already been replaced and there will be
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> more removed unless those problem *Cs wake up very quickly.
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I'll believe you are all sincere when you delete yourself when your
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moral purge is done.
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> Someone is bound to scream about "power mongers" and "control
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> freaks". Any *C who actually IS a control freak will be removed.
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What do you call what you are doing?
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> ... news of another *C resigning because someone
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> threatened to file a lawsuit if their echo wasn't getting enough
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> attention. That sort of nonsense is going to stop. Now.
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The emotional tone is patriotic and rousing, but likely impractical,
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as I believe it's this sort of chest-pounding that is the root
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cause. Besides, you'll probably find that trying to restrict people
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from their legal rights -- no matter how distateful or misdirected
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they are (yes, I've heard the horrors) -- will simply backfire on
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you.
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> In addition, any NC who is charging ANYTHING for issuing a node
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> number in FidoNet had better stop doing so. If I find out about
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> it, that NC will be removed as fast as I can type. FidoNet is now,
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> always has been, and always will be free in the spirit that Tom
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> Jennings intended.
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This I agree with 101%. This doesn't lend authority to the moral-purge
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though.
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> Policy 4 states (section 9.1), "Thou shalt not excessively annoy others".
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It also states, "thou shalt not be easily annoyed." This is actually
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more important than the first, oft-repeated one.
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flame {
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"Thou shalt not be easily annoyed."
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}
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> Effective immediately, "excessively annoying" will include (on
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> the first offence): threats (against life, limb, employment, etc),
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FidoNews 12-26 Page: 4 26 Jun 1995
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> abusive behaviour, and legal action or threats of legal action
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> regarding FidoNet matters. This is not an exhaustive list. If
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> someone manages to find a new way of being excessively annoying,
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> the *C chain will deal with them appropriately.
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Personally, I find very many of the /0's vastly, excessively,
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annoying, but I also think it is my (our) responsibility to FidoNet
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to refuse to become excessively annoyed. I wish others, especially
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the /0's, would do this.
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The self-appointed can do anything they like in FidoNet, as long
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as they keep in mind that the single criteria for being in the
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FidoNet Nodelist are technical. It is not restricted to anyone
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based upon behavior, personal history, legal status, how much you
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like them, etc. Even /0's are welcome.
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The troubles in the US FidoNet truly mirror the times, with partisan
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moral purges, chest-pounding, threats, back-stabbing, etc. Istead
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of worrying about the state of others houses, or worse, the inside
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of their heads, they did the same for themselves, it would be much
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better.
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I assume this is the list of co-conspirators. You might want to forward
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them a copy, for completeness.
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Randy Morgan (1:134/0)
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David Hays (1:138/0)
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Ken Read (1:140/0)
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Russ Johnson (1:152/0)
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Tony Bearman (1:153/0)
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Alex Stuart (1:340/0)
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Tom Hall (1:342/0)
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Bob Jones (1:343/0)
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Larry Juker (1:344/0)
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Susan Waters (1:346/0)
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Bill Parrott (1:347/0)
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Russ Crook (1:348/0)
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Steve Lea (1:349/0)
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Adolph Weidanz (1:350/0)
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Herb Addison (1:351/0)
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Rick Castle (1:352/0)
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Mauro Incrocci (1:353/0)
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Peter Stern (1:355/0)
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Les Lemke (1:356/0)
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Khile Klock (1:357/0)
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Laz Gottli (1:358/0)
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Roy DaCosta (1:359/0)
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David Anderson (1:3400/0)
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Wayne Gay (1:3401/0)
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Bruce Anderson (1:3402/0)
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Rob Jacobsen (1:3403/0)
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Rusty Stevens (1:3404/0)
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Patrick Jensen (1:3405/0)
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Carey Starzinger (1:3406/0)
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Vic Parrish (1:3407/0)
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FidoNews 12-26 Page: 5 26 Jun 1995
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John Lewin (1:3408/0)
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Steven Horn (1:3409/0)
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Dan Williamson (1:3410/0)
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Ada Willis (1:3411/0)
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Ralf Schulze (1:3412/0)
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Cameron Craig (1:3413/0)
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Alan Beck (1:3414/0)
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Cal Baker (1:3415/0)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
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A QUICK RESPONSE TO THE ARTICLE OF IGNORANCE WRITTEN BY BOB GERMER
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by Carl McCaskey
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Fidonet -- 1:3605/75 & 1:3605/316
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Internet -- mccaskey@symnet.net & mccaskey@freenet.fsu.edu
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I read Bobby's article in the last issue of Fidonews and quite
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frankly had a good laugh from it. Bobby's ignorance of what or
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what does not constitute libel is quite revealing. In fact, the
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overall impression one gets from reading his drivel is one of
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paranoia and delusions of grandeur.
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Anyway, I digress. I'll keep my responses to various portions of
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his diatribe as brief and to the point as I can.
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BG> Subject: Libelous Article In Fidonews
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<*chuckle*> Let's look at what Bob considers "libelous" shall we?
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BG> From: Bob Germer (8:950/10)
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BG> Mr. Tees and Ms. Maxwell:
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BG> An article appeared in the 6/6/95 issue of Fidonews which
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BG> contains at least four absolute lies and which also refers
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BG> to me as a fool.
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Whether or not you're fool is debatable, but not libelous.
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BG> Here are the specific lies contained in the article. The
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BG> words from the Fidonews are preceeded by the initials FN
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BG> for easy reference.
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BG> FN> Lot's has happened this week... A particular sysop who
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BG> FN> isn't even part of FIDO anymore, (he resigned in
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BG> FN> disgrace).... has
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BG> I did not resign in disgrace. This is an absolute lie and
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BG> libelous.
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All we have is one person's word against another's. If this is
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the best rebuttal (weak) you can come up with, then it won't
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convince any judge and/or jury.
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BG> FN> made a living hell for the real sysops of FIDO. Who is
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FidoNews 12-26 Page: 6 26 Jun 1995
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BG> FN> this sysop you may ask? Bob Germer of Region 8. (I
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BG> FN> believe this is family net).
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BG> This is another lie. I am not and never was a member of
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BG> anything called Family Net.
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Mistakes of fact does not automatically constitute a lie. Try
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again.
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BG> FN> This week he threatened Mike Fuchs with a lawsuit
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BG> FN> for allowing Z1_GERMER to be elisted, Mike Fuchs got
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BG> FN> tired of putting up with shitheads like germinator
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BG> FN> that are so cowardly
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BG> I am not a shithead. This is a lie and libelous.
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It is an _opinion_ and your charge of libel on this point
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would not stand up in court.
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BG> I am not a coward. As a decorated veteran, this is a most
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BG> serious libel.
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Again, this is a person's opinion and your charge of libel on
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this point would not stand up in court.
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BG> FN> The threats of lawsuits are uncalled for in FIDO...
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BG> FN> The first scum to do it was winter (lowercase intentional),
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BG> FN> now germinator. What has happened to FIDO? The *C structure
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BG> FN> refuses
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BG> I am not scum. This is a lie and libelous.
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Once again it is _opinion_ and your charge of libel on this
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point would also not stand up in court.
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BG> FN> about lawsuits and other legal actions. Hell, Planet Connect
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BG> FN> dumped germer's point status and is probably dumping his
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BG> FN> entire service. Planet Connect should be commended on not
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BG> FN> backing down from threats. While not everyone has the money
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BG> FN> that PC has that
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BG> This is another lie. Planet Connect is not "dumping his entire
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BG> service". This is likewise libelous.
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This charge of a lie is debatable since PC seems to have done just
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as you denied. However, once again, your charge of libel here
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would not stand up in court.
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BG> FN> should not be a prerequisate(sic?) to backing down...
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BG> FN> We should stand up to fools such as the germer's
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BG> FN> and teh winter's and make
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BG> I categorically state that I am not a fool. Unless one can
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BG> prove I am a fool, one has libeled me.
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FidoNews 12-26 Page: 7 26 Jun 1995
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Incorrect, Mr. Germer, there is no libel. On the person's opinion
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that you are a fool, your past actions, posts, etc. would
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possibly substantiate such an accusation of you being a fool in
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a court of law _IF_ (and I emphasize the word _IF_) the judge
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didn't automatically dismiss the charge on the same grounds as
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all of your previous frivolous and unfounded charges.
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BG> One who protects his or her rights as I have done and as I
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BG> will continue to do is not a fool; such a person is a wise
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BG> and responsible citizen.
|
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|
|
|
|||
|
|
No, Mr. Germer, any person who routinely _abuses_ the American
|
|||
|
|
judicial system with such frivolous and harassing suits as
|
|||
|
|
you have been threatening of late is unwise and irresponsible.
|
|||
|
|
The courts usually frown upon such trivial suits and tend to
|
|||
|
|
rule in favor of countersuits against those who abuse the legal
|
|||
|
|
system and waste the court's time, money and patience. I strongly
|
|||
|
|
suggest you obtain the services of a _competent_ attorney who
|
|||
|
|
specializes in libel and slander cases for it is obvious that
|
|||
|
|
either:
|
|||
|
|
a) your current attorney is feeding you bad legal advice (or
|
|||
|
|
you haven't consulted with counsel concerning libel) or
|
|||
|
|
b) you are deluding yourself in thinking you are competent in
|
|||
|
|
the subject of libel/slander.
|
|||
|
|
Either way, your points are quite weak and to pursue them in
|
|||
|
|
a court of law would open you up to some serious countersuits
|
|||
|
|
and possible judicial fines and penalties.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> FN> So basicly we need to impeach everyone & start from
|
|||
|
|
BG> FN> scratch as well as make provisions to keep scum who
|
|||
|
|
BG> FN> threaten lawsuits out of FIDO. Everyone has the right
|
|||
|
|
BG> FN> to be an asshole and voice their opinions, but the
|
|||
|
|
BG> FN> threats of frivolous lawsuits needs to be abolished.
|
|||
|
|
BG> FN> Also anyone making multiple PC's that are constantly
|
|||
|
|
BG> FN> rejected need to be ousted as well. Let's all make
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> Again I am libeled by being called scum and further libeled
|
|||
|
|
BG> again by being called an asshole.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Once again -- it wouldn't hold up in court.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> While one may categorize a suit to protect one's rights
|
|||
|
|
BG> "frivolous", that does not make it so. Using the law to
|
|||
|
|
BG> protect one's name and reputation when libelously attacked
|
|||
|
|
BG> is not frivolous.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
It is quite frivolous when one does not satisfy any of the legal
|
|||
|
|
requirements of proving libel as you have failed to do. Unless
|
|||
|
|
you can provide better evidence of where you have been adversely
|
|||
|
|
affected by what has been said about you (once again I emphasize
|
|||
|
|
this evidence must satisfy the legal standards for libel), your
|
|||
|
|
charges of libel would most likely be summarily dismissed as
|
|||
|
|
frivolous and trivial. On top of that, you would be more than
|
|||
|
|
likely subject to subsequent fines and other penalties for
|
|||
|
|
such violations. And to make matters worse, you would be subject
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 8 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
for a possible countersuit on the grounds of harassment, loss of
|
|||
|
|
salary, legal fees, etc.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> As Shakespeare (or at least I recall it being the
|
|||
|
|
BG> Bard of Avon) had one of his characters say "He who steals
|
|||
|
|
BG> my purse steals that which is worthless. He who steals my
|
|||
|
|
BG> good name steals that which enriches him not but which
|
|||
|
|
BG> empoverishes me absolutely."
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Which is totally irrelevant in light of civil law.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> Under the laws of the United States, one cannot call others
|
|||
|
|
BG> such names without facing sanctions.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I suggest you not try to pass yourself off as an authority on
|
|||
|
|
legal matters concerning libel/slander for you have already
|
|||
|
|
proven yourself to be quite ignorant.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> One cannot lie about another without placing the author
|
|||
|
|
BG> him or herself in jeopardy of criminal and/or civil
|
|||
|
|
BG> penalties.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Only if you are successful in proving all that needs to be met
|
|||
|
|
to satisfy the legal standards of slander. So far you haven't.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> The right of free speech does is not absolute.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
True. However, even calling someone names like "asshole",
|
|||
|
|
"coward", etc. is still protected as a free speech issue.
|
|||
|
|
Do the legal research instead of making such ignorant,
|
|||
|
|
foolish and erroneous charges as you have done in your
|
|||
|
|
diatribe.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> As Chief Justice John Marshall stated in one of the
|
|||
|
|
BG> Supreme Court's earliest "landmark" decisions, "The
|
|||
|
|
BG> right of free speech does not give one the right to
|
|||
|
|
BG> yell 'FIRE' in a crowded theater."
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
And this quote is quite irrelevant to all your charges.
|
|||
|
|
In short this standard of Justice Marshall's doesn't
|
|||
|
|
apply _at all_ to your charges. Once again you show
|
|||
|
|
your ignorance.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> Moreover, our laws protect ordinary citizens to a much
|
|||
|
|
BG> greater degree than recognized public figures. Persons
|
|||
|
|
BG> whose names, pictures, etc. are widely disseminated in
|
|||
|
|
BG> the public press DUE TO THEIR OWN ACTIONS SUCH AS
|
|||
|
|
BG> RUNNING FOR POLITICAL OFFICE, APPEARING IN MOVIES OR
|
|||
|
|
BG> TELEVISION SHOWS, APPEARING REGULARLY ON THE RADIO, etc.
|
|||
|
|
BG> must prove malice when bringing suit for libel.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Ordinary citizens must also prove a level of malice as well
|
|||
|
|
as several of points, none of which you have done. Also,
|
|||
|
|
if someone thinks that you are an asshole, a jerk, an idiot
|
|||
|
|
or any number of derogatory names, it is still free speech
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 9 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
(with the possible exceptions of where "fighting words" laws
|
|||
|
|
are applicable, but even then, it is very hard to prove).
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> Others do not have the burden to prove malice, they only need
|
|||
|
|
BG> prove the statement untrue.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
<*chuckle*> You know not of what you speak.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> And, in fact, the burden of proving the truth falls on
|
|||
|
|
BG> the author and publisher of the lies.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
<*chuckle*> Once again, you know not of what you speak.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> For example, newspapers have been found guilty of libel
|
|||
|
|
BG> for stating that someone committed a crime for which the
|
|||
|
|
BG> person was not convicted.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Please cite the case. [Also, this example is inapplicable to
|
|||
|
|
your charges.]
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> Newspapers have been held accountable for claiming a person
|
|||
|
|
BG> was a member of one group or another when in fact that was
|
|||
|
|
BG> not the case.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Please cite the case. [Also, this example is inapplicable to
|
|||
|
|
your charges.]
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> I don't know what the law is in Canada, but I am sure that
|
|||
|
|
BG> spreading lies about someone is not a permissible action.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Well since none of your charges so far would hold up in a
|
|||
|
|
U.S. court of law, most likely they would also fail in
|
|||
|
|
Canada.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> I am also sure that the publisher of a newspaper,
|
|||
|
|
BG> newsletter, etc. is not immune from suit for doing so.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Ah...a not-so-thinly-veiled threat. Pathetic.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> You have two options:
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Actually three.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> 1. You can publish an apology in each of the next five
|
|||
|
|
BG> issues and refrain from publishing anything which contains
|
|||
|
|
BG> any untrue statement about me, contains any article which
|
|||
|
|
BG> labels me a fool, scum, or any other derogatory term, etc.; or,
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> 2. You can continue to publish articles which libel me and
|
|||
|
|
BG> meet me in person in a court of competent jurisdiction.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
or,
|
|||
|
|
3. They can simply ignore you for it is obvious that you don't
|
|||
|
|
have a legal leg to stand on.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 10 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> Your expressed claim that you are not responsible because
|
|||
|
|
BG> it is your practice to publish anything submitted is NOT a
|
|||
|
|
BG> defense.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Since you don't have a case in the first place, the point is moot.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> In point of fact and law, it is an absolute admission of guilt.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
You are clueless when it comes to point of fact and law. You have
|
|||
|
|
shown your ignorance in your article.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> Mr. Tees not only expressed this verbally, I know I have read
|
|||
|
|
BG> it in the Fidonews in times past. I have every issue since you
|
|||
|
|
BG> took over and am sure I can produce it in court if necessary.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
_IF_ it _ever_ got to court, which it most likely never will.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> A copy of this letter is being sent to Mr. Tees via Certified
|
|||
|
|
BG> Mail, Return Receipt Requested. A copy will also be sent to
|
|||
|
|
BG> the appropriate ministry in Canada when I find the proper
|
|||
|
|
BG> name and address. I am unable at this time to send Ms. Maxwell
|
|||
|
|
BG> a copy via Certified Mail because I do not have her address.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
You do that. And hopefully those who receive your mail will place
|
|||
|
|
same in the most appropriate file -- the trash can.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> As the author pointed out in one of the few factual statements
|
|||
|
|
BG> made in the article, I am not a member of Fidonet.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Thank goodness for _small_ favors.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> I can be reached via the Internet at *********** or at
|
|||
|
|
BG> ************* from **M Eastern prevailing time until **M the
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[The *'s are placed for I feel that it's not worth it to dignify
|
|||
|
|
Bob's pathetic whinings by reposting his addresses.]
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> following day Eastern Prevailing Time Monday evening through
|
|||
|
|
BG> and including Friday and from Friday **M Eastern Prevailing
|
|||
|
|
BG> time until **M Eastern Prevailing Time Monday morning. On
|
|||
|
|
BG> weekdays from **M until **M, again both are Eastern Prevailing
|
|||
|
|
BG> Time, the same number can be used to send a facsimile
|
|||
|
|
BG> transmission.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
You're just not worth any more effort. Get a life, Bob, and get
|
|||
|
|
a clue. I don't even know you and I have formed an opinion that
|
|||
|
|
you're nothing but a whiny, abusive, petty little person (and I
|
|||
|
|
use the word "person" very loosely here for I question your
|
|||
|
|
existence as a homo sapiens) who is only happy when he can bully
|
|||
|
|
and intimidate. You're to be pitied, Bob, but not taken seriously.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
And with that, I bid you farewell,
|
|||
|
|
Carl McCaskey
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 11 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Subject: Russian objects to atheism in snooze <bleh>
|
|||
|
|
From: C I A (1:2623/71)
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
A Russian reader amazed by atheism in snooze
|
|||
|
|
by Mikhail Ramendik, 2:5020/261.10,ramen@pccross.msk.su
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
<snip>
|
|||
|
|
>The 'last bite' that made me write this was an article 'from Michael
|
|||
|
|
>Johnson' in No.5. The word 'f&^k' was actually used without special
|
|||
|
|
>characters, not only preventing SysOps from reading the snoozie to
|
|||
|
|
>their girlfriends, but openly insulting all the community!
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Hrmm, well, *I* don't have a problem with the word FUCK, and I am a
|
|||
|
|
woman. I don't know of too many mature adults offended by the word
|
|||
|
|
FUCK, EXCEPT christian fundamentalists..
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
>Otherwise I'd answer all the atheistic nonsense, because we
|
|||
|
|
>have heard it here from the Communist government for 75 years!
|
|||
|
|
>Atheism is indeed the source of communism, and communism acknowledges
|
|||
|
|
>this. So there is probably nothing the atheists can invent to attack
|
|||
|
|
>Christianity that the Russians do not know very well. Oh, if only
|
|||
|
|
>I had the feed...
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I find that hard to believe. I always pictured communism as being a
|
|||
|
|
RELIGION OF THE STATE rather then of a god. ya know, where the STATE
|
|||
|
|
is the supreme being. An atheist accepts NOTHIN higher then ones
|
|||
|
|
self - not state, not god, not nothin =)
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
>So I'd like to know - is FidoNet officially atheist-only? If not, is
|
|||
|
|
>religious discussion in the snooze okay? If yes, I'll be answering the
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I sure as hell HOPE NOT! We get enuf of the religious SPAM
|
|||
|
|
everywhere all over every net! Lets keep it out of the snooze -
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
>atheists there. For we in Russia have seen the consequences of atheism.
|
|||
|
|
>75 years of technical stagnation, millions of martyred people, and a
|
|||
|
|
>world war - this is what we paid for atheism! And personally I do not
|
|||
|
|
>want my fellow Fidonetters to pay the same price.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Don't blame athiesm (the ABSENCE of faith) for communisms problems -
|
|||
|
|
Communism is a flawed ideology, which has its roots in CHRISTIAN
|
|||
|
|
doctrine - not atheist!! Do atheists claim we are our brothers keeper?
|
|||
|
|
Do atheists demand obedience to some "authority" above ones own
|
|||
|
|
mind? Do atheists resort to force when an indivdual refuses to accept
|
|||
|
|
their ideas?? Only those perpetrating FRAUDS do that, such as
|
|||
|
|
christianity and communism...
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
" The alledged short cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only a short
|
|||
|
|
circuit destroying the mind"
|
|||
|
|
-Fellow (ex) Russian, Ayn Rand
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
CiA
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 12 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Subject: A Response to Bob Germer
|
|||
|
|
From: Christopher Adams
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Dear Mr. Germer,
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
You may have forgotten this, but Fidonet is just a hobby for most of
|
|||
|
|
us who read the Fido News. Many people find your style offensive, and
|
|||
|
|
would prefer not to hear from you again.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Your behavior in the REGION13 and NCRC13 echoes was offensive enough to
|
|||
|
|
cause the moderator (the Region 13 Coordinator) to expel you from the
|
|||
|
|
echoes. This does not seem to be the behavior of a calm, level headed
|
|||
|
|
person - it appears to be the behavior of someone crying out for any
|
|||
|
|
attention he can get.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I am offended by your threats to sue the editors of the Fido News
|
|||
|
|
because they published something not to your liking. Won't you let
|
|||
|
|
sleeping dogs lie? People don't want to hear from you - they want to
|
|||
|
|
be left alone. Just because someone calls you a Shithead does not mean
|
|||
|
|
that you are a Shithead. Can't you be man enough to ignore the idiots
|
|||
|
|
and act like an adult?
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
You said:
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
"One who protects his or her rights as I have done and as I will
|
|||
|
|
continue to do is not a fool; such a person is a wise and
|
|||
|
|
responsible citizen."
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
But there is always a limit to how one should protect his/her rights.
|
|||
|
|
Are you being caused financial harm because of this perceived libel?
|
|||
|
|
No. Is your reputation (among your peers) being harmed because of
|
|||
|
|
this difference of opinion? Probably not. So why don't you let this
|
|||
|
|
issue die down and let people forget the ill words written about you?
|
|||
|
|
This would seem to be the more socially acceptable and cost effective
|
|||
|
|
way of dealing with the problem.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Later in your message, you said:
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
The right of free speech does is not absolute. As Chief Justice
|
|||
|
|
John Marshall stated in one of the Supreme Court's earliest
|
|||
|
|
"landmark" decisions, "The right of free speech does not give
|
|||
|
|
one the right to yell 'FIRE' in a crowded theater."
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I do not believe it was Justice Marshall who said that - it's more
|
|||
|
|
akin to the phrasing of Justice Learned Hand. But we agree here.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
You then noted:
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Moreover, our laws protect ordinary citizens to a much greater
|
|||
|
|
degree than recognized public figures. Persons whose names,
|
|||
|
|
pictures, etc. are widely disseminated in the public press DUE
|
|||
|
|
TO THEIR OWN ACTIONS SUCH AS RUNNING FOR POLITICAL OFFICE,
|
|||
|
|
APPEARING IN MOVIES OR TELEVISION SHOWS, APPEARING REGULARLY ON
|
|||
|
|
THE RADIO, etc. must prove malice when bringing suit for libel.
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 13 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
However, you did put yourself into a semi public arena by being a
|
|||
|
|
participant in public echomail conversations. You could have used
|
|||
|
|
netmail for private replies. Instead you repeatedly used a public
|
|||
|
|
arena for your earlier missives. And as such, I don't believe that
|
|||
|
|
you are covered by the protection given ordinary private citizens.
|
|||
|
|
(There are few legal precedents which govern free speech and libelous
|
|||
|
|
free speech in cyberspace - is it worth the time and effort needed
|
|||
|
|
to test your viewpoint?)
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I, for one, would like to see this issue die. It may be in very
|
|||
|
|
bad taste for others to name a flame echo after you, but it only
|
|||
|
|
stokes the coals to threaten lawsuits at any minor excuse. Attacking
|
|||
|
|
the "editors" of Fido News is a sure way of angering people who
|
|||
|
|
never heard of you - and it makes you look bad for even bothering
|
|||
|
|
with their insults. I'd prefer it if all mention of your name were
|
|||
|
|
to cease in Fidonet, as I'm tired of old affairs and prefer to look
|
|||
|
|
towards the future. You are no longer a sysop in Fidonet. Let
|
|||
|
|
these people be - the problem will go away if you let it. Responding
|
|||
|
|
with greater bad taste only makes you look bad - why bother stooping
|
|||
|
|
to their level?
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Chris
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Subject: Legalities of FidoNet
|
|||
|
|
From: Wes Mills (1:124/2342.4)
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Ok, for all of you out there who want to sue us in FidoNet, I'm
|
|||
|
|
very sorry to do this, but, for lack of anything better to do, I
|
|||
|
|
have been going over the U.S. civil and criminal lawsuit laws,
|
|||
|
|
and I have this to say:
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
1) About the former ELIST: The list was maintained by Mike
|
|||
|
|
Fuchs. Therefore, Mr. Fuchs has the right to put anything in
|
|||
|
|
there he wants, or to remove anything he wants, ON A WHIM. It
|
|||
|
|
is copyrighted by him, therefore, the contents, when submitted,
|
|||
|
|
become his own. Other people merely accept the contents and
|
|||
|
|
<perhaps> pass them on UNMODIFIED. And, this also means that no
|
|||
|
|
one else can touch him. Take a look at books, which are
|
|||
|
|
copyrighted under the same regulations as the former ELIST. You
|
|||
|
|
can't sue the author to remove any inflamatory, vulgar, or
|
|||
|
|
culturally unacceptable wording, words, or content. By the same
|
|||
|
|
token, you CAN expect to have libelous, slanderous, and
|
|||
|
|
defamatory language removed, and in a timely manner.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
2) Let's see......About the FidoNews article in which Mr. Germer
|
|||
|
|
made his comment on supposed slanderous comments directed toward
|
|||
|
|
himself (FIDO1224). Umm, Mr. Germer: LIMITED RECOURSE. Ever
|
|||
|
|
heard of the First Amendment? Means that comments can be made
|
|||
|
|
about you, and you only have a limited recourse. You can expect
|
|||
|
|
an apology be made, but only in ONE issue, albeit in a prominent
|
|||
|
|
position. Also, ever heard of "The Tonight Show?" The host, Jay
|
|||
|
|
Leno, has some Judge Lance Ito look-alikes called "The Dancing
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 14 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Itos." They are intended to poke fun at and make fun (and some
|
|||
|
|
might call slanderous fun) of the honerable Judge Ito. However,
|
|||
|
|
Judge Ito has not brought any charges against Mr. Leno, even
|
|||
|
|
though Judge Ito knows the law to it's fullest extent. Does this
|
|||
|
|
say anything to you? Ito could, presumably, file a slander
|
|||
|
|
charge, AND WIN, but he doesn't, because he tolerates other
|
|||
|
|
opinions of himself and doesn't allow this to disturb him.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
3) Finally: It is _IMPOSSIBLE_ to sue FidoNet, as others have
|
|||
|
|
wanted others to believe, and they believe themselves. There is
|
|||
|
|
NO organization called FidoNet. "FidoNet" is merely a
|
|||
|
|
name/trademark copyrighted by one Tom Jennings, who is allowing
|
|||
|
|
that name/trademark to be used in conjunction with a
|
|||
|
|
non-incorporated group of amateur sysops. Now, there may be
|
|||
|
|
groups of those sysops who HAVE incorporated into a group, say
|
|||
|
|
called, Net290 (unknown if this network: exists, and, if so, is
|
|||
|
|
incorporated). You can sue that group, but there is no group
|
|||
|
|
called FidoNet. Would you care to list all sysops, users, RCs,
|
|||
|
|
ECs, RECs, ZCs, ZECs, and the IC on the defendant report? Ok,
|
|||
|
|
but you would be suing us in one big lawsuit, not suing FidoNet.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Hope this clears some of this idiocy caused in FidoNet by a Mr.
|
|||
|
|
Germer and a Mr. Winter. (I also notice that there are no
|
|||
|
|
persons with the title of Mrs. or Dr. causing the problems....)
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Wes Mills, a point sysop who would really like to see FidoNet
|
|||
|
|
stick around as he really doesn't like the Internet except that
|
|||
|
|
he works for an ISP desigining WWW pages.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Subject: What the hell is going on here?
|
|||
|
|
From: Chris Mai (1:141/1222)
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Hello FidoNews,
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Here we go again. I think I'll just grab my shovel and
|
|||
|
|
dive right into this ripe pile of fertilizer. I am truly
|
|||
|
|
grateful for the opportunity, for I have never seen such an
|
|||
|
|
enormous pile of dung in my entire life. First off, let me say
|
|||
|
|
political opinions of the Fido structure aside I applaud you,
|
|||
|
|
Mr. Jennings, for your reply in the June 12, 1995 Vol. 12 No. 24
|
|||
|
|
to the demands that you revoke your copyright. I think I would
|
|||
|
|
find it hard to reply so wittily and cheerfully after seeing
|
|||
|
|
some such nonsense.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Now that I have that out of the way, I would like to
|
|||
|
|
further libel Mr. Bob Germer: You are an idiot. How you can go
|
|||
|
|
on with such nonsense about libelous this that and the other
|
|||
|
|
thing is beyond my vast comprehension of the spacetime
|
|||
|
|
continuum. And the crap with threatening them with suits and
|
|||
|
|
such nonsense rivals even the rumored Steve Winters. (No
|
|||
|
|
disrespect, Mr. Winters, as I have never spoken with you but I
|
|||
|
|
have heard you have a bit of a "problem" and it seemed like a
|
|||
|
|
good example <grin>) You sound like a child saying "Don't hit
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 15 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
me, my Dad will sue you!". Grow up; the real world is full of
|
|||
|
|
nasty people saying nasty things, and just because you don't
|
|||
|
|
like the message doesn't mean you shoot the messenger. I also
|
|||
|
|
remember a great quote something to do with amputation of the
|
|||
|
|
external passage of one's sinus cavity despite their front
|
|||
|
|
cranial shell. (Cutting off your nose despite your face.) With
|
|||
|
|
that out of the way and the arthropod completely dislodged from
|
|||
|
|
my posterior, I'd like to move on to Don Dawson. Shall we?
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Tsk, tsk, tsk, Don. You gave me a great fright just as
|
|||
|
|
I finished reading your section of FidoNews. With your great
|
|||
|
|
attitude, and getting yourself arrested, I'm going to get shot.
|
|||
|
|
<g> As for never being rude to new sysops, what about the
|
|||
|
|
training bra incident? <g again> ahahaha (inside joke from
|
|||
|
|
GDASYSOP, don't ask B)) I just found out WHY you got removed
|
|||
|
|
from the nodelist and frankly I'm pretty pissed that something
|
|||
|
|
like that could happen. I pity poor Brian Bonfietti, Dan
|
|||
|
|
Wheeler, Bill Hausler, and Carl Kristoffersen (sp?) for having
|
|||
|
|
to put up with my constant crap and instigation. I certainly
|
|||
|
|
hope that everything is resolved, but I cannot believe you got
|
|||
|
|
arrested for harassment. That simply blows my mind. Who puts
|
|||
|
|
these people in charge of sections of FidoNet? These are the
|
|||
|
|
type of people they sedate and take away their shoelaces in the
|
|||
|
|
real world... Let's just hope Brian doesn't lose his temper with
|
|||
|
|
me and have *HIS* shoelaces taken away :) To make a long story
|
|||
|
|
short, I'd be glad to have you in my net Don, so if ya are
|
|||
|
|
interested freq SPORK from 1:141/1222 (shameless plug <eg>).
|
|||
|
|
You can do your mail any way you damn well please. I firmly
|
|||
|
|
believe in that, as with anything else. Go ahead, all of you;
|
|||
|
|
Ask Don if I give a damn about the way things SHOULD be done
|
|||
|
|
hehehe. Sooo... Being done with defending poor Don and the
|
|||
|
|
injustice dealt to him, I believe I'll move to the censorship of
|
|||
|
|
the InterNet (aka: Information Superhighway!).
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Mr. Carl McCaskey, how are you? Lemme just interject
|
|||
|
|
this little comment: Please name for me one instance of
|
|||
|
|
lawmaking where the congressmentals *DO* know what they are
|
|||
|
|
talking about. Did they live life in the middle class? Did
|
|||
|
|
they have to struggle without mommy and daddy's money? Maybe a
|
|||
|
|
couple. Maybe. But, a lot of them, together, pretending to
|
|||
|
|
know something, and thus a lot, about the same thing, which they
|
|||
|
|
know nothing in actuality, will get nothing accomplished, the
|
|||
|
|
bill will fizzle, and they will return to trying to learn to fly
|
|||
|
|
by throwing themselves at the ground and trying to miss.
|
|||
|
|
(slight paraphrase from Douglas Adams, my idol.) Still shoveling
|
|||
|
|
away!
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Mr. Rushing, I'd be careful :) Those CRACK-POTs might
|
|||
|
|
sue you WITHOUT having to be in a high-up position. Take poor
|
|||
|
|
Don for instance :) Luckily, the rest of the world sees the
|
|||
|
|
idiots much as yourself and I; idiots. Hmm... Where does that
|
|||
|
|
leave us. Ah yes, right at the beginning!! What's this? Oh my.
|
|||
|
|
I completely left out the part where I tell you all who the hell
|
|||
|
|
I am and what I'm doing taking up your screen space.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 16 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
My name is Chris Mai, of Trader's Village BBS
|
|||
|
|
1:141/1222. I have been a full-time SysOp since January 1st,
|
|||
|
|
1995 and had been setting up a bbs for about a year and a half
|
|||
|
|
prior. I'm a perfectionist about some things, and could care
|
|||
|
|
less about others. I like things my way, right away.
|
|||
|
|
Resistance is futile. I'm quite misunderstood at times, but I
|
|||
|
|
assure you most of my debates are purely for pleasure and to get
|
|||
|
|
things going in SysOp echoes. Right Gary? hehe anyway, I
|
|||
|
|
thought my annoyance, pessimism, optimism, cynicism, criticism,
|
|||
|
|
or whatever might cause some sort of intense pleasure,
|
|||
|
|
irritation, or even acceptability. Anyway, yes, I am a teenager.
|
|||
|
|
17 at the moment. However, please don't COMPLETELY discount my
|
|||
|
|
opinion; remember that us teenagers dont forget everything until
|
|||
|
|
we are 18, so I still know everything. Ask Tom Ruddy. To add
|
|||
|
|
further disgust and show my complete lack of decency and
|
|||
|
|
appropriatey (new word; read appropriateness), I'd like to throw
|
|||
|
|
in that I'm single and all female sysops between 15 and 29 feel
|
|||
|
|
free to drop a line :) Anyway, to finish things up, I'm just one
|
|||
|
|
of the many here (hopefully) who sees things going on now and
|
|||
|
|
again and calls them the absolute crock that they are. I
|
|||
|
|
certainly hope my little smartass remarks have brought at least
|
|||
|
|
a smile to your faces, as I know my good buddy Don Dawson will
|
|||
|
|
be falling on the floor LHAO about this whole situation.. p.s.
|
|||
|
|
Don, I thought at first you meant ME Chris would make a good
|
|||
|
|
REC. hehe Tom would probably disagree :) Anyway, that does it
|
|||
|
|
for me its time to end my little 100 line charade. See ya'll in
|
|||
|
|
the nets!
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Declaration of war... and Justice to the Hate,
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
From: Fredric Rice (1:102/890)
|
|||
|
|
As always, I was and remain utterly correct
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Fredric L. Rice
|
|||
|
|
1:102/890.0 (818) 335-9601
|
|||
|
|
tstream@centcon.com
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
When I first suggested the immediate ejection of any sister-
|
|||
|
|
fucker who spouts/threatens 'lawsuit' to FidoNet SysOps, the
|
|||
|
|
positive response was overwhelming and only one critic stepped
|
|||
|
|
forward publically in FidoNews to rebutt the Policy addition.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
At the time I warned that the spewers of ideological hatred
|
|||
|
|
would be the eventual death of FidoNet as a viable, useful
|
|||
|
|
hobby. They can't win an argument rationally because their
|
|||
|
|
positions of hatred are undefendable. They can't win in the
|
|||
|
|
courts but they're not _interested_ in winning: They rely upon
|
|||
|
|
the S.L.A.P.P. lawsuit -- intimidation and financial ruin to
|
|||
|
|
'win' their undefendable positions. The spewers of hatred
|
|||
|
|
know that the bright, positive, happy, fulfilled individuals
|
|||
|
|
they target will rightfully judge the effort of defense and
|
|||
|
|
quietly bow out.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 17 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
My fears have certainly been vindicated, haven't they?
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
As usual the religious zealots among us can't be happy with
|
|||
|
|
both the freedom and the enjoyment the rest of us experience
|
|||
|
|
in our hobbies (FidoNet is but one positive human achievement
|
|||
|
|
under attack by superstitious ignorants) and they've got to
|
|||
|
|
beshit and befoul the honest, loving, positive, hard-working
|
|||
|
|
among us due to their petty, religion-demanding hatred, spite,
|
|||
|
|
and resentment of all that's positive.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FidoNet mistake number 1 was the vote to disband the IFNA
|
|||
|
|
which could have been used to successfully counter
|
|||
|
|
the bastards among us.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FidoNet mistake number 2 was the abolishment of a yearly
|
|||
|
|
dues to be listed in the nodelist payable to the
|
|||
|
|
IFNA. These monies could have also been used to
|
|||
|
|
successfully counter the bastards among us.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FidoNet mistake number 3 is the continued lack of any Policy
|
|||
|
|
statement strictly forbidding the threats of legal
|
|||
|
|
actions, making the offense grounds for immediate
|
|||
|
|
ejection. All SysOps who wish to be listed in the
|
|||
|
|
nodelist is already supposed to read Policy 4 and,
|
|||
|
|
if they agree with the terms, submit their request.
|
|||
|
|
Any threat of legal action against another SysOp with
|
|||
|
|
the rule in effect would have been a clear violation
|
|||
|
|
of the agreement which resulted in connectivity.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FidoNet mistake number 4 is to continue to allow ejected
|
|||
|
|
individuals (and entire systems of individuals) access
|
|||
|
|
to FidoNet and even at times to allow ejected
|
|||
|
|
individuals back into the network. All decisions
|
|||
|
|
should be final. Joining gated 'alternative' nets
|
|||
|
|
should not bea loophole for allowing ejected fucks
|
|||
|
|
from still participating in FidoNet unhindered.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
0-=
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I want to see Policy 5 ammended and then voted upon. I want to
|
|||
|
|
see George Peace come back and I would like to see everyone
|
|||
|
|
petition Mike Fuchs to continue in his work and ask him to not
|
|||
|
|
let the perpetuators of hatred win.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
There's already enough hate-spewers winning in the real world.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Subject: Threats & germer
|
|||
|
|
From: RICK LITHGOW (1:2601/574)
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
This is respose to the recent post in FIDOnews by germer...
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG>
|
|||
|
|
BG> Subject: Libelous Article In Fidonews
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 18 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> From: Bob Germer (8:950/10)
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> * Original to: Donald Tees at 1:221/192
|
|||
|
|
BG> CC'd to: Sylvia Maxwell
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> Mr. Tees and Ms. Maxwell:
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> An article appeared in the 6/6/95 issue of Fidonews which
|
|||
|
|
BG> contains at least four absolute lies and which also refers to me
|
|||
|
|
BG> as a fool.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Opinions, we have the right to form opinions and state those opinions
|
|||
|
|
as we please... Just as you do..
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> Here are the specific lies contained in the article. The words
|
|||
|
|
BG> from the Fidonews are preceeded by the initials FN for easy
|
|||
|
|
BG> reference.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FN> Lot's has happened this week... A particular sysop who isn't
|
|||
|
|
FN> even part of FIDO anymore, (he resigned in disgrace).... has
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> I did not resign in disgrace. This is an absolute lie and libelous.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
You resigned, you're a disgrace... the latter is an opinion... Should
|
|||
|
|
we take a poll of region 13 and and others who've dealt with your
|
|||
|
|
rantings?
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FN> made a living hell for the real sysops of FIDO. Who is this
|
|||
|
|
FN> sysop you may ask? Bob Germer of Region 8. (I believe this is
|
|||
|
|
FN> family net).
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> This is another lie. I am not and never was a member of anything called
|
|||
|
|
BG> Family Net.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Actually your bbs and phone number were in the Familynet nodelist...
|
|||
|
|
I have over 5 unaltered nodelists from familynet that shows you in
|
|||
|
|
it... I have been informed though you havent actually used that node
|
|||
|
|
num for a long time and it was just cleaned out. My apologies to
|
|||
|
|
Familynet and all their sysops..
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FN> This week he threatened Mike Fuchs with a lawsuit
|
|||
|
|
FN> for allowing Z1_GERMER to be elisted, Mike Fuchs got tired of
|
|||
|
|
FN> putting up with shitheads like germinator that are so cowardly
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> I am not a shithead. This is a lie and libelous.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Matter of opinion...
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> I am not a coward. As a decorated veteran, this is a
|
|||
|
|
BG> most serious libel.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
You are a coward. Proof: Threats of lawsuits instead of dealing with
|
|||
|
|
the situation like an adult.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FN> The threats of lawsuits are uncalled for in FIDO... The
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 19 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FN> first scum to do it was winter (lowercase intentional), now
|
|||
|
|
FN> germinator. What has happened to FIDO? The *C structure refuses
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> I am not scum. This is a lie and libelous.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
opinion... One I'm sure shared by many others...
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FN> about lawsuits and other legal actions. Hell, Planet Connect
|
|||
|
|
FN> dumped germer's point status and is probably dumping his entire
|
|||
|
|
FN> service. Planet Connect should be commended on not backing down
|
|||
|
|
FN> from threats. While not everyone has the money that PC has that
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> This is another lie. Planet Connect is not "dumping his entire
|
|||
|
|
BG> service". This is likewise libelous.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Hehehe .... I said probably... .
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FN> should not be a prerequisate(sic?) to backing down... We should
|
|||
|
|
FN> stand up to fools such as the germer's and teh winter's and make
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> I categorically state that I am not a fool. Unless one can prove
|
|||
|
|
BG> I am a fool, one has libeled me.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
You are a fool in my opinion and I'm sure alot of other peoples.. Again...
|
|||
|
|
It's an opinion and one brought on by the actions of yourself.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> One who protects his or her rights as I have done and as I will
|
|||
|
|
BG> continue to do is not a fool; such a person is a wise and
|
|||
|
|
BG> responsible citizen.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Protecting your rights is one thing... Threating lawsuits like a
|
|||
|
|
coward until you get your way is another. As to libel should I
|
|||
|
|
discuss when you called me a thief for pulling in USENET off of
|
|||
|
|
planet connect and then a liar? Especially when I pay for it?
|
|||
|
|
Cough... Cough.... How about the phony lawyers name you sent. "Hymen
|
|||
|
|
R. Gottlieb". One such as yourself who've mad anti-semitic statements
|
|||
|
|
such as calling somneone who's Jewish "Ovenbait" is not likely to
|
|||
|
|
have a Jewish atty. But on the off chance you did have an atty. by
|
|||
|
|
that name I had both my lawyers check on that name and there is No
|
|||
|
|
Hymen R. Gottleib practicing in the state of NJ. Nor licenced to
|
|||
|
|
practice there. This is according to my 2 lawyers.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FN> So basicly we need to impeach everyone & start from
|
|||
|
|
FN> scratch as well as make provisions to keep scum who threaten
|
|||
|
|
FN> lawsuits out of FIDO. Everyone has the right to be an asshole
|
|||
|
|
FN> and voice their opinions, but the threats of frivilous lawsuits
|
|||
|
|
FN> needs to be abolished. Also anyone making multiple PC's that are
|
|||
|
|
FN> constantly rejected need to be ousted as well. Let's all make
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> Again I am libeled by being called scum and further libeled
|
|||
|
|
BG> again by being called an asshole.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I was reffering to scum and asshole in general... Did I mention your
|
|||
|
|
name in that paragraph??
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 20 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> While one may categorize a suit to protect one's rights
|
|||
|
|
BG> "frivilous", that does not make it so. Using the law to protect
|
|||
|
|
BG> one's name and reputation when libelously attacked is not
|
|||
|
|
BG> frivilous. As Shakespeare (or at least I recall it being the
|
|||
|
|
BG> Bard of Avon) had one of his characters say "He who steals my
|
|||
|
|
BG> purse steals that which is worthless. He who steals my good name
|
|||
|
|
BG> steals that which enriches him not but which empoverishes me
|
|||
|
|
BG> absolutely."
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
This isn't shakespere and in my opinion to to injustice to anyone
|
|||
|
|
with the name Germer... My apologies to all else with that last name..
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> Under the laws of the United States, one cannot call others such
|
|||
|
|
BG> names without facing sanctions. One cannot lie about another
|
|||
|
|
BG> without placing the author him or herself in jeopardy of
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I have the right to voice my opinions... Again, I refer you to the
|
|||
|
|
PC_SITES echo in which you called me a thief and a liar... I have not
|
|||
|
|
lied about you and I can not face santions for something that's
|
|||
|
|
covered by my first ammendment rights...
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> criminal and/or civil penalties.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Puuuuhhleeese
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> The right of free speech does is not absolute. As Chief Justice
|
|||
|
|
BG> John Marshall stated in one of the Supreme Court's earliest
|
|||
|
|
BG> "landmark" decisions, "The right of free speech does not give
|
|||
|
|
BG> one the right to yell 'FIRE' in a crowded theater."
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Noone yelled fire, nor cause panic....
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> Moreover, our laws protect ordinary citizens to a much greater
|
|||
|
|
BG> degree than recognized public figures. Persons whose names,
|
|||
|
|
BG> pictures, etc. are widely disseminated in the public press DUE
|
|||
|
|
BG> TO THEIR OWN ACTIONS SUCH AS RUNNING FOR POLITICAL OFFICE,
|
|||
|
|
BG> APPEARING IN MOVIES OR TELEVISION SHOWS, APPEARING REGULARLY ON
|
|||
|
|
BG> THE RADIO, etc. must prove malice when bringing suit for libel.
|
|||
|
|
BG> Others do not have the burden to prove malice, they only need
|
|||
|
|
BG> prove the statement untrue. And, in fact, the burden of proving
|
|||
|
|
BG> the truth falls on the author and publisher of the lies.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
You are well known in FIDO which is in itself an organzation and the
|
|||
|
|
echoes associated directly/non-directly with it... All comments by me
|
|||
|
|
and anyone else on this network or it's associated/non-associated
|
|||
|
|
conferences(whether regional or backboned) have been kept here...
|
|||
|
|
Noone ran to the newspaper or gossib columnist and said anything
|
|||
|
|
about you...
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> For example, newspapers have been found guilty of libel for
|
|||
|
|
BG> stating that someone committed a crime for which the person was
|
|||
|
|
BG> not convicted. Newspapers have been held accountable for
|
|||
|
|
BG> claiming a person was a member of one group or another when in
|
|||
|
|
BG> fact that was not the case.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 21 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FIDOnews published what I stated... And it published "MY OPINIONS"....
|
|||
|
|
Sorry....They will not be held liable...
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> I don't know what the law is in Canada, but I am sure that
|
|||
|
|
BG> spreading lies about someone is not a permissible action. I am
|
|||
|
|
BG> also sure that the publisher of a newspaper, newsletter, etc. is
|
|||
|
|
BG> not immune from suit for doing so.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
They did nothing wrong..
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> You have two options:
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> 1. You can publish an apology in each of the next five issues
|
|||
|
|
BG> and refrain from publishing anything which contains any untrue
|
|||
|
|
BG> statement about me, contains any article which labels me a fool,
|
|||
|
|
BG> scum, or any other derogatory term, etc.; or,
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
In my opinion you are a fool and a coward. If you have to resort to
|
|||
|
|
threats in order to get your way, in my opinion then you are a fool
|
|||
|
|
and a coward...
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> 2. You can continue to publish articles which libel me and meet
|
|||
|
|
BG> me in person in a court of competent jurisdiction.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Puuuhhhhhhhhhhhhlllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssseeeeeeeeeeee!
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> Your expressed claim that you are not responsible because it is
|
|||
|
|
BG> your practice to publish anything submitted is NOT a defense. In
|
|||
|
|
BG> point of fact and law, it is an absolute admission of guilt. Mr.
|
|||
|
|
BG> Tees not only expressed this verbally, I know I have read it in
|
|||
|
|
BG> the Fidonews in times past. I have every issue since you took
|
|||
|
|
BG> over and am sure I can produce it in court if necessary.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
They publish what they feel is newsworty, nothing more, nothing less..
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> A copy of this letter is being sent to Mr. Tees via Certified
|
|||
|
|
BG> Mail, Return Receipt Requested. A copy will also be sent to the
|
|||
|
|
BG> appropriate ministry in Canada when I find the proper name and
|
|||
|
|
BG> address. I am unable at this time to send Ms. Maxwell a copy via
|
|||
|
|
BG> Certified Mail because I do not have her address.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BG> As the author pointed out in one of the few factual statements
|
|||
|
|
BG> made in the article, I am not a member of Fidonet. I can be
|
|||
|
|
BG> reached via the Internet at BGermer@IBM.NET or at
|
|||
|
|
BG> 8:950/10@RBBSnet from 6PM Eastern prevailing time until 8AM the
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I feel sorry for RBBSnet...
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Rest Deleted for brevity...
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Rick Lithgow, rlith@pcms.com. Moderator BOCA_MODEMS/CO-Mod TWIT
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 22 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
DEF CON III Convention Update #1.80 (06.20.95)
|
|||
|
|
August 4-6th 1995 @ the Tropicana in Las Vegas
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX DEF CON III Convention Announcement
|
|||
|
|
XXXXXXXxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX DEF CON III Convention Announcement
|
|||
|
|
XXXXXXxxxxxxXXXXXX X X DEF CON III Convention Announcement
|
|||
|
|
XXXXXxxxxxxxxXXXXXXX X DEF CON III Convention Announcement
|
|||
|
|
XXXXxxxxxxxxxxXXXX XXXXXXXXX DEF CON III Convention Announcement
|
|||
|
|
XXXxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXX X DEF CON III Convention Announcement
|
|||
|
|
XXxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXX XX X DEF CON III Convention Announcement
|
|||
|
|
XXXxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXX DEF CON III Convention Announcement
|
|||
|
|
XXXXxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXX X XX DEF CON III Convention Announcement
|
|||
|
|
XXXXXxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXX XX X DEF CON III Convention Announcement
|
|||
|
|
XXXXXXxxxxxxXXXXXXXXX X DEF CON III Convention Announcement
|
|||
|
|
XXXXXXXxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX DEF CON III Convention Announcement
|
|||
|
|
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX X DEF CON III Convention Announcement
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
This is an initial announcement and invitation to DEF CON
|
|||
|
|
III, a computer convention for people interested in various
|
|||
|
|
aspects of computer culture. The emphasis is on problems caused
|
|||
|
|
by rapid computerization of businesses and the private sector.
|
|||
|
|
Illegitimate computer access, fraud, privacy concerns, and
|
|||
|
|
encryption technology will be covered in two days of talks by
|
|||
|
|
respected industry professionals. Special talks by "hackers"
|
|||
|
|
will present conflicting perspectives and allow for mixed round
|
|||
|
|
table discussions. This combinations of both forces in
|
|||
|
|
computing today will offer to shed light on ideas that all too
|
|||
|
|
often given only a slanted presentation by the popular media.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
WHEN: August 4, 5, 6 - 1995
|
|||
|
|
WHERE: Las Vegas, Nevada at the Tropicana Hotel
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Building on the success of DEF CON II, we try to provide
|
|||
|
|
information and speakers in a forum that can't be found at other
|
|||
|
|
conferences. People come to DEF CON for information and for
|
|||
|
|
making contacts. We strive to distinguish this convention from
|
|||
|
|
others in that respect.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
What's been said about the previous conventions can be found in
|
|||
|
|
the New York Times (July 25, 1994), Business Week (August 1994),
|
|||
|
|
Info World, Boardwatch (October 1994), The National Law Journal.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
The Tropicana has rooms reserved for the convention. Check-in
|
|||
|
|
is 3pm, check-out time is 12 noon. Remember there is an 8%
|
|||
|
|
sales tax in Vegas. Register yearly, only 100 rooms were blocked
|
|||
|
|
for sure. After that it is subject to availability.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
65$ Single or Double room, Midweek (Monday - Thursday)
|
|||
|
|
90$ Single or Double room, Weekend (Friday - Sunday)
|
|||
|
|
350$ One-Bedroom Suite (Call for Availability)
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
The Tropicana, 3801 Las Vegas Blvd. So., Las Vegas, Nevada, 89109
|
|||
|
|
(702) 739-2581 or (800) 468-9494 or (702) 739-2448 (Fax)
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 23 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Held in three conference rooms at the Tropicana hotel in Las
|
|||
|
|
Vegas, DEF CON will be interesting and informative. There will
|
|||
|
|
be presentations by specialists in their fields, technical
|
|||
|
|
discussions, infamous and well known videos, mini-seminars on
|
|||
|
|
specific topics, a cu-see-me video conference set up on a t1 net
|
|||
|
|
connection, and many impromptu contacts to be made.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
The Tropicana is located right on the "Strip" with the other
|
|||
|
|
three corners of the street occupied by the MGM Grand (Largest
|
|||
|
|
hotel in the world), the Excalibur, and the Luxor. If you can
|
|||
|
|
afford it stay for a couple extra days and see the sights.
|
|||
|
|
There is plenty to do in town if you have never visited. Comdex
|
|||
|
|
does not count as a visit.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
COSTS
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
The price of admission will be 30$ in advance or 40$ at the door.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Friday August 3rd
|
|||
|
|
Registration and getting to know people
|
|||
|
|
Main Convention Room South Pacific Ballrooms
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Time Event
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
10:00 Convention room opens, registration begins.
|
|||
|
|
: Informal demonstrations and getting acquainted through
|
|||
|
|
: out the day.
|
|||
|
|
:
|
|||
|
|
: Network/video/voice bridge up
|
|||
|
|
:
|
|||
|
|
15:00 BATTLE TECH At Virtual World (Buy tickets in advance or at the con)
|
|||
|
|
: Two hours of total combat! 1/2 Battle Tech, 1/2 Red Planet.
|
|||
|
|
:
|
|||
|
|
18:00 SJG's "Hacker" game with the "Hacker II" expansion. The Mastah'
|
|||
|
|
: Haqah play off for the most elite hacker player. Get your group
|
|||
|
|
: together for the hard-core old-school back-stabbing hack attack
|
|||
|
|
: from hell! There can be only one!
|
|||
|
|
:
|
|||
|
|
24:00 Hacker Jeopardy with Winn Schwartau starts, Round #1
|
|||
|
|
:
|
|||
|
|
02:00 Convention room closes up for the day.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Saturday August 4th
|
|||
|
|
Convention begins 10:00 in South Pacific Ballrooms
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Time Event
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
10:00 Key note speech by ()
|
|||
|
|
: Winn Schwartau - Tempest Videos / Year in Review
|
|||
|
|
: Robert Steele - TBA
|
|||
|
|
: Jim Settle - TBA
|
|||
|
|
: Bruce Schenier - Cryptography
|
|||
|
|
: Curtis Karnow - Legal
|
|||
|
|
: Lewis De Payne - How to hack more professionally
|
|||
|
|
15:00 Lunch/Dinner Break Begins
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 24 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
:
|
|||
|
|
17:00 Evening Sessions Start at 17:00
|
|||
|
|
: Theora and Crew - TBA
|
|||
|
|
: CPSR - Round Table
|
|||
|
|
: EFF - Legal Implications
|
|||
|
|
: Peter Frank - TBA
|
|||
|
|
: Chris Hall - Spy Stuff
|
|||
|
|
21:00 Evening Sessions End at 21:00
|
|||
|
|
:
|
|||
|
|
:
|
|||
|
|
24:00 Hacker Jeopardy with Winn, Round #2, and Final Jeopardy Round.
|
|||
|
|
: "
|
|||
|
|
02:00 Convention room closes up.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Sunday August 5th
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Time Event
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
10:00 Oscar Meyer - How to Hack, or, Toilet Training to Maturity
|
|||
|
|
: Roscoe - How to hack more professionally
|
|||
|
|
: Len Rose - TBA
|
|||
|
|
: Peter Skelly - TBA
|
|||
|
|
: Stepehn Cobb - "Why Hacking Sucks"
|
|||
|
|
: Parmaster - General history of the underground
|
|||
|
|
14:00 Lunch Break Starts at 14:00
|
|||
|
|
:
|
|||
|
|
15:30 Evening Sessions Start at 15:30
|
|||
|
|
: Koresh - TBA
|
|||
|
|
: Susan Thunder - Psychological Subversion of Trusted Systems
|
|||
|
|
: Tagger - Mag Stripe Readers/Writers
|
|||
|
|
: Dead Addict - TBA
|
|||
|
|
18:00 The Convention Ends, Final give aways, awards, and goodbye!
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
SPEAKERS
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
This is a partial list of speakers for this year. More are
|
|||
|
|
being invited or waiting to make plans. As this list changes
|
|||
|
|
further announcements will be made. This should give you a
|
|||
|
|
flavor or what to expect, though.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Two of the Speakers, Susan Thunder and Roscoe both are written
|
|||
|
|
about in the book "Cyberpunks." I suggest you go buy it and read
|
|||
|
|
it if you can, it will give you a better perspective about what
|
|||
|
|
they are all about.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Bruce Schneier, Author of "Applied Cryptography." TOPIC: Will
|
|||
|
|
speak on issues surrounding cryptography, digital
|
|||
|
|
authentication, digital cash, and will answer questions from
|
|||
|
|
the audience.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Winn Schwartau, Author of "Information Warfare" and "Terminal
|
|||
|
|
Compromise" is a consultant to government and the private
|
|||
|
|
sector regarding enterprise and national security concerns.
|
|||
|
|
TOPICS: "Information Warfare, the year in review" (Comedic)
|
|||
|
|
and "Tempest Attack Videos."
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 25 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Len Rose AKA Terminus. After the legal fiasco Len faced
|
|||
|
|
years ago (as partially chronicled in "The Hacker
|
|||
|
|
Crackdown.") this will be his first chance to speak of his
|
|||
|
|
experiences without the threat of having his parole revoked.
|
|||
|
|
TOPIC: TBA
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Lewis De Payne, aka "Roscoe" TOPIC: Ultra Hacking - Beyond
|
|||
|
|
Computers: How to make your hacking more successful and
|
|||
|
|
productive while minimizing risk. Learn how to adopt a
|
|||
|
|
business-like strategy, planning your goals, focusing your
|
|||
|
|
strategy and keeping you out of trouble!
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Curtis Karnow, former federal prosecutor and attorney
|
|||
|
|
focusing on intellectual property litigation and computer
|
|||
|
|
law. TOPIC: Agents in the telecommunications context, and
|
|||
|
|
"smart" software that we 'trust' to do the Right Thing. The
|
|||
|
|
specific issue is legal liability and responsibility for the
|
|||
|
|
actions of intelligent agents, and then spinning off to chat
|
|||
|
|
about the liability for artificial intelligence generally.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Robert D. Steele, President of OPEN SOURCE SOLUTIONS, Inc. A
|
|||
|
|
former Spy, Experienced Bureaucrat, Radical Visionary.
|
|||
|
|
Tofflers call him the "rival store" to CIA. Keynote Speaker
|
|||
|
|
at HOPE, Workshop at Hac-Tic '93. TOPIC: TBA
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> The Electronic Frontier Foundation. TOPIC: The EFF will
|
|||
|
|
cover current legal threats privacy and computer information
|
|||
|
|
networks.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Stephen Cobb. TOPIC: "The Party's Over: Why Hacking Sucks."
|
|||
|
|
Stepehen intends to play "devil's advocate" and suggest that
|
|||
|
|
"hacking should not be tolerated in any shape or form as it
|
|||
|
|
serves no useful purpose and is a menace to society."
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Jim Settle, ex-FBI computer crime division department head.
|
|||
|
|
TOPIC: TBA
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Oscan Meyer. TOPIC: How to Hack - Toilet Training to
|
|||
|
|
Maturity.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Peter Skelly. TOPIC: SMS and wide area networking.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Tagger. TOPIC: Magnetic stripe card reader-writers and the
|
|||
|
|
"Mod-700."
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Dead Addict. "Too tired for slack." TOPIC: TBA.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Theora. TOPIC: "Don't you hate it when that happens?"
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Karen Coyle, CPSR, and a pannel of friends. TOPIC: TBA.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Peter Franck, National Lawyers Guild. TOPIC: TBA.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Parmaster, ex-MOD member, General history of the underground.
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 26 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Glenn Campbell, Area 51 and "Dreamland" authority. TOPIC: Q
|
|||
|
|
& A, overview of Governmental activities and stuff.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Attidute Adjuster. TOPIC: "Extremely technical machine
|
|||
|
|
language discussion on Polymorphic computer viruses, with a
|
|||
|
|
side note on cryptography uses."
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Susan "Thunder" of "Cyberpunks" fame. TOPIC: Social
|
|||
|
|
Engeneering and Psychological Subversion of Trusted System.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Pete "To much coffee man" Shipley, unix stud. TOPIC:
|
|||
|
|
Security audits, how they are performed and what to look for.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
[> Koresh, unix hacker and conspiracy theorist supreme. TOPIC:
|
|||
|
|
TBA.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Speakers will be talking Saturday and Sunday, and maybe Friday
|
|||
|
|
depending.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
TELEPHONE CONFERENCE BRIDGE (801-855-3326)
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
For DEF CON III there will be a dial in conference set up. If
|
|||
|
|
you are overseas, or just can't make the convention this year,
|
|||
|
|
you can still get an idea of what is going on and participate.
|
|||
|
|
One part of the voice conference equipment will allow you to
|
|||
|
|
listen to the convention room microphone, another will allow you
|
|||
|
|
to ask questions during the Q&A sections of peoples speeches. A
|
|||
|
|
general conversation area will be up so you can chat with others
|
|||
|
|
at the convention, or just others dialed into the bridge.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
BOOTHS and EXHIBITS and SPONSORSHIP and GIVE-AWAYS
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
There is table space available if you or your company is
|
|||
|
|
interested in showing off or selling your latest product. A
|
|||
|
|
separate room will have tables set up, and are available on a
|
|||
|
|
first come first served basis.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
There is also room available in the convention program for you
|
|||
|
|
or your company to advertise their latest and greatest. This is
|
|||
|
|
also first come, first served.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
If you or your company is interested in sponsoring a speaker you
|
|||
|
|
receive a table and an advertisement in the program.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
If you are interested in either table space or advertising or
|
|||
|
|
sponsoring a speaker please contact Phil at (206) 236-6802 and
|
|||
|
|
he will provide you with a package explaining the costs and
|
|||
|
|
options available.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
DEF CON is also looking for product to give away in the raffle.
|
|||
|
|
If your company wants to donate a few copies of their product to
|
|||
|
|
be given away we will be happy to promote it verbally before it
|
|||
|
|
is given away. Software, hardware, books, magazines, etc. would
|
|||
|
|
be examples.
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 27 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
MORE DEF CON INFORMATION
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
The World Wide Web Page is located at: http://www.defcon.org/
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FTP Site: ftp.fc.net /pub/defcon
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Mailing lists: mail majordomo@fc.net with the following
|
|||
|
|
statement in the body of your message: "subscribe dc-announce"
|
|||
|
|
This will set you up on the mailing list and you will receive
|
|||
|
|
updated information, information on the other mailing lists
|
|||
|
|
offered, etc. I suggest joining the dc-stuff list just so you
|
|||
|
|
can talk and plan with other people going to the con to
|
|||
|
|
coordinate rides, sharing of rooms, etc.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
VOICE OR VOICE MAIL - Planning: 206-453-1006
|
|||
|
|
VOICE OR VOICE MAIL - Advertising: 206-236-6802
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FAX: 206-453-9567
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
E-Mail: dtangent@defcon.org
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Snail Mail: 2709 E. Madison #102, Seattle, WA, 98112
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
INFORMATION ABOUT LAS VEGAS
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
WWW PAGES about Las Vegas, Hotels, Things to do, etc.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
HTTP://www.infi.net:80/vegas/online/
|
|||
|
|
HTTP://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~iew/index.html
|
|||
|
|
HTTP://www.best.com/~rdc/roger/vegas.html
|
|||
|
|
HTTP://www.intermind.net/las.vegas.on-line/homepage.html
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Previous Convention Items
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
DEF CON I Tapes (4) include the following speakers:
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Curtis Karnow: Legal Implications of failure in complex VR systems.
|
|||
|
|
Ray Kaplan: To Hack or not to Hack, that is not the question.
|
|||
|
|
Gail Thackeray: Search and seizure, the roll of "computer cops," and Q&A
|
|||
|
|
Dead Addict: The future of hacking.
|
|||
|
|
Dark Druid (Busted by Gail Thackeray): Getting raided sucks.
|
|||
|
|
Judi Clark of the CPSR: What you can do the become active in the community.
|
|||
|
|
Dan Farmer: Inherient security problems in networks,and a bit on SATAN.
|
|||
|
|
Dr. Mark Ludwig: Let virii live.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
DEF CON II Tapes (10) include the following speakers:
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Phillip Zimmermann : Keynote Speaker, PGP.
|
|||
|
|
Gail Thackeray : Response to Mr. Zimmermann and Privacy issues.
|
|||
|
|
Chris Hall : Electronic Surveillance.
|
|||
|
|
Curtis Karnow : Recombinant Culture, Crime in the Digital Network.
|
|||
|
|
Dr. Mark Ludwig : Virus Creation Awards and What to do when the Feds come.
|
|||
|
|
Judi Clark, Mara, Fen and Marianne in a Round Table Discussion.
|
|||
|
|
The Dark Knight : Hacking in the UK
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 28 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Sara Gordon, Mark Aldrich, Phil Zimmermann: Internet & PGP privacy concerns.
|
|||
|
|
Annaliza (Torquie) : The European Underground scene.
|
|||
|
|
Mark Lottor : Various cellular topics.
|
|||
|
|
Winn Schwartau : HERF guns, Van Eck, Information Warfare
|
|||
|
|
Peter Beruk : The role of the SPA, general Q&A.
|
|||
|
|
Padgett Peterson : Anti-Virus writing, Cleaning up other peoples messes.
|
|||
|
|
The Jackal : A basic radio overview with Q&A.
|
|||
|
|
Artimage : Underground spoof and give aways.
|
|||
|
|
Stephen Dunifer : Radio Free Berkeley and pirate media.
|
|||
|
|
Damien Thorn : Random Cell information from the late night tech talks.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Stuff is for sale from DEF CON I and II in case you are
|
|||
|
|
interested. From the first year we have audio tapes (4 90
|
|||
|
|
minute tapes) for $20 and the second year (10 90 minute tapes)
|
|||
|
|
for $30. Tee Shirts are still availabe from last year for $20,
|
|||
|
|
they are white and long sleeve.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
SHIPPING : Please include 3.00 for priority shipping.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Connecticut Harassment law/what next?
|
|||
|
|
Al Filandro 1:141/885, 1:141/1885@Fidonet, cygnus@pcnet,cygbear@free.org
|
|||
|
|
Connecticut Computer Harassment law passes
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I was recently shocked to learn that my state passed the
|
|||
|
|
nations First computer/network "anti-harassment" bill into law.
|
|||
|
|
The reason for my shock stems from the fact that I do not see
|
|||
|
|
how this law can be either enforced or outlined. What is
|
|||
|
|
harassment on a computer? If I received phone-calls or
|
|||
|
|
snail-mail of a harassing nature, I may deem fit to take issue
|
|||
|
|
BUT computers, BBSs and the internet have always been
|
|||
|
|
self-governed entities with their own set of rules governing
|
|||
|
|
behavior.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
For instance, my first experiences with BBSs back in
|
|||
|
|
1983 were probably typical of many youths. I called a local BBS
|
|||
|
|
also run by youths whereby we partook in "bitch wars"...flaming
|
|||
|
|
each other and sometimes going overboard in the things we said.
|
|||
|
|
I guess you could consider it harassment if you wanted to: a
|
|||
|
|
bunch of kids with handles flaming each other in a message base
|
|||
|
|
each trying to out-do the other. Even today, on my BBS and
|
|||
|
|
probably every-other in America and abroad, there are kids 12-16
|
|||
|
|
leaving little "stabs" at their friends', foes and acquantences.
|
|||
|
|
Personally, I find not-too much wrong with this along as its
|
|||
|
|
done in good fun but now this kind of activity is seemingly
|
|||
|
|
bordering on harassment.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
What is harassment? On a computer-network such as
|
|||
|
|
Fidonet or Internet, just about ANYTHING can be misconstrued
|
|||
|
|
into being harassment. For instance, how many times have you
|
|||
|
|
posted a message to someone in an echo or whatever and someone
|
|||
|
|
misinterpreted your words? I remember so many instances where
|
|||
|
|
this has occured to me throughout the years. What about the
|
|||
|
|
Internet..how does a State-law encompass a worldwide network
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 29 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
into its realm? I shudder to think what would happen if our
|
|||
|
|
Governor ever were to go on to something like Lambdamoo and
|
|||
|
|
subscribe to a couple of "mailing lists" there or partake in
|
|||
|
|
conversation with some of the more-bigoted people that frequent
|
|||
|
|
there. What, also, happens when the brand-new SysOp gets his
|
|||
|
|
first logoff "hatemail" that states 'You suck and your board
|
|||
|
|
sucks'....Is that harassment? What happens when a user
|
|||
|
|
inadvertantly uploads a file that has a virus in it...that can
|
|||
|
|
be looked at as harassment too even if it was of no-fault of the
|
|||
|
|
user.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
It is sad to me that our representatives, congresspeople
|
|||
|
|
and law enforcement authorities are...for the most part...still
|
|||
|
|
so out of touch with the realities of Computer-networks. BBS's
|
|||
|
|
have been around since 1978 and "The Internet" was opened up to
|
|||
|
|
universities in 1983 and yet you still here this quabble from
|
|||
|
|
our leaders about this new thing called the Internet and
|
|||
|
|
Cyberspace and how we need to regulate it.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
The reason I am so opposed and upset about this law is
|
|||
|
|
not that I don't empathize with those who have been legitimately
|
|||
|
|
"harrassed", but rather because there are two factors which make
|
|||
|
|
this law into a possible blind-justice/witch hunt law. If those
|
|||
|
|
in power are so apparently ignorant to online-computer-networks,
|
|||
|
|
how can they possibly create or enforce laws based on them?
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Al Filandro
|
|||
|
|
Fidonet 1:141/885
|
|||
|
|
cygnus@pcnet.com
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Subject: Libel
|
|||
|
|
From: Brad Crockett (1:340/201)
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Hello Donald!
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Sure, the last thing that you wanted to read was more about this
|
|||
|
|
libel stuff. However, I thought that I might have something to
|
|||
|
|
offer you...
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I just went through a bit of a scare myself. Recently, some
|
|||
|
|
members of Duncan city council made a decision to clear cut a
|
|||
|
|
park after a windstorm brought down a few trees. The whole city
|
|||
|
|
is really mad at them, and had demanded that they restore the
|
|||
|
|
park and resign. But, city council went ahead and ordered the
|
|||
|
|
park planted with grass. With the incredible pressure to make
|
|||
|
|
land available to developers in this town, it seemed as if some
|
|||
|
|
people were getting bought out to make land available.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I wrote a letter to the editor of our local newspaper
|
|||
|
|
insinuating that perhaps someone had their pockets lined. The
|
|||
|
|
paper printed it, and shortly after the paper received a letter
|
|||
|
|
from the city's lawyer telling them that the letter was
|
|||
|
|
defamatory and that they had better print a retraction and lay
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 30 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
off in the future. The lawyers sent me a copy of the letter -
|
|||
|
|
if they hadn't I would never have known about it - the letter
|
|||
|
|
did NOT print a retraction.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I looked up slander and libel in my law text, and sure enough,
|
|||
|
|
what I had written was defamatory and would get me on the wrong
|
|||
|
|
end of a judgement if it went to court EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT
|
|||
|
|
IT WAS POLITICIANS INVOLVED.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I don't think that a court of law would look at Bob Germer as a
|
|||
|
|
politician, so it's not likely that someone publishing a
|
|||
|
|
defamatory statement could use the defense of 'fair comment'.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
I hate to say it, but I think that Bob is correct - the stuff
|
|||
|
|
that has been printed in the snooze is often libelous. As a
|
|||
|
|
matter of fact, a good deal of the content of most of the echos
|
|||
|
|
is libelous!
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Someone in the snooze suggested that each Fido participant
|
|||
|
|
partake in some sort of 'waiver' which excludes them from the
|
|||
|
|
right to take legal action for defamation. That would certainly
|
|||
|
|
make it easier to edit the snooze, but, I think, it would also
|
|||
|
|
encourage flaming.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
(Hey - maybe we could reduce flaming by ENCOURAGING libel suits!)
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Anyway, at the risk of appearing to be another 'enemy of free
|
|||
|
|
speech', I would like to say that I would not miss it if you
|
|||
|
|
were to edit out all of the defamatory stuff that gets submitted
|
|||
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to the snooze. I'm sure that it would encourage more excellent
|
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articles - I get tired of all this legal stuff!
|
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|
Brad
|
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|
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|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
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|
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|
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|
|
Subject: Reply to Germer
|
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|
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|
|
Dear Editor,
|
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|
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|
|
The Only reply Bob Germer should recieve towards his article
|
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about libel etc. is:
|
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|
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|
|
"Bob, Shut the hell up!"
|
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|
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|
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|
|
Heheheh, just thought you might want to hear from one reader who
|
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|
|
enjoys your efforts and thinks that Bob's got Brown eyes if you
|
|||
|
|
know what I mean! :)
|
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|
|
|
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|
|
Furthermore, HOW does one know where a message came from? YOU
|
|||
|
|
DON'T, Bob may THINK he knows where fido messages come from, but
|
|||
|
|
anyone can pretend to be anyone else out here. I can setup any
|
|||
|
|
mailer, I can setup any BBS system, I can use a hex editor and
|
|||
|
|
change serial numbers or reg numbers to pretend to be anyone I
|
|||
|
|
choose. Also, you can poll someone's feed just as they would,
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 31 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
and get all the SEEN-BYEs you want to try an make it even more
|
|||
|
|
authentic as to where a message came from. Also, if you try
|
|||
|
|
tracking someone down, and ask someone's feed in a court of law
|
|||
|
|
"DID YOU SEE THIS MESSAGE COME FROM THIS PERSON'S SYSTEM? DID
|
|||
|
|
YOU HAVE CALLERID TO KNOW IT WAS HIS NUMBER?" Let's face it,
|
|||
|
|
there are even ways to make CALLERID come up with someone's
|
|||
|
|
number. In short, court cases against electronic mail don't
|
|||
|
|
amount to shit.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Laters All,
|
|||
|
|
The Mail Demon
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
========================================================================
|
|||
|
|
Fidonews Information
|
|||
|
|
========================================================================
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
------- FIDONEWS MASTHEAD AND CONTACT INFORMATION ----------------
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Editors: Donald Tees, Sylvia Maxwell
|
|||
|
|
Editors Emeritii: Thom Henderson, Dale Lovell,
|
|||
|
|
Vince Perriello, Tim Pozar
|
|||
|
|
Tom Jennings
|
|||
|
|
"FidoNews" BBS
|
|||
|
|
FidoNet 1:1/23
|
|||
|
|
BBS +1-519-570-4176, 300/1200/2400/14400/V.32bis/HST(DS)
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
more addresses:
|
|||
|
|
Don -- 1:221/192, don@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca
|
|||
|
|
Sylvia- 1:221/194, max@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
(Postal Service mailing address)
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews
|
|||
|
|
128 Church St.
|
|||
|
|
Kitchener, Ontario
|
|||
|
|
Canada
|
|||
|
|
N2H 2S4
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
voice: (519) 570-3137
|
|||
|
|
sylvia: (519) 579-8029
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Fidonews is published weekly by and for the members of the FIDONET
|
|||
|
|
INTERNATIONAL AMATEUR ELECTRONIC MAIL system. It is a compilation
|
|||
|
|
of individual articles contributed by their authors or their
|
|||
|
|
authorized agents. The contribution of articles to this compilation
|
|||
|
|
does not diminish the rights of the authors. Opinions expressed in
|
|||
|
|
these articles are those of the authors and not necessarily those of
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Authors retain copyright on individual works; otherwise FidoNews is
|
|||
|
|
Copyright 1995 Donald Tees. All rights reserved. Duplication
|
|||
|
|
and/or distribution permitted for noncommercial purposes only. For use
|
|||
|
|
in other circumstances, please contact the original authors, or the eds.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 32 26 Jun 1995
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
OBTAINING COPIES: The most recent issue of FidoNews in electronic
|
|||
|
|
form may be obtained from the FidoNews BBS via manual download or
|
|||
|
|
Wazoo FileRequest, or from various sites in the FidoNet and Internet.
|
|||
|
|
PRINTED COPIES may be obtained by sending SASE to the above paper-mail
|
|||
|
|
address.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
INTERNET USERS: FidoNews is available via FTP from ftp.fidonet.org,
|
|||
|
|
in directory ~ftp/pub/fidonet/fidonews.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
Anyone interested in getting a copy of the INTERNET GATEWAY FAQ may
|
|||
|
|
freq GISFAQ.ZIP from 1:133/411.0, or send an internet message to
|
|||
|
|
fidofaq@gisatl.fidonet.org. No message or text or subject is
|
|||
|
|
necessary. The address is a keyword that will trigger the automated
|
|||
|
|
response. People wishing to send inquiries directly to David Deitch
|
|||
|
|
should now mail to fidonet@gisatl.fidonet.org rather than the
|
|||
|
|
previously listed address.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
SUBMISSIONS: You are encouraged to submit articles for publication in
|
|||
|
|
FidoNews. Article submission requirements are contained in the file
|
|||
|
|
ARTSPEC.DOC, available from the FidoNews BBS, or Wazoo filerequestable
|
|||
|
|
from 1:1/23 as file "ARTSPEC.DOC". Please read it.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
"Fido", "FidoNet" and the dog-with-diskette are U.S. registered
|
|||
|
|
trademarks of Tom Jennings, and are used with permission.
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
' ' disgreement is actually necessary,
|
|||
|
|
or we'd all have to get in fights
|
|||
|
|
or semethin to amuse ourselves,,
|
|||
|
|
and create the requisite chaos."
|
|||
|
|
-Tom Jennings
|
|||
|
|
-- END
|
|||
|
|
---------------------------------ooh----------------------------------
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
|
|||
|
|
|