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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, May 8, 1990, 10:00 p.m. eastern time
Topic:  AppleFest discussion
Forum Leader:  Dave Sugar  (AFL Dyfet)

AFL Dyfet  This is Applefest night...Documentation was moved to the end of
           the month :)
AFL Dyfet  Who here was at Applefest last weekend??
MikeE22    I was.
Tamira     ::Hand raised::
AFL Dyfet  What did you think of the show, Mike...?
AFL Scott  I was at AppleFest, all day Saturday.
MikeE22    Would have been nice if Apple was there.
DangardAce I went all three days and all I got was some lousy sweatshirts.
           :)
MikeE22    But ByteWorks made up for it. and the exhibtors seemed happy.
DangardAce ByteWorks (Mike) said this was his best Fest (financially) ever.
Tamira     got some software...and literature and a few other things
AFL Dyfet  I know we (AO) was pretty happy too at the show :)
AFL Dyfet  (for booth turnout)
AFA Gary J Have you been to any previous Applefests, Mike?
MikeE22    SanFran last fall, was my first one. I live in Omaha, Nebrasa.
MikeE22    oops, Nebraska.
AFL Scott  I was happy.  People were enthusiastically buying things.  It's a
           great thing
AFL Scott  to see!
Tamira     Yes   AO got a lot of people stopping by,......iother than AO'ers
           that is
DangardAce AO had the coolest hospital lounge.
DangardAce Uh, hospitality.
AFL Dyfet  I was particularly impressed with Barney Stone's DB Master
           demo...
Tamira     yea  it was good wasn't it ???
MikeE22    Yes, I got DB Master Pro. But that Ram Fast card was sure
           impressive.
Rob Morgan any other a// greats?
AFL Scott  TurboRez!!!!!
AFA Gary J (I hear Matt supported AppleFest... Yeah Matt!)
DangardAce Yes, Matt was there.
AFL Dyfet  Since Scott has mentioned it, how many other lucky campers got to
           see Turbo-Rez
AFL Dyfet  at the Tri-state booth??
DangardAce I did, I did, I did.
Rob Morgan Does turbo inprove all graphics?
DangardAce Well, you should think of TurboRez more as an additional graphic
           mode more
DangardAce than an improvement of existing graphics.
AFL Scott  Agree, Ace!
DangardAce However, GS graphics can be written to the card..
MikeE22    Looked like TurboRez was a real card this time. and was
           impressive.
Rob Morgan So, it has to be written for the card?
Tamira     It was really good tho
AFL Scott  Overlayed, underlayed... animated on top, under...
AFL Dyfet  And Sprites...
AFL Scott  and really a very, very cool looking display!
AFL Dyfet  I believe the card also has hardware scrolling, and does have
           horizontal, as
DangardAce They plan to let the card interface to certain QuickDraw
           primitives.
AFL Dyfet  well as scan line, screen partitioning.
AFA Parik  when is turborez coming online for a chat scott?  
MikeE22    Scott, and the bumble bee was pretty too.
Rob Morgan Now, if somebody would support the software.
AFL Scott  Second week of July, Parik.  At that time they will announce
           whether TurboRez
AFL Scott  will be a go or no go.
Airship    Don't let him get to you Gib, I've been restraining myself too.
DangardAce The TurboRez is a honey.  Think of it as adding VGA to your GS.
Rob Morgan muck it to death!
AFA Parik  vga? hah!! much more than vga
Tamira     I thought the vbee was cute  :)
DangardAce With 32,768 colors I don't think I'd have any trouble picking good
           colors
DangardAce for a blood and guts picture.
AFL Scott  Depends on how you want to do it, Ace.  If you want 256 colors you
           still have
AFL Scott  to decide just which of the 256 you need to use (out of the
           32768).
Airship    <=- already saving for a turbo rez board. Planning ahead this
           time.
Rob Morgan somebody tell Sierra about it please!
DangardAce Sure wish those Virtual guys would resurface, though.
AFA Gary J TurboRez sounds good.  I just hope it becomes popular enough for
           developers
AFA Gary J to write for, and develop as a standard.
AFA Parik  here's hoping Apple may pick up the turborez card.
DangardAce Here's hoping Synnovation stays afloat long enough for them to
           consider it!
AFL Dyfet  I think the problem with Turbo-rez being common-place is that it
           will be a 
AFL Dyfet  little pricey...
DangardAce They won't go with Ingenuity now, what with their identity crisis
           and all that.
A GibberFC How bout AE???? <grin>  Then it would get real pricey
AFL Scott  (me too, David).
AFA Parik  how many colors on a screen at any given moment?
Rob Morgan How much is it?
Airship    Pricey, and unreliable :(
A GibberFC <---- wants 45,000,000,000,000 on screen at once.....
A GibberFC I don't ask for much
AFL Scott  They don't know, yet, Rob.  Shoot people...it's only a
           prototype.
MikeE22    $400 - $500 for Turbo Rez card.
AFA Gary J ouch
Tamira     OUCH!!!!!!
MikeE22    At least that's what there handout said.
AFL Scott  2048 colors at once.
AFL Scott  They don't even know how much it's gonna cost to build.
AFA Gary J Too high to make it commonplace among GS users.
Airship    That and a 1 GHz CPU and I'll be happy.....for a week or so.
A GibberFC just like the Transwarp <grin>
Rob Morgan so it's not in any production yet.
JoySchtick How can you tell what speed chip you have in your TWGS????
Coach101   In the upper right corner of the TWGS is a little silver,
           rectangular,
Coach101   can.  It is the oscillator...   Divide the MHZ by 4 to get the
           speed
Coach101   of your TWGS...   Speed rating of the 65816 chip is immaterial... 
           AE was
Coach101   for a while pushing the chips beyond the rated speeds...
A GibberFC Actually... if you have Appleworks GS 1.1 then go under the apple
           menu
A GibberFC and choose About AWGS...with the option key held down... that will
           tell you
JoySchtick Okay, thanks
DangardAce I'm worried about AE.  
Airship    A co, with a service dept that has a busy phone all the time is a
           bad sign.
Rob Morgan anything herd on the 20 mhz chip?
A GibberFC 20mzh... Yeah.... Ok.. tell me another story
JohnC154   dream on
AFL Dyfet  No, Rob, but the hand-held scanners for the IIgs were at the
           show...
Rob Morgan the 20 65816.
JoySchtick <-- got a Quickie.  Now waiting for the new software.
Coach101   The 20mhz chip is waiting on the 16-bit Apple II bus....   :)
Rob Morgan I've got the quickie.
AFL Dyfet  My favorite was 'Quickie', too...
AFL Dyfet  We even got it to digitize off tee-shirts!
AFA Gary J :)
JoySchtick I liked the picture quality of the Lightening Scan but Vitesse
           said their s/w
JoySchtick will do better.
Rob Morgan did the improve the photo mode yet?
Rob Morgan try it, it's depressing :(
DangardAce I kept wondering why the LightningScan guy kept scanning the same
           pics over
DangardAce and over.
JoySchtick Rob, b/w are depressing, color pics that are scanned look much
           better.  :)
JoySchtick We tried everything we could get near the scanner.  
JoySchtick Er, almost everything.  :)
DangardAce I also did a great picture of Sculley with AppleWorks GS and the
           Quickie.
JoySchtick DangardAce is an artist, just takes time   :)
DangardAce I think that the LightningScan guy had all the scans predone on a
           hard drive :)
Tamira     I need to get the Scan Man...Have a MAC....but almost $400 is a
           little much
Rob Morgan did you try text?
JoySchtick Yes Rob
AFL Scott  Anyone got a ship date on DesignMaster?
AFL Scott  (I've ordered it)
MikeE22    Mike said late May.
AFL Dyfet  Mike was talking 3 to 6 weeks, Scott...
MikeE22    I got it on order at the Fest, along with my updates.
Coach101   Does DesignMaster edit existing resource forks?
AFL Dyfet  I don't believe so, Coach...that was it's one weekness...
DangardAce No, only Genesys.
JoySchtick <-- loves Genesys!  Still buggy though  :(
AFA Gary J How about Genesys?  Does it edit after the fact?
Coach101   I love "buggy" programming tools  :)
AFA Parik  yes gary
AFA Parik  how is genesys buggy?
Coach101   With Genesys's lateness, I will wait till I hear reports it is
           really
Coach101   out before plunking any money donw..
JoySchtick I bombed big time in the window editor.  Got some errors that I
           reported
JoySchtick to Michael.
Airship    They're comming along fast and furious with the updates on
           Genesys.
JoySchtick Its worth the bucks Coach.
AFL Dyfet  Genesys only began 'shipping' officially on May 4th (at
           Applefest)
DangardAce Still using AC, AS?
Coach101   But it was "premeired" at the last May AppleFest....
DangardAce And rewritten up until now.
Airship    Yep. I'm considering beginning a transistion to Orca Pascal
           though.
DangardAce Do it, dude! Orca supports the FPE and has decent FP libraries.
DangardAce And OrcaPascal is compatible with Zaplink now. :)
Airship    I'm hip deep in new projects though. I want to reach a stopping
           place before
Airship    I get serious.
JoySchtick <-- just moved over to Orca Pascal, bought it at AFest.
Doctor Why and they've fixed their interfaces.  :)
Airship    Satelite Tracker GS will probably be my first Pascal release.
A2GS       What type of program is that? Or does the name speak for itself?
Airship    Pretty much. Plots the paths of Earth satelites and predicts
           over-fly times...
Airship    Tonight's Sky GS is coming along great! I can't wait to show it
           off.
Airship    ...that sort of thing.
A2GS       Airship, have you considered plotting the trajectory of passing
           Comets, etc...
Airship    A2GS, check out Comet Finder GS in either the AED or astronomy
           forums :)
AFA Parik  any exciting news from WWDC
Coach101   Thats your cue Matt....
Matt DTS   Well...
Matt DTS   ...at an Apple II Feedback Forum about an hour ago, Don Casey
           dropped in.
Matt DTS   (He's now responsible for Apple's new focus on the Apple II.)
Matt DTS   He said, more or less as a direct quote, that "Apple has shot
           itself in the foot with the positioning
Matt DTS   of the Apple II, and we're not going to shoot ourselves in the
           foot anymore."
AFA Parik  ()()() Don
A GibberFC does that mean that there will be a repositioning of the Apple II
           line??/
JoySchtick But will he follow through?  We've heard so much and seen so
           little.
AFL Scott  Hurray!!!!!!!!!
A2GS       Well Pete, That's the exact opposite of what the "Mac Guy" said
           yesterday!! :)
AFL Scott  Does this mean that Nancy Stark and Jane Lee are out of the
           picture?
AFL Dyfet  Give Matt a chance to reply...
AFL Marty  "We blew it."
Coach101   Let Matt finish...  Please
AFA Gary J Yes... :)
Matt DTS   If you don't think Jane Lee and Nancy Stark are on your side,
           you're just stupid in the head.
Matt DTS   Sorry to be so blunt, folks, but I know these people and you have
           no idea what they do for Apple
Matt DTS   II owners within Apple.  Why do you think Nancy's name is one of
           them in the IIgs ROM?
Matt DTS   As for what else it means, that's beyond my scope.  The executives
           can decide when something is no
Matt DTS   longer confidential.  I can't.
A2GS       Yeah, Matt, for once we both agree on something which belongs in
           the GS' ROM!!!
A GibberFC Matt, I have met Jane and I know she is on our side....
A GibberFC I was just wondering if there might be a reposition of the apple
           II in the 
A GibberFC line up
A GibberFC That is all
AFA Parik  how many AII developers attended today Matt?
Matt DTS   The number of AII developers is always small at the WWDC.  The
           conference is expensive and mostly
Matt DTS   Macintosh-oriented.  We're focusing on Kansas City and on reaching
           Macintosh developers here with good
Matt DTS   messages like "You can make Apple IIgs products from Macintosh
           ones more easily than you think."
AFA Parik  KANSASFEST!  KANSASFEST!  KANSASFEST!  sorry.  :) (excited about
           GS College!)
DangardAce It's good to hear more positive stuff from within Apple, at any
           rate.
Coach101   Matt, how small is "small at WWDC"?
Matt DTS   I don't have exact numbers.
DangardAce The College of GS Knowledge.. it sounds like a honey. :)
A2GS       That's a GREAT way to improve development on the GS!!
A2GS       Let's hope Mac software houses listen.
AFA Gary J Yes.
Coach101   Can you show up for one day, and "pay at the door"?
DangardAce Are there separate areas for Apple II and Mac, or do they share
           the same
DangardAce areas just different days?
A2GS       Don't you have to be a "Certified Developer"?
A2GS       To attend the WWDC conferences?
Matt DTS   You have to be an Apple Partner to have been invited.  There is
           some on-site registration; I'm not
Matt DTS   familiar with the details.
Matt DTS   Most of the Apple II sessions will be tomorrow.
A2GS       Can you give us an idea of what will be covered?
Coach101   The promo's from Apple mentioned some "big announcement" in the
           Mac
Coach101   communications area.  Was it made?  What was it?
Matt DTS   Sorry guys, but I was tired and just trying to answer a little
           question about what happened at WWDC.
Matt DTS   I really didn't expect to need to be an information booth and
           don't have that stuff here.
AFL Marty  Do you have any info about the GS College that will be held the
           day...
AFL Marty  before the A2 Central Developers' Conference?
DangardAce Uh oh, dangerous territory.
AFA Parik  marty - talk to sarah, she knows a bit more know.  very
           interesting.  a msg on
AFA Parik  GENie left a lot more info on it.  (sorry, can't remember
           details)
AFL Marty  Will do.  Thanks Parik.
AFA Parik  "Apple IIgs system softwrae update, IIgs graphic & animation
           techniques,
AFA Parik  sounds spectacular, NEW APPLE IIGS SOUND TOOLs, Apple IIgs
           programming for the
AFA Parik  1990s, Apple IIgs programming Strategies, 2 for 1, parallel
           development, and
AFA Parik  advanced Apple IIgs debugging."  those are the AII sessions for
           tommorow.
Matt DTS   I think GEnie and A2-Central are the only people to ask about
           Kansas.
AFL Marty  Some of us AO folks are going, too. :)
A GibberFC That is ok, Matt.... I am just glad that you show up around
           here.
A GibberFC :)
Nuzz       I don't know if anyone has said this here, but I'd like to thank
           Matt for 
Nuzz       attending AppleFest and spreading his usual good will.
AFA Parik  also SSSi will be at WWDC tommorow selling genesys if ya missed it
           at Afest.:)
Hackz      Hi I'm from SSSi!
Hackz      We aren't at WWDC!
Hackz      Tim Swihart is showing Genesys
Hackz      :)
A2GS       While the place is crowded...."Believe it or not"....I've got a Q
           relating
A2GS       to programming.....
A2GS       Anyone have any ideas on creating an UNDO routine for a paint
           program, I've 
A2GS       only come up with one solution but it uses a substantial amount of
           machine
A2GS       cycles.
A2GS       Anyone????
AFA Gary J A2, I've seen some paint programs do it by writing to two screens
           at one time.
A2GS       Yes Gary, but how does one keep track of the previously made
           changes to the
A2GS       display screen?
AFA Gary J When the user selects the next mouse stroke, It the last plot is
           copied to
AFA Gary J the other screen.
AFA Gary J (I think the old Koala Pad illustrator did it that way)
A2GS       So in other words every time something new is added to the display
           screen, the
A2GS       screen is copied before the change is made.  Correct?
AFA Parik  do you mean a undo that reaches beyond 1 step backwards?
AFA Gary J That's if you're working in a paint type mode.
A2GS       I am.
A2GS       And that was the only solution I could think of, I'm looking for
           a
A2GS       better/faster one, if one exists.
AFA Parik  since the whole screen could change you're gonna haveta do that
           a2gs.  ;( bye
AFA Parik  john/et al
A2GS       That's what I thought, but you never know  :)
AFA Gary J If you are working in some kind of "draw" mode (as opposed to
           paint), you can
AFA Gary J keep track of types of plots, and just erase them.
A2GS       Nope, more like a paint program, can't to that?
AFL Scott  You don't have to change the whole picture.... just save the
           rectangular area
AFL Scott  where you drew before you draw.  Then keep it in a buffer.  When
           Undo is
AFL Scott  clicked just move that area back but not before you save what was
           there first.
A2GS       That's an idea, but might be difficult to implement at this stage
           in the
A2GS       program.
AFL Scott  That way you can undo an undo.  I've done it.  It's not that hard.
           
A2GS       You haven't seen my program  :)
A2GS       In fact, that's the best idea I've heard so far :)
Nuzz       But then it's not an Undo, it's a ReDo
AFL Scott  Simple menu item change!:))
A2GS       No, it's an UNDO, it backs up one step.
AFA Gary J But if you do what Scott suggests, it can also be a ReDo.
AFA Gary J (Toggle it back and forth)
AFL Scott  Yup.
Coach101   And, it is generally called a ReDo at that stage!
A2GS       That usually goes for any UNDO routine.
AFL Scott  Gary's got the picture!:)
AFA Gary J :)
A2GS       Ouch Scott!!!
A2GS       :)
AFL Marty  (holy recursion, Batman!)
AFL Scott  Remember that to follow the guidelines correctly, you should
           always tell the
AFL Scott  user what he's undoing or ReDoing.
JoySchtick Oh gad!  Now we have to tell the user too????   :)_
AFA Gary J You can UnDo a Redo, or ReDo an UnDo.
Nuzz       Ah, but if you Undo a ReDo that WAS an UnDo, then it;s a Undo-Redo
           :)
Coach101   Why is it "Undo" and "ReDo"  (note capitalization) ?  :)
AFL Scott  It's especially important for paint programs.
JoySchtick and if you goof, then you just plain have a doodoo
AFA Gary J (It's all the same :)
AFA Gary J heheh
AFL Scott  Same routine... Really... I just change the undo menu item...:)
Coach101   And it is well known that "doodoo occurs" :)
AFL Marty  WhoDo UnDo a ReDo or ReDo an UnDo?
AFA Gary J Yes, Scott.  Coach :)
AFA Gary J I do.
AFL Marty  UDo?
Nuzz       I'm glad that's cleared up..
AFA Gary J Udo2?
Coach101   Whos on first?
AFL Scott  LOL!:)
A2GS       Crystal clear  :)
Tamira     as mud
AFL Marty  First thing that's ever made sense to me here :)
MikeE22    Crystal Clear Quest?
AFL Scott  Paint programs ain't easy... despite popular myth.  Something
           always pops up
AFL Scott  to make them more difficult than they should be.
Tamira     LOL
A2GS       Well, it all depends on how you go about writing it.
AFL Scott  That's true with anything, A2.:)
A2GS       You could go insane if you try figuring out the tools and how to
           get them to
A2GS       work together within a paint program...but on the other hand...if
           you do
A2GS       everything with custom code...who knows??  Someday you may see 
           :)
AFL Scott  Same here, A2... Someday. :)
A2GS       The day may be sooner then you think (I hope :)
AFA Gary J Anyone know when AppleFest SF is?  (Or if there is?  Or if it's
           in SF? :)
AFA Gary J (I plan on being there)
MikeE22    about Sept. 14.
A2GS       14-16
AFA Gary J Sept 14-16.  (putting on my calendar)
AFA Gary J :)
A2GS       I'm definitely gonna show at the show.
AFL Marty  The guy who wants to UnDo ReDos and ReDo UnDos is gonna show at
           the show.
JoySchtick Marty, that guy will probably be in a padded room by then  :)
AFL Marty  LOL
AFL Scott  Personally, I hated the Arc tools... I wrote my own... Bezier
           curves and
AFL Scott  BSplines... only way to fly.
AFL Marty  BSpline?
AFL Scott  Yeah... a drafting like tool where one can change the shape of the
           curve by
AFL Scott  moving the points that define the curve.
AFA Gary J Scott, do you have a good reference for that type of programming?
            (textbook)
AFA Gary J (or know of one?)
A2GS       Scott where'd you get the algorithms from?
A2GS       Pulling points.
AFL Scott  Sure.... I've got Foley and Van Dam... 
A2GS       Do they have Arc algo. ?
AFL Scott  Computer Graphics Software construction... Lots o code in there...
           but the
AFL Scott  code can be made better...
A2GS       Who makes CGS?
AFA Gary J All it takes it the basic concept, and it's not too hard to take
           off from there
AFA Gary J with improvements to examples.
AFL Scott  Right.. Computer Graphics Software Construction has tons of Pascal
           code just
AFL Scott  waiting to be hacked!
A2GS       Who publishes CGS, Scott?
A2GS       CGSC
AFL Scott  Prentice Hall... By Rankin.
A2GS       Any good Arc and Ellipse algorithms?
AFA Gary J Thanks for the book tip, Scott.
AFL Scott  You're welcome...:)
A2GS       Thanx for the info.